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2012 CBA/Lockout talk Part VII..Will a deal get done..

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01-04-2013, 01:13 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by thegodfather View Post
The TSN insiders touched on this the other night. They were shocked when it was leaked that there was a mediator involved in these last set of negotiations.

I would assume though that both parties would have to agree and I would think it's the same group as last time. I guess if you agree to the mediator your pretty much saying you trust them.
thank you Don Corleone. Wasn't sure if the mediator was picked b y them or was thrust upon them. Sounds like the former.

And of course.....thank you for inviting me to the daughters wedding of yours. no wait....thank you for your daughters weddings...just a sec....I would like to thank you from my hearts bottom....etc. - Luca Brasi

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01-04-2013, 01:16 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Number8 View Post
As payback for this mess, I've committed to not spending a dime on the NHL directly for this season (assuming they have one). I'll watch on TV I have no doubt, but beyond that nothing.

However, if they push it to February 16th -- or something along those lines -- I'll do everything in my power not to even watch on TV. Not sure if I'll be able to hold to that, but at some point you have to stand on principle.

They clearly don't care one iota about their fans, and I'm going to try in some capacity to demonstrate in my tiny little way that that attitude comes at a cost. Enough is enough.
I've done the same thing. My wife even commented on it before Christmas, as she knew I would be unhappy if one of my kids bought his cousing a Ryan Miller jersey for Christmas (he lives in Rochester, and is a goalie, so I can understand. sort of!) because it would be giving money to the NHL. I even had to think about wheter or not to put my Bruins ornaments on my tree (I eventually did). But I definitely won't be spending any money on game tickets or merchandise. Funny thing is, almost every one of my hockey-loving fans have said the same thing.

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01-04-2013, 01:16 PM
  #978
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Point - OOG has mentioned jan 20th as the drop dead date and said this is what the league is looking at as reasonable, but B eye thinks this will go to the last minute because Fehr is trying to suck this lemon dry. Unfortunately it looks like Fehr is the alpha dog in this fight and things will come to a head when he says so, which begs the question...what does Fehr consider the last minute? I know i sound like a broken record on this feb 16th date but I have to believe that Fehr looks at that and thinks if Bettman was willing to go that far into the season before, then he'll do it again. my 2 cents.
Again, Dom will have more informed info than I do, I'm just parroting what I have read from wasting way too much time following this mess lately while hoping it is ending soon.

My read on the drop dead stuff: This originates from Bettman's statements. It is believed, and probably confirmed though the info out there just seems like a haze at this point, that Bettman has said that a deal has to be "done" by Jan 11th, so camps can open Jan 12th, and games could begin Jan 19th. That would yield (at least) a 48 game schedule that would meet his phantom criteria for a legitimate season.

One problem I have is that if the deal is going to be "done," i.e., signed, by Jan 11th, then agreement in principle has to happen very soon, like in the next 3 or so days, so the lawyers can then get to work writing up the contract. As I have said and as anybody here involved in contract work knows, what you get in writing from lawyers always introduces points of contention and you have to pound that stuff out over a few days until it is finalized and can then be signed. This has been a problem for the NHL, in fact, as we saw this week when the union "found" some language in the contract from the NHL that was at odds with what was expected (pertaining to HRR).

So, if you work backwards from signing happening Jan 11th, agreement has to happen at least 2-4 days in advance of that IMO, so the attorneys can do their thing.

Dom could say more about whether Fehr is working from the same reality as outlined above or whether he has his own notion of a drop dead date, etc. I think it would be extremely risky if he flirts with the Jan 11th date as if they could go past that without a signed deal - I'm not sure any such latitude exists but then what do I know really...

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01-04-2013, 01:17 PM
  #979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pie O My View Post
Thanks to OOG and Black eye for clarifying some points for me a few pages back regarding what issues have been resolved for good, VS what is outstanding.

Couple of other points and questions for you guys:

Point - OOG has mentioned jan 20th as the drop dead date and said this is what the league is looking at as reasonable, but B eye thinks this will go to the last minute because Fehr is trying to suck this lemon dry. Unfortunately it looks like Fehr is the alpha dog in this fight and things will come to a head when he says so, which begs the question...what does Fehr consider the last minute? I know i sound like a broken record on this feb 16th date but I have to believe that Fehr looks at that and thinks if Bettman was willing to go that far into the season before, then he'll do it again. my 2 cents.

Question - OOG, what have you heard about this mediator? How was he chosen? Did both sides have to agree to him and do both sides trust him?

(a little late on this but it is good having black eye back to posting on here more often)
The mediator is U.S. federal mediator Scot Beckenbaugh, a very well respected mediator. He is the deputy director of mediation services.

He was never chosen by the league or NHLPA. He offered (along with others) to mediate back in November and both the league and PA agreed. (The league had been unwilling to prior to then)

He's very well respected by both sides and believe he was also involved in the NFL and NBA mediation (don't follow either sport so I'm not positive). And he has brought them closer together than they would be if he wasn't present. He needs to be given a lot of credit IMO.

Where it goes from here is anyone's guess. I thought the PA would have filed the disclaimer last time, but certainly will this time as many players are peeved that they didn't. And the PA has responded in court to the leagues court action which will start next week.

Beckenbaugh has a tough job to try and get this settled by then. I'm not also sure whether he'll remain as mediator if the PA disclaims either, since there will be no union to negotiate with. As I've said before, that's where agents come in led by Pat Brisson to negotiate on behalf of the players. NHL won't sign the waiver to allow both Fehrs (as the tweet I posted earlier says) in the negotiations, but they'll be running the show from outside.

Oh, and the drop dead date is Jan 11.

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01-04-2013, 01:17 PM
  #980
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Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post

Read more: Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slapsh...#ixzz2H230HNnW


i swear, I hope the players say they will only sign the deal if Bettman loses his job.

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01-04-2013, 01:18 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
That's what I have never fully understood - the net $ the players walk away with from all this will be less than it could have been just by virtue of the lost games and revenue/salaries. Somewhere there exists an explanation, a rationale, that makes sense of this but I haven't come across it yet.

If you are looking for cues as to what to expect, I guess Fehr's non-filing of the disclaimer of interest Wednesday is as good as any and it should yield a little optimism. By all accounts, Fehr was empowered to unilaterally file the motion if he wished to. And he did not. There is good and bad news in that:

Good news: It is made plain once again that D Fehr's goal here, the end game, is to wring as much as possible out of the negotiating process without actually losing the whole season. And he must believe they are close to the end and within striking distance of the deal the players will accept. Otherwise he would have take the step that could have destabilized the situation. Fehr more or less tipped his hand here. Some say he doesn't care about hockey or the damage the lockout is causing. I see it differently. All parties have more or less agreed that a "48 game season" would be "acceptable" and that has become both the outcome and the deadline they are working against. Fehr is just wringing every drop he can out of the time available. The non-filing indicates that he is working within that "let's have a short season" construct and sees it coming to pass and is not really interested in blowing it up. Unless things go off the rails somehow - which may or may not have been set in motion unfortunately.

Bad news: Because things got rocky again on Thursday, and the union decided to resurrect the disclaimer tool to serve as their stick in negotiations, this once again pops up as an element or risk. The timing is just unfortunate and has been bungled IMO. They put themselves in the position where they had to put the disclaimer tool a bit too early, got burned a little by that, and now have to go back to it again. This creates a distraction and angst at a time when they should be forging ahead. And because Fehr did not file last time, that indicates that the disclaimer move would be disruptive, yet here it is again. Essentially we want that to go away and not fluxor things up at the end. There is little margin for error when it comes to inflaming the hard liners and hopefully nobody blunders when it comes to keeping those types in check.

Point is, you should probably view what's going on as just the death throes of an ugly, extremely trying and tedious process that we all hate but which has an endpoint and an outcome that most involved seem to have tacitly accepted for some time. The daily drama and flare-ups indicate some real risk and puts us through the ringer, but hopefully they keep it together enough to button this up in the next week. Fehr seems to be acting as if this is the path he believes they are on...
It will be interesting to see what deadline the new disclaimer vote (I assume it will pass again) will carry. Whatever it is, dollars to donuts that that will be a deadline that will not pass without a finalized CBA in hand. Having decided not to file once, unless they are actually in the physical process of signing the actual agreement, PA cannot afford to appear to be crying wolf a second time.

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01-04-2013, 01:19 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Pie O My View Post
thank you Don Corleone. Wasn't sure if the mediator was picked b y them or was thrust upon them. Sounds like the former.

And of course.....thank you for inviting me to the daughters wedding of yours. no wait....thank you for your daughters weddings...just a sec....I would like to thank you from my hearts bottom....etc. - Luca Brasi
Just snagged this off the TSN website.

The NHL Players' Association says it is meeting internally on Friday morning while awaiting the arrival of federal mediator Scot Beckenbaugh.

Beckenbaugh will be meeting separately with both the league and the players in what the NHLPA describes as "shuttle mediation."

The union says that there are currently no formal, large group meetings scheduled with the league at this point.

The NHLPA confirmed that players who are present at meetings in New York are Chris Campoli, Mathieu Darche, Shane Doan, Andrew Ference, Ron Hainsey, Jamal Mayers, George Parros, and Kevin Westgarth.

Progress towards a new collective bargaining agreement took a sidestep on Thursday as only two smaller group meetings over hockey-related revenue and pensions took place. The NHLPA also held a conference call on Thursday afternoon, with the players holding a 48-hour vote to give the executive board the authority once again to file a disclaimer of interest.

According to TSN Hockey Insider Pierre LeBrun, both sides did make some progress through Wednesday's talks on the following issues:

- The NHLPA agreed to go to 10 years in CBA length, matching the NHL's desire on term for the deal (although the NHLPA has an opt out after Year 7 while the NHL would prefer one after Year 8).

- The NHL agreed to the NHLPA's request to up its compliance buyout to two per team, up from one per team before the 2013-14 season.

- The NHL upped its salary variance rule on contracts to 30 percent, up from the five percent and then 10 percent demands it had had in previous offers.

However, sources tell TSN that seven or eight unresolved issues remain, the three most meaningful ones being the second-year cap number, the length of player contacts and the players' pension.

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01-04-2013, 01:20 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post

Read more: Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slapsh...#ixzz2H230HNnW


i swear, I hope the players say they will only sign the deal if Bettman loses his job.
Wow, that's a pretty bad misstep at this juncture. It's fine if that's all true and GMs believe that but it has no place in the conversations while they are trying to get this done.

I guess that explains the sudden rush to bring back the disclaimer tool and why the players seem mad again... and they're not meeting directly... and...

That's a pretty bad sign I guess. That's "bulletin board material" as they say.

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01-04-2013, 01:24 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post

Read more: Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slapsh...#ixzz2H230HNnW


i swear, I hope the players say they will only sign the deal if Bettman loses his job.
Right. It's the players' fault because clubs can't have any type of restraint and offer stupid contracts like the DiPietro and Kovalchuk deals. They're supposed to say, "hold on just a minute. I feel like I should take a four year deal instead of fifteen." People get on Harry Sinden for being cheap for all of those years, and maybe they're right, but at least he had the sense to walk away instead of getting into bidding wars. And now Boston will be at a disadvantage because Chiarelli did a pretty good job at managing the cap and doesn't have any stupid contracts that he needs to buy out. There should be consequences when you make a bad decision. Your club suffers. No free passes. No loophole, back loaded contracts like the Savard deal that are designed to circumvent the cap. Set some rules in place and have some accountability for cripes sakes.

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01-04-2013, 01:25 PM
  #985
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lol of course there are GM's who would like to dismantle their teams. What last place GM wouldn't?

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01-04-2013, 01:25 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post

Read more: Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slapsh...#ixzz2H230HNnW


i swear, I hope the players say they will only sign the deal if Bettman loses his job.
This has been my number one gripe with the owners' position from the start. They give huge contracts with one side of their mouth, and complain about not being able to make money with the other side. I know it's way more complicated an issue than that, but that one thing has really been stuck in my craw against the owners' side since the start.

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01-04-2013, 01:25 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post

Read more: Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slapsh...#ixzz2H230HNnW


i swear, I hope the players say they will only sign the deal if Bettman loses his job.
he really said that???

What a tool!!!

Someone needs to kick his ass for that. I mean really does he NOT want a season. Your in negotiations why TRY and piss off the other side.

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01-04-2013, 01:26 PM
  #988
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Lou, what do you think, is that a backbreaker that again galvanizes the players or do they shrug it off to get something done?

When you couple that type of thing with the "sneaky change to the HRR language" that turned up (though accounts of what happened there varied) and the pension issue being done then undone, it seems like stupid stuff is happening that shoots this process in the foot.

I don't know, that news is not good news...

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01-04-2013, 01:26 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post

Read more: Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slapsh...#ixzz2H230HNnW


i swear, I hope the players say they will only sign the deal if Bettman loses his job.

Now that is a kick in the nuts.

I can see it now. Bettman comes out to award the Stanley Cup to the winning teams capt. and he refuses to accept until Bettman leaves the ice...

I wonder though how long Bettman's leash is..

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01-04-2013, 01:27 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post

Read more: Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slapsh...#ixzz2H230HNnW


i swear, I hope the players say they will only sign the deal if Bettman loses his job.
Boo-****ing-hoo.

Man these players have some thin skin.

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01-04-2013, 01:27 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by Ference the Finger View Post
This has been my number one gripe with the owners' position from the start. They give huge contracts with one side of their mouth, and complain about not being able to make money with the other side. I know it's way more complicated an issue than that, but that one thing has really been stuck in my craw against the owners' side since the start.
I agree to a point but I see why they do it. Really they have to in order to stay competitive for UFA's and such. All it takes is one owner willing to pay the guy you want and it becomes a bidding way under the rules of the CBA. They want to put rules in place to stop that one owner from making eveyone one else have to make the big offers.

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01-04-2013, 01:28 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Dom explain this to me...

this would seem to indicate that the players aren't happy with Fehr. But doesn't he serve at their pleasure? If they don't want him representing them any longer, why is he? Why not just remove him today, disclaimer or no disclaimer?
Look, the best way I can explain this is to post an email I got from someone I know that works at the PA. It involves a Bruin player that I will not name and a big name player that I will not name.

Couple of people have seen the email and they are sworn to secrecy so I hope they don't name names

Quote:
Dominic Tiano dominictiano@gmail.com

Dom

Here’s an interesting tidbit for you following the Player’s conference call yesterday. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to participate during the call but got all the details.

After a long discussion, a heated argument occurred between *** and ***. When *** said he firmly believes they should hold the present course *** said:
“You make 10 times more than I do. I have maybe two years remaining and you have a dozen. You make in half a season what I make in four years. Are you going to reimburse me for what I **** lose so that you can keep all your money?”

The division among the players is widening with each passing day and personally, I am surprised not more players have come out publicly and spoken out about it. I would hazard to guess that if it were to be brought to a vote today, it’d be in the neighbourhood of a 60-40 split in favor of staying the course. One thing Don has done is keep the players in line and not speak out against the union, at least for the most part.

I’ll be in Mississauga on Sunday for the Steelheads’ game. Let me know if you will be there and we’ll hook up!

Regards
***
Now, I can't say when it was written other than it was in 2012.

This should answer your question and anyone elses

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01-04-2013, 01:28 PM
  #993
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Originally Posted by smithformeragent View Post
Right. It's the players' fault because clubs can't have any type of restraint and offer stupid contracts like the DiPietro and Kovalchuk deals. They're supposed to say, "hold on just a minute. I feel like I should take a four year deal instead of fifteen." People get on Harry Sinden for being cheap for all of those years, and maybe they're right, but at least he had the sense to walk away instead of getting into bidding wars. And now Boston will be at a disadvantage because Chiarelli did a pretty good job at managing the cap and doesn't have any stupid contracts that he needs to buy out. There should be consequences when you make a bad decision. Your club suffers. No free passes. No loophole, back loaded contracts like the Savard deal that are designed to circumvent the cap. Set some rules in place and have some accountability for cripes sakes.
could not have said it better myself.

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01-04-2013, 01:31 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post

Read more: Gary Bettman angers players, slows talks by saying some GMs would like to 'dismantle' teams http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slapsh...#ixzz2H230HNnW


i swear, I hope the players say they will only sign the deal if Bettman loses his job.
Never know what to think about Brooks.

That said, if Bettman really said this he is a fool.

There are so many reasons why this is a stupid comment to make it's not even worth thinking about.

However, what is worth spending some time on is the question of WHY he would make such a comment. Outside of being an argumentative fool, I can't think of a single reason why Bettman could possibly think such a comment would gain him a centimeter -- let alone enough ground to justify the obvious risks of making such a foolish comment at such a pivotal time.

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01-04-2013, 01:31 PM
  #995
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