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Old
01-03-2013, 11:59 PM
  #351
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Reinhart looked very pedestrian in the games I've watched, to be honest. I think this might've been a really bad pick, and one that should've been avoided. He's big and that's about it.

He doesn't use his size in a physical manner. He doesn't have offensive skill. I don't know what else to say.

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01-04-2013, 12:11 AM
  #352
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Agree with this. These four were not difference makers, weren't asked to be, did a good job in the role they were asked to play. Unfortunately, the "big three" offensive guys were terrible, far inferior to the US dmen by comparison. I expected far more from Hamilton. Rielly was "okay" in spurts, had the occasional nice rush, but generally ineffective in generating offense. Murphy either tried (and failed) to rush the puck end to end or looked lost trying to defend without the puck.
I don't want to take up an Isles' prospect thread discussing two non-Islander prospects, but just briefly, I think the difference I saw in the tournament between Rielly and Murphy is this. Rielly struggled, but when he was on, you saw the type of potential he has at the next level. You saw the kind of player he could become. With Murphy, all I saw was a guy with a bomb of a shot and a great skater, but who seemed to lack hockey sense and was positionally lost in the defensive zone, literally as though he wasn't sure most of the time where to stand.

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01-04-2013, 01:16 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I don't want to take up an Isles' prospect thread discussing two non-Islander prospects, but just briefly, I think the difference I saw in the tournament between Rielly and Murphy is this. Rielly struggled, but when he was on, you saw the type of potential he has at the next level. You saw the kind of player he could become. With Murphy, all I saw was a guy with a bomb of a shot and a great skater, but who seemed to lack hockey sense and was positionally lost in the defensive zone, literally as though he wasn't sure most of the time where to stand.
I was expecting more from Rielly, especially given the fact that Canada really lacked offense from the dmen. I was shocked at how poorly they were offensively, their first pass on the breakout was horrid and on the PP the lacked movement and getting through to the net.

I liked Murphy in his draft year but he seems to have not developed at all, probably regressed. There's a perfect example of a hot-shot prospect who really needs to adjust his game in order to play in the NHL. I made the same point about Rielly, though I haven't seen him as much and in the limited viewings, he looks more impressive than Murphy (in that he doesn't take as many risks and seems to have an instinct on when to pick his spot and rush the puck) - solid player.

Separately, I'm not sure when the Pens amassed so many solid dmen prospects - Maata (not great this WJC but impressive in London), Harrington, Despres, Pouliott, Morrow - nice collection. Damn. Harrington was the best CDN dman overall. (not saying much, this year though)

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Originally Posted by LetsGoIslanders View Post
Reinhart looked very pedestrian in the games I've watched, to be honest. I think this might've been a really bad pick, and one that should've been avoided. He's big and that's about it.

He doesn't use his size in a physical manner. He doesn't have offensive skill. I don't know what else to say.
He did look pedestrian but very few dmen stood out for Canada in this tournament, especially those who were supposed to carry the offense. Reinhart was not noticeable unless you were watching him and for this tournament, that was his job. I thought he was pretty good last year, offensively, and showed real promise. So far this year, he's not progressed offensively (at least not statistically) but he's exactly what the NYI need.

Maybe you expected more from a #4 overall. Even Rielly at #5 showed flashes of Brian Leetch and has made some spectacular rushes this season, looking healthy and promising but I don't project Rielly to be a sure-fire NHLer as much as Reinhart, albeit he's got a higher offensive upside.

I know many are in love with Trouba and he's looked great at times but I'm happy with Reinhart and his potential going forward. Looking at the Isles defense if the season were to start in January, I'd say Reinhart is probably a #5 dman based on ability to play in the NHL TODAY (Streit, Hamonic, Visnovsky and MacDonald ahead of him) - that's not necessarily a compliment on Reinhart as much as a glimpse into how much work $now has ahead of him if there's a season.
----

And on Strome. If anyone's not impressed with his WJC then they weren't watching. I thought he was excellent, only Nugent-Hopkins was the better forward (except today, he was terrible while Strome played very well). He sees the ice so well, uses the boards very well, makes the safe play when he's under pressure and I love the way he knows exactly what he's going to do once he gets the puck on his stick. He knows where all the players are and can make quick, smart passes, especially deadly on the PP (except coach Spott didn't play him enough on the PP for some odd reason, especially with Ritchie and Hamilton!!!)

I still maintain he needs more time in the CHL and possibly the AHL next season but he's improved drastically from last year. Still a bit small, not super quick with his feet, not aggressive and he'll need to learn to play in traffic but offensively, he's as good as anyone his age. And that's why he was drafted.

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01-04-2013, 06:26 AM
  #354
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http://http://www.worldjunior2013.co...rt-suspension/

Reinhart suspended four games, will miss bronze medal game.

Quote:
This means that Griffin Reinhart cannot play in the bronze medal game with Canada versus Russia on January 5, and is not eligible to play in the first three games of the next IIHF championship in which he may participate.

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01-04-2013, 08:03 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
http://http://www.worldjunior2013.co...rt-suspension/

Reinhart suspended four games, will miss bronze medal game.
That could hurt him when they pick teams next year. He would have been a lock next year, but can you really pick a guy who is guaranteed to miss half the games?

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01-04-2013, 08:34 AM
  #356
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Two things stand out in this discussion about Reinhart.

1. When Snow drafts the exciting, quickly rising youngster (Nino/Strome), he's criticized for it. Accused of reaching, accused of choosing flash over substance.

When he takes the safe pick, there's someone on the other side of the fence, complaining he didn't take the flashy, exciting prospect.

2.Have some fans transferred the worrying, nailbiting and overreaction over Strome early in the season, to Reinhart ?

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01-04-2013, 08:52 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Two things stand out in this discussion about Reinhart.

1. When Snow drafts the exciting, quickly rising youngster (Nino/Strome), he's criticized for it. Accused of reaching, accused of choosing flash over substance.

When he takes the safe pick, there's someone on the other side of the fence, complaining he didn't take the flashy, exciting prospect.

2.Have some fans transferred the worrying, nailbiting and overreaction over Strome early in the season, to Reinhart ?
You are describing two different groups of people. Their are also the neutrals. I remember the arguments prior to the draft on precisely this. I was not in the "Reinhart is what I wanted" group.

I think it comes down to upside. Prospects with questionable upside should not have high expectations. #4 over picks come with high expectations no matter who is picked.

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01-04-2013, 09:42 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Two things stand out in this discussion about Reinhart.

1. When Snow drafts the exciting, quickly rising youngster (Nino/Strome), he's criticized for it. Accused of reaching, accused of choosing flash over substance.

When he takes the safe pick, there's someone on the other side of the fence, complaining he didn't take the flashy, exciting prospect.

2.Have some fans transferred the worrying, nailbiting and overreaction over Strome early in the season, to Reinhart ?
yes everyone is over critical of first rounds picks..to be honest most of canada's d did not stand out.. hamiliton was average at best...this is such a small sample size i'm not ready to bail on anyone over 7 games

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01-04-2013, 10:03 AM
  #359
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Thursday

Barrie 4, Niagara 1-Theoret, even ,Graham, -2.

Friday, WJC Relegation

Finland 11, Slovakia 4-Pokka, 2 assists, + 3.
Final tournament stats-GP 6, G 2, A 4, + 10.

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01-04-2013, 10:13 AM
  #360
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Thursday

Barrie 4, Niagara 1-Theoret, even ,Graham, -2.

Friday, WJC Relegation

Finland 11, Slovakia 4-Pokka, 2 assist, + 3.
Final tournament stats-GP 6, G 2, A 4, + 10.
Finland woke up a little too late. Could have been a MUCH different Medal round. Glad to see Pokka putting up impressive numbers. Wish I got to see more Finland matches this year. Hopefully he continues to play well in the mens league and the Islanders can sign him to an ELC this off-season. He would be eligible to play for Bridgeport next year as a 19 year old.

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01-04-2013, 10:24 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by InformTheMasses View Post
Finland woke up a little too late. Could have been a MUCH different Medal round. Glad to see Pokka putting up impressive numbers. Wish I got to see more Finland matches this year. Hopefully he continues to play well in the mens league and the Islanders can sign him to an ELC this off-season. He would be eligible to play for Bridgeport next year as a 19 year old.
Good thing, even if he does come over he can play in the World Junior again. He's done very
well in the 2 WJC's he's been in.

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01-04-2013, 11:07 AM
  #362
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Pokka was the best D of Finland. He played more or less its own level. Noteworthy was the fact that his +/- was +10 and he was not on ice when opponent makes a single goal 5on5 game. I look forward to see him in next year`s WJC in Malmö. If you islander fans like, I can write more of his games in Finland over here?

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01-04-2013, 11:17 AM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StumpNYI View Post
You are describing two different groups of people. Their are also the neutrals. I remember the arguments prior to the draft on precisely this. I was not in the "Reinhart is what I wanted" group.

I think it comes down to upside. Prospects with questionable upside should not have high expectations. #4 over picks come with high expectations no matter who is picked.
In a 6-7 game series, it's just kind of silly to see fans trying to climb out on the ledge, over a 19 yr old.

I see some fans are unimpressed with RNH and Nail's play in this tournament. I guess NYI fans aren't the only ones overreacting.

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01-04-2013, 11:17 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Lumisade31 View Post
Pokka was the best D of Finland. He played more or less its own level. Noteworthy was the fact that his +/- was +10 and he was not on ice when opponent makes a single goal 5on5 game. I look forward to see him in next year`s WJC in Malmö. If you islander fans like, I can write more of his games in Finland over here?
Since you see him your updates would be great since we haven't seen him since none of Finland's
WJC were on TV here (they just showed the bracket with Canada, USA, Russia). If you have time,
please comment on his skating ability. Pokka looks like a very smart player from the few clips I have seen. Looking forward to your reports. thanks.

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01-04-2013, 11:37 AM
  #365
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I'll take a stab at Reinhart using this as a comparison. Frankly after Strome was drafted he did not
make what appeared to be much of an improvement. This season the skating, strength and approach to play a complete game are clear to see. Agree above with Sidney, Griff is not close to NHL ready as some say.

Reinhart needs more time with that lanky body,work on his skating, ect. Would like to see him
grow in confidence and try to do more things next year, maybe not be afraid to too safe. He has enough instincts that the decisions he makes will be the right ones, he needs to trust himself more.
Hope that next season the improvement is clear to see like it is from Strome this year. Proof again
that everyone develops at a different rate.

Just my thoughts, could be dead wrong but wanted to say the above.

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01-04-2013, 11:41 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by NYI78 View Post
yes everyone is over critical of first rounds picks..to be honest most of canada's d did not stand out.. hamiliton was average at best...this is such a small sample size i'm not ready to bail on anyone over 7 games
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
In a 6-7 game series, it's just kind of silly to see fans trying to climb out on the ledge, over a 19 yr old.

I see some fans are unimpressed with RNH and Nail's play in this tournament. I guess NYI fans aren't the only ones overreacting.
It really is remarkable how highly some people value this tournament. Not to say it doesn't matter, but it seems to be causing people to do complete 180's on certain prospects. Dougie Hamilton has gone from best defensive prospect to a future bust, while Jacob Trouba is currently the top defender from the 2012 draft(and maybe the top defender, period). Even Morgan Rielly, the untouchable Morgan Rielly, has fallen off due to this tournament.

It's funny to think that a couple of weeks ago Reinhart was a lock-down defender who had been dominating the WHL(defensively, at least). Now, he apparently sucks and has no upside. Makes me wonder how hyped Blake Comeau was after his WJC run. I can't remember, but were people predicting 1st-line RW at that time?

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01-04-2013, 11:59 AM
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
I'll take a stab at Reinhart using this as a comparison. Frankly after Strome was drafted he did not
make what appeared to be much of an improvement. This season the skating, strength and approach to play a complete game are clear to see. Agree above with Sidney, Griff is not close to NHL ready as some say.

Reinhart needs more time with that lanky body,work on his skating, ect. Would like to see him
grow in confidence and try to do more things next year, maybe not be afraid to too safe. He has enough instincts that the decisions he makes will be the right ones, he needs to trust himself more.
Hope that next season the improvement is clear to see like it is from Strome this year. Proof again
that everyone develops at a different rate.

Just my thoughts, could be dead wrong but wanted to say the above.
dead right. No one can dispute that a player is ready when they are ready.....only that some feel a player is ready when they tie their skates right and some wait til his overall game is solid.

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01-04-2013, 12:02 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Since you see him your updates would be great since we haven't seen him since none of Finland's
WJC were on TV here (they just showed the bracket with Canada, USA, Russia). If you have time,
please comment on his skating ability. Pokka looks like a very smart player from the few clips I have seen. Looking forward to your reports. thanks.
Finlands news-site gave rating for each Finnish player on team. Here´s what they write on Pokka. Ville Pokka: Best defender of Finland. The composure and the daring were enough for the courageous playing even when the rest of the team was trembling. Spared the goal for a relegation round, but otherwise playing with the puck was secure and good. Was also good on own end, and formed best d-pair with Linbohm. I used translator so hope you can understand what i write =).

And what you`ve asked about his skating ability. I don`t see that it`s gonna be a problem. He`s not the fastest skater, but what I have seen is that his skating style looks like he is very slow, but he is always right side of the opponent. If you know what I mean. He replace his skating on a good positioning.

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01-04-2013, 12:05 PM
  #369
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Separately, I'm not sure when the Pens amassed so many solid dmen prospects - Maata (not great this WJC but impressive in London), Harrington, Despres, Pouliott, Morrow - nice collection. Damn. Harrington was the best CDN dman overall. (not saying much, this year though)
It comes at the expense of having a horrible group of forward prospects. After Beau Bennett, there's not much in the cupboard. So hopefully the defensemen do pan out so they either replace the current group with cheap guys on ELC and funds can be used for forwards, or they can be dealt for similar forward prospects.

Oddly enough, I think of all those names you mentioned, Harrington's the closest to a guarantee to be an NHLer. He doesn't have the highest upside; that would be either Morrow or Pouliot. But he's the one whose defensive game is very strong.

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That could hurt him when they pick teams next year. He would have been a lock next year, but can you really pick a guy who is guaranteed to miss half the games?
I don't think it will affect his chances at all. Boone Jenner got a 3-game suspension this year in one of the exhibition games and missed time, but he was still kept on the team instead of being replaced by someone who could play in all the games.

Plus, the first three games are just Round Robin. I don't want to underestimate their importance, but Canada certainly should be able to beat at least 2 of the 3 teams they face in those three games missing just one player.

With the graduations on defense, I'm sure Canada will want his experience and ability when the games matter in the medal rounds.

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01-04-2013, 12:20 PM
  #370
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I don't think it will affect his chances at all. Boone Jenner got a 3-game suspension this year in one of the exhibition games and missed time, but he was still kept on the team instead of being replaced by someone who could play in all the games.

Plus, the first three games are just Round Robin. I don't want to underestimate their importance, but Canada certainly should be able to beat at least 2 of the 3 teams they face in those three games missing just one player.

With the graduations on defense, I'm sure Canada will want his experience and ability when the games matter in the medal rounds.

Good points, I hadn't consider those. You may be right. I still think tomorrows game could have an impact. If Canada losses and goes home without a medal then the pressure on next years coaching staff and team is going to be HUGE. I don't think they would even want to mess around in the round robin portion and voluntarily start the tournament shorthanded (if they didn't have to). It depends on a lot of things, whose the coach, who are the teams in their pool, whats the schedule for the first 4 games. One thing is for sure though, the suspension certainly doesn't HELP his chances of making next years team.

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01-04-2013, 12:22 PM
  #371
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dead right. No one can dispute that a player is ready when they are ready.....only that some feel a player is ready when they tie their skates right and some wait til his overall game is solid.
What do you mean exactly by "solid overall game"? Because JT's overall game was far from solid when he was drafted, but I know you say it was the right move(or actually obvious, I think is what you've said) bringing him up from day one.

If Griff's defensive ability is ready for the NHL next season, I wouldn't care if his offensive game is miles away, I'd give him a shot in camp. One mediocre game playing in a restriced role doesn't really change the way I view him or his NHL-readiness(anyone saying this guy had a bad tournament probably only watched the last game against USA and combined that with his lack of points when drawing this conclusion). IMO he's still pretty close.

Especially when you consider he was better than Dougie Hamilton in this tournament. A guy who was a virtual lock to make an NHL team much harder to crack than the NYI. A team that won the Stanley Cup a year and a half ago.

I'm not saying Griff is an NHLer right now, but IMO he is pretty damn close defensively. The only thing holding him back at this point will be his skating quickness. He has a lot of time between now and September 2013 to improve that area, though.

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01-04-2013, 12:36 PM
  #372
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What do you mean exactly by "solid overall game"? Because JT's overall game was far from solid when he was drafted, but I know you say it was the right move(or actually obvious, I think is what you've said) bringing him up from day one.

If Griff's defensive ability is ready for the NHL next season, I wouldn't care if his offensive game is miles away, I'd give him a shot in camp. One mediocre game playing in a restriced role doesn't really change the way I view him or his NHL-readiness(anyone saying this guy had a bad tournament probably only watched the last game against USA and combined that with his lack of points when drawing this conclusion). IMO he's still pretty close.

Especially when you consider he was better than Dougie Hamilton in this tournament. A guy who was a virtual lock to make an NHL team much harder to crack than the NYI. A team that won the Stanley Cup a year and a half ago.

I'm not saying Griff is an NHLer right now, but IMO he is pretty damn close defensively. The only thing holding him back at this point will be his skating quickness. He has a lot of time between now and September 2013 to improve that area, though.
Regarding the bolded part above, do you really want to limit him as a player, though? If an extra year of junior means allowing that offensive game to develop, isn't that better than stunting one part of his game?

Whenever I think of situations like this, I think of a guy like Rusty Klesla. Coming out of junior, the guy had the potential to be a great two-way defenseman. His offensive game in junior was raw, but it was good. You saw the potential there, but it needed more time to refine. However, he was rushed to the NHL because his defensive game was close to NHL-ready, and ended up spending his development years being safe and dependable in his own zone, without having a chance to fully develop the offensive side. Now, at age 30 or whatever, he's known for his defensive play, but brings very little offense. A solid NHL player, but hardly the type you expect from a 3rd overall pick.

So whenever I see people say a player should make the NHL because one part of his game is NHL-ready, but the other parts aren't, I can't help but think of guys like Klesla who could have been so much more if they were allowed to develop all aspects of their game.

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01-04-2013, 12:38 PM
  #373
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What do you mean exactly by "solid overall game"? Because JT's overall game was far from solid when he was drafted, but I know you say it was the right move(or actually obvious, I think is what you've said) bringing him up from day one.

If Griff's defensive ability is ready for the NHL next season, I wouldn't care if his offensive game is miles away, I'd give him a shot in camp. One mediocre game playing in a restriced role doesn't really change the way I view him or his NHL-readiness(anyone saying this guy had a bad tournament probably only watched the last game against USA and combined that with his lack of points when drawing this conclusion). IMO he's still pretty close.

Especially when you consider he was better than Dougie Hamilton in this tournament. A guy who was a virtual lock to make an NHL team much harder to crack than the NYI. A team that won the Stanley Cup a year and a half ago.

I'm not saying Griff is an NHLer right now, but IMO he is pretty damn close defensively. The only thing holding him back at this point will be his skating quickness. He has a lot of time between now and September 2013 to improve that area, though.
I don't think, nor have I ever said, he has no offensive potential. I just personally have never seen any offense from him. I haven't seen him play a lot, but in these few games in both WHL and WJC I can't remember a single scoring chance. I don't remember him being past the top of the circles to be honest. That's about as stay-at-home as it gets. That is why I said before his upside is questionable. Always was if iirc.

I do think with Reinhart at a bare minimum, he is going to be a polished and much stronger version of the player he is right now. Nobody can say they don't want that on their team and I will be looking forward to that. But compared to where he was drafted, some people may expect more.

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01-04-2013, 12:38 PM
  #374
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What do you mean exactly by "solid overall game"? Because JT's overall game was far from solid when he was drafted, but I know you say it was the right move(or actually obvious, I think is what you've said) bringing him up from day one.

If Griff's defensive ability is ready for the NHL next season, I wouldn't care if his offensive game is miles away, I'd give him a shot in camp. One mediocre game playing in a restriced role doesn't really change the way I view him or his NHL-readiness(anyone saying this guy had a bad tournament probably only watched the last game against USA and combined that with his lack of points when drawing this conclusion). IMO he's still pretty close.

Especially when you consider he was better than Dougie Hamilton in this tournament. A guy who was a virtual lock to make an NHL team much harder to crack than the NYI. A team that won the Stanley Cup a year and a half ago.

I'm not saying Griff is an NHLer right now, but IMO he is pretty damn close defensively. The only thing holding him back at this point will be his skating quickness. He has a lot of time between now and September 2013 to improve that area, though.
I know you'd give him a shot at camp and 9 game tryout. That was my point. JT's game was solid.....for a young kid, his defense was acceptable (better than that we were surprised) and his offense was great. He earned it. His skating was mediocre, but much better than Nino's. That improved. Tavares could play an entire shift like a pro and moreover could play an entire game without being a detriment in the least.

Griff needs to mature. You have to cradle him a bit and allow him time to grow. He has to see the AHL as the logic is.....he's poised and solid now, he has to make the gradual climb and learn so as to be the SMART hockey player he is at a higher level. Time goes on and he gets called up and sees what he has to work on and he works in the AHL for a little and shapes his mental game all the while forging his improved physical, offensive and skating games. You bring him along carefully and if he shows he's ready for promotion, you promote him.

He is one type along with power forwards you ABSOLUTELY do not rush.

He and Nino mean way too much to rush. You want their games honed, polished and delivered with ribbons. Not rushed and compromised because you thought developing them in the toughest league in the world might yield better results than somewhere where they could maintain confidence, have room to grow and time to do so.

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01-04-2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by StumpNYI View Post
I don't think, nor have I ever said, he has no offensive potential. I just personally have never seen any offense from him. I haven't seen him play a lot, but in these few games in both WHL and WJC I can't remember a single scoring chance. I don't remember him being past the top of the circles to be honest. That's about as stay-at-home as it gets. That is why I said before his upside is questionable. Always was if iirc.

I do think with Reinhart at a bare minimum, he is going to be a polished and much stronger version of the player he is right now. Nobody can say they don't want that on their team and I will be looking forward to that. But compared to where he was drafted, some people may expect more.
He obviously has the offensive game but he has the smarts to not use it right now. He gradually introduced it into his game I believe in prior levels.

He's smart.

Remember KJ? He could have had a twenty goal season or two with his ability and brain, but he always chose the safe route, te smart route, and therein was his value.
Reinhart I bet will blossom in time into an offensive threat, but will be a tempered threat. Reserving chances for when he has room and time.

That's not a bad player to have. Maybe for stat junkies.

I'd be more concerned he starts hitting. Open ice hits, of course. (if he is what I believe he is, he will likely not use the boards or go out of his way to hit along the boards unless the play is there)

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