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NHL Lockout Discussion XLIV: The Night and the Silent Water

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Old
01-04-2013, 01:47 PM
  #751
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In happier news, Jose Canseco is hoping to run for mayor of Toronto.

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01-04-2013, 01:48 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
Can someone clarify something for me?

So Don Fehr wants to be able to file the disclaimer of interest.... but at the same time have the NHL sign a waiver so Steve and Bill can negotiate while the disclaimer is going on?


How many different ways can Don Fehr show that the disclaimer is a joke and a negotiation tactic before everyone sees what he's really up to?!

How can this guy sit in a room and negotiate with the NHL with the full support of the players but can pull out a letter at 11:59 pm saying "hey I didn't agree with what you said 10 minutes ago.... oops I'm fired here's a letter"

I am going crazy with this.

It's because the NFL and NBA signed a ''waiver'' with their player associations to keep negotiating after doing the DOI/decertifying that he wants it.

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01-04-2013, 01:48 PM
  #753
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Can someone clarify how buyouts would work?

If the a team excercised a buy out on, say, Gomez's contract. Does that mean it just comes out of the cap consideration and he's no longer on the team? Would he still get paid under the terms of his contract?

I always assumed a "buyout" was simply a tool for cap management.

If the above is true, why the NHLPA care if people with bad contracts were being bought out? They're still getting paid.

If they are not still getting paid, why on earth would the the NHLPA ever have suggested it in the first place?

Confused (not the first time).

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01-04-2013, 01:48 PM
  #754
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How would it support it? If hes choosing to walk away from the Union why should the league negotiate after he walks away?
To encourage the PA from actually blowing up the union and turning 2013 into UFA Thunderdome.

 
Old
01-04-2013, 01:48 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Yes, of course. Otherwise, the DOI means the season is gone the moment it's signed. By offering the wavier to the league, he's leaving a door open, in case the owners want to take one more swing at it while the PA pursues its own path.

There is no reasonable way to interpret this as a negative act.
If Donald Fehr feels his team is unable to negotiate for the NHLPA (DOI) then why would his team negotiate for the NHLPA.

It's negative because it is a sham.

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01-04-2013, 01:50 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
It's because the NFL and NBA signed a ''waiver'' with their player associations to keep negotiating after doing the DOI/decertifying that he wants it.
EXACTLY because it's so painfully obvious that it's a negotiation ploy and is something that is supposed to scare the NHL!!! The union doesn't want to de-certify. They talk about how much the trust and respect Fehr every freaking day! I personally believe that if Fehr doesn't wake up, the season will be cancelled next week and the court battles will start and Fehr will get a rude awakening in court because no one has ever taken him that far. Bettman and Daly aren't scared by this clown.

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01-04-2013, 01:50 PM
  #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbar View Post
Can someone clarify how buyouts would work?

If the a team excercised a buy out on, say, Gomez's contract. Does that mean it just comes out of the cap consideration and he's no longer on the team? Would he still get paid under the terms of his contract?

I always assumed a "buyout" was simply a tool for cap management.

If the above is true, why the NHLPA care if people with bad contracts were being bought out? They're still getting paid.

If they are not still getting paid, why on earth would the the NHLPA ever have suggested it in the first place?

Confused (not the first time).
These 2 buyouts are not regular buyouts these are to help teams get to the new cap # by yr2. They do not count against the cap and they pay out the remaining contract to the player over a extended number of yr's like regular buyouts.

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01-04-2013, 01:50 PM
  #758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbar View Post
Can someone clarify how buyouts would work?

If the a team excercised a buy out on, say, Gomez's contract. Does that mean it just comes out of the cap consideration and he's no longer on the team? Would he still get paid under the terms of his contract?
Yes for the team angle. No cap commitment at all.

No one knows how much the player would get paid in actual dollars though. It could be the same as the buyout rules - 66% of the money left. It could be 100%. This hasn't been specified to my knowledge.

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01-04-2013, 01:50 PM
  #759
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That's exactly the way the NHL should approach this. Don't let the NHLPA have their cake (we've disclaimed, see you in court!) and eat it too (but talk to Don until the trial date, ok thanks!).

Either the NHLPA is serious about dissolving and nuking the whole thing, in which case there will be no deal anyway, or they're bluffing, in which case the correct tactic for the NHL is to call the bluff.
I don't believe the NHLPA is serious; I think they saw the NBAPA & NFLPA use the tactic and "win", so they think they can, too. Bettman simply isn't going to fall for this foolishness, not this close to a real drop-dead date.

But then the NHLPA has been irrational for months, so who knows, maybe they are serious and would rather burn the whole thing to the ground than "lose". If that's what they want I wish they'd just get on with it already.
They're clearly bluffing. Bettman's threat to cancel the season over these few issues is also obviously a bluff. At this point, I think all of the cards are on the table and neither side can bluff the other.

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01-04-2013, 01:51 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
If Donald Fehr feels his team is unable to negotiate for the NHLPA (DOI) then why would his team negotiate for the NHLPA.

It's negative because it is a sham.
Giving the other side an option or a way out does not fit any meaningful definition of the word "sham".

The DOI says "we're in the process of closing this door". The waiver says "If you want, we'll keep working with you right up to the moment the door is firmly shut".

Absolutely nothing wrong with doing that...unless people think negotiating is supposed to look like the shootout at the OK Corrall...

 
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01-04-2013, 01:53 PM
  #761
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Don Fehr can't handle the fact that in 7-8 days he will go from a position of importance and prominence with millions of people everyday having eyes on him to nothing.


Every league has labor security, he is old and will be retired or dead by the time the next chance comes.

This is his swan song and he is milking it, and don't be shocked if he find's his way to a cancelled season, even if he is fired so what?

If he isn't fired he is still in the limelight for months maybe 6 months.


This is insane.

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01-04-2013, 01:54 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Giving the other side an option or a way out does not fit any meaningful definition of the word "sham".

The DOI says "we're in the process of closing this door". The waiver says "If you want, we'll keep working with you right up to the moment the door is firmly shut".

Absolutely nothing wrong with doing that...unless people think negotiating is supposed to look like the shootout at the OK Corrall...
Agreed. It's the equivalent of the NHL saying that they will cancel the season if there is no deal by Jan 11th. No one seriously thinks that Bettman will cancel the season over the remaining issues. Neither of these two guys can help themselves from using these tactics.

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01-04-2013, 01:54 PM
  #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Giving the other side an option or a way out does not fit any meaningful definition of the word "sham".

The DOI says "we're in the process of closing this door". The waiver says "If you want, we'll keep working with you right up to the moment the door is firmly shut".

Absolutely nothing wrong with doing that...unless people think negotiating is supposed to look like the shootout at the OK Corrall...

The door is supposed to be firmly shut the second Donald Fehr disclaims interest in union leadership. The league still has an "out" in the case of disclaimer that doesn't have to include Donald Fehr or Steve Fehr.

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01-04-2013, 01:54 PM
  #764
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Hamrlik on the same practice ice with Gorges and Gionta. Gotta be interesting.

More Hamrlik Quotes

I talked to some guys and some disagree and some agree, but they dont necessarily want to go to you guys (reporters) and say the truth or say what they think, he said. I earned the right to say what I think.

But its not about me or what anyone said. Its about compromise and making a fair deal on both sides, bringing the fans back and having fun playing the game.
God I love Hammer

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01-04-2013, 01:54 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
It's because the NFL and NBA signed a ''waiver'' with their player associations to keep negotiating after doing the DOI/decertifying that he wants it.
I would like to read more about this... About the NFL and NBA waivers... About the PA/Fehr specifically asking the NHL for this. Not the NHL telling reporters it wouldn't give the waiver to Fehr... Because, there's also word from the NHL that the PA never even broached the subject of DOI at all in their talks with the NHL.

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01-04-2013, 01:55 PM
  #766
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The back and forth in this thread is just disgusting. This is what the lock out has done to all of us.

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01-04-2013, 01:55 PM
  #767
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The door is supposed to be firmly shut the second Donald Fehr disclaims interest in union leadership.
Is that really what you would prefer? That the season officially gets toasted at that very moment, with no possibility of revival?

 
Old
01-04-2013, 01:55 PM
  #768
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Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
Don Fehr can't handle the fact that in 7-8 days he will go from a position of importance and prominence with millions of people everyday having eyes on him to nothing.
Every league has labor security, he is old and will be retired or dead by the time the next chance comes.

This is his swan song and he is milking it, and don't be shocked if he find's his way to a cancelled season, even if he is fired so what?

If he isn't fired he is still in the limelight for months maybe 6 months.


This is insane.
Now, if only we could come up with a way to getting Bettman to become nothing and for this to be his swan song. Maybe he'll try to stick around to see if he can oversee a fourth labour stoppage.

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01-04-2013, 01:55 PM
  #769
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
They're clearly bluffing. Bettman's threat to cancel the season over these few issues is also obviously a bluff. At this point, I think all of the cards are on the table and neither side can bluff the other.
How is ending a season at the drop dead date that would only see a 48 game season be bluffing?

Yep, they could stretch it out another week, maybe two, but the hassle and effort for anything less isn't worth the time as it would mean changing all schedules for teams and working around other arena commitments.

Last minute I don't think it's worth the headache for them.

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01-04-2013, 01:57 PM
  #770
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How is ending a season at the drop dead date that would only see a 48 game season be bluffing?

Yep, they could stretch it out another week, maybe two, but the hassle and effort for anything less isn't worth the time as it would mean changing all schedules for teams and working around other arena commitments.

Last minute I don't think it's worth the headache for them.
It's bluffing because the remaining issues are relatively minor and rational businessmen (like the owners are supposed to be) don't act like that.

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01-04-2013, 01:58 PM
  #771
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The back and forth in this thread is just disgusting. This is what the lock out has done to all of us.
It's actually far, far better than the average Montreal/Boston regular season thread. We'd be arguing no matter what; we just have fewer topics to argue about.

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01-04-2013, 01:58 PM
  #772
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ahh but that is all part of the product.....I take it you never owned a business.

The nachos are part of the product, the beer is part of the product, the person handing it to you is part of the product.it does not mean it is not part of the product.
You dont get to decide what part is the product....From buying your tickets, to parking to TV time outs, they are all part of THE product. NOT YOUR product.

They are all expenses, becuase you dont care about
The entertainment experience created by professional athletes is a product.

Nachos are a product. Beer is a product. I buy them because I want the experience of eating a nacho or drinking beer, not the experience of interacting for 20 seconds with someone who hands me the nachos or beer.

Handing someone a tray of nachos or a beer and saying "have a good one" is the transaction to buy the product, not the product itself. And it takes relatively little skill or education to conduction that transaction.

Given that teams mark up the price of concessions by a ridiculous degree makes your argument about the "expenses" of selling concession that much weaker. Teams hire people to sell nachos and beer because the can make a large profit doing so and because the cost to employe food service employees is pretty friggin cheap ... and it's cheap because they are easily replaceable, which isn't the case with NHL-caliber players.


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I never did argue that. I see it as more of a partnership with the owners having the bigger financial investment. But the people buying sweaters aren't getting Jacobs or Bettman's names on the back.
I've never bought a jersey with "concessions" above the numbers.

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01-04-2013, 01:58 PM
  #773
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Now, if only we could come up with a way to getting Bettman to nothing and this being his swan song. Maybe he'll try to stick around to see if he can oversee a fourth labour stoppage.

Gary Bettman has saved the NHL.

Unless your going to argue he should have caused a couple seasons to be lost in 1994-???? to ensure the leagues financial security he has actually saved the NHL from financial ruin.

I guess unless you are also going to argue for a 21-23 team league?

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01-04-2013, 01:58 PM
  #774
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Now, if only we could come up with a way to getting Bettman to nothing and this being his swan song. Maybe he'll try to stick around to see if he can oversee a fourth labour stoppage.
As baseless and inflammatory as the post to which you are responding was, this is no better. Bettman didn't choose to have this labour stoppage. The owners voted, and he does what his bosses want.

The sooner people stop complaining about one side or the other, the sooner this thread becomes a hub of information rather than of rhetoric.

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01-04-2013, 01:59 PM
  #775
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Is that really what you would prefer? That the season officially gets toasted at that very moment, with no possibility of revival?
No. If after DOI, Donald Fehr can be allowed to continue negotiating for the players, then what is stopping 700 other lawyers from doing the same thing? I would rather someone else do it if he feels he is not capable of it.

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