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NHL Lockout Discussion XLIV: The Night and the Silent Water

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Old
01-04-2013, 01:28 PM
  #851
NJDevs26
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
I don't necessarily believe the "drop dead" dates either... because I mean what if Bettman cancels the season next Thursday and Sunday night they magically agree on everything... then what?
I think there's some room in terms of hours or days if negotiations are progressing, sort of like the trade deadline where in theory trades have to be in by 3 PM but if you're in the middle of discussions you get an extra hour or two to finalize.

Any extension of this deadline has to come with the caveat that anything more than a bathroom break, season over.

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01-04-2013, 01:28 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
Do PA players like Hemsky or Havlat or Gaborik or any other healthy player for that matter REALLY want the owners to practice foresight and self control? That would result in one year contracts for everyone and a NMC would never be given out.
They probably don't, but it just goes to further show that all these owners aren't responsible businessmen and they view the lockout as a way to save them from their terrible practices.

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Old
01-04-2013, 01:28 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
Not positive about Gomez's contract - but let's just say that this is the remaining contract:

2013-14: $4M
2014-15: $2M
Total: $6M

Assuming a similar buy-out provision to the last CBA - MON could buy out Gomez for 66% of the remaining cash on his contract, ($6M x 66% = $4M, which would be spread out over twice the remaining contract term of 4 years). The REALLY important thing about this "amnesty buy-outs" is that they would not count against the Habs salary cap. Because it doesn't count against the cap, MON would then be able to pay an additional $7+M per year for NHLPA members.

As I understand it, the $4M in buy-out would count against the players HRR %, but that is reasonable from my perspective because those $'s are being paid to NHL members.

It should also be noted that all those "poor" players who are bought out will become UFA's and be able to sign another UFA contract. Given the limited talent pool available in the recent UFA markets, they won't have problems getting solid NHL contracts. I'd bet they'll at least be able to make up the 33% they "lost" in the buy-out process.
http://thehockeywriters.com/compliance-buyouts-nhl/

That pretty much explains in detail how buyouts work

The player is still paid in full
The team gets to remove his salary from their books for cap and luxury tax purposes
The player enters a bidding pool of teams that are under the salary cap
Teams can bid to assume some (but not all) of the player’s contract and the highest bidder is awarded the player
If no team claims the player, he becomes an unrestricted free agent

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Old
01-04-2013, 01:29 PM
  #854
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Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
This one was poorly handled by Gary and his team and the owners really. They should have started prepping the players on the NHL financials back in 2009 or so. They should have never assumed the NHL players would trust them just because they changed the paradigm in 2004 and helped change the league's direction and make the players boat loads of cash.
Like the NFL and the NBA did?

1-There was no surprise when the NBA asked for the moon and locked out the players, because over 2 years before (and about 1 year before CBA talks), the NBA had already informed in 2009 the Players their intention to seek a massive reduction in player salaries and a far more restrictive market for players...

2- The NFL battle lines were drawn 3 years before in 2008, when the NFL owners wrote that:

"the agreement isn't working, and we're looking to get a more fair and equitable deal."

Upshaw said Goodell's e-mail listed three reasons for the early termination: high labor costs, problems with the rookie pool and the league's inability, through the interpretation of the courts, to recoup bonuses of players who subsequently breach their contract or refuse to perform.

"The current labor agreement does not adequately recognize the cost of generating the revenues of which the players receive the largest shares; nor does the agreement recognize that those costs have increased substantially -- and at an ever increasing rate -- in recent years during a difficult economic climate in our country,"


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3404596


3-NHL: I guess we'll know in due time, what the PA was told by the NHL 3 years, 2 years and 1 year before about the state of the league and their needs (maybe in court filings)? Were the players ever given a heads up like the NBA and NFL players? Was it more than the public talk of record revenues ?

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01-04-2013, 01:29 PM
  #855
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My view of the NHLPA has dramatically changed after this whole thing.

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01-04-2013, 01:29 PM
  #856
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Sadly no one will care. They figure there is 100 other people to take her place.
Agree but if long term seasos are relinquishing their tickets it says a lot.

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01-04-2013, 01:30 PM
  #857
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My view of the NHLPA has dramatically changed after this whole thing.
In a positive way? Why?

Or in a negative way? And just today?

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01-04-2013, 01:30 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
This is exactly why I've been lambasting the league for that initial proposal since they put it on the table. They poisoned the well. It was stupid.

It's stupid the players are still offended and letting it affect them, but it was equally stupid for the league to set the negotiating table on fire as their opening salvo. No good has come of it.
It's exactly what the players asked for when they hired Fehr to represent them.

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01-04-2013, 01:30 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
DarrenDreger (Darren Dreger)
Mediator couldn't get 2 sides together to bargain yesterday and so far is failing today. Isn't that his job?

http://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/stat...77475451523072

No it isn't. The mediator can only do so much. If the two sides don't want to meet there's precious little that can be done short of using brute force.

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01-04-2013, 01:31 PM
  #860
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
DarrenDreger (Darren Dreger)
Mediator couldn't get 2 sides together to bargain yesterday and so far is failing today. Isn't that his job?

http://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/stat...77475451523072

So what exactly is the conversation?

Mediator: Don, do you want to go talk with the league?

Don: No.

Mediator: Why not?

Don: Because it's cold outside.

Mediator: OK then. You'd be late anyway.

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01-04-2013, 01:31 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by Thepainter View Post
My view of the NHLPA has dramatically changed after this whole thing.
Same here, before this whole mess I was with the players. I thought Bettman was a tool and I pretty much went along with the propaganda of Bettman is an idiot and he's ruining hockey bla bla bla. The players are as bad if not worse than Bettman is.

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01-04-2013, 01:31 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by WinterEmpire View Post
They probably don't, but it just goes to further show that all these owners aren't responsible businessmen and they view the lockout as a way to save them from their terrible practices.
Or maybe bad contracts are an accepted evil that most will deal with but will jump on a redo if given to them?

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01-04-2013, 01:32 PM
  #863
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No it isn't. The mediator can only do so much. If the two sides don't want to meet there's precious little that can be done short of using brute force.
Maybe that's what we need here. Hire some UFC guys as mediators.

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01-04-2013, 01:32 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Longtime NY Rangers season ticket holder stopped by 47th + 6th to chat. Says she will cancel on Monday without clear sign of agreement.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...75307688411136
Seems small, but between season ticket holders and sponsors, it's going to take a long time for the League to recover from this crap.

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Old
01-04-2013, 01:32 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Like the NFL and the NBA did?

1-There was no surprise when the NBA asked for the moon and locked out the players, because over 2 years before (and about 1 year before CBA talks), the NBA had already informed in 2009 the Players their intention to seek a massive reduction in player salaries and a far more restrictive market for players...

2- The NFL battle lines were drawn 3 years before in 2008, when the NFL owners wrote that:

"the agreement isn't working, and we're looking to get a more fair and equitable deal."

Upshaw said Goodell's e-mail listed three reasons for the early termination: high labor costs, problems with the rookie pool and the league's inability, through the interpretation of the courts, to recoup bonuses of players who subsequently breach their contract or refuse to perform.

"The current labor agreement does not adequately recognize the cost of generating the revenues of which the players receive the largest shares; nor does the agreement recognize that those costs have increased substantially -- and at an ever increasing rate -- in recent years during a difficult economic climate in our country,"


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3404596


NHL: I guess we'll know in due time, what the PA was told by the NHL 3 years, 2 years and 1 year before about the state of the league and their needs (maybe in court filings)? Were the players ever given a heads up like the NBA and NFL players? Was it more than the public talk of record revenues ?
Look at 04-05, The players knew what was coming and look at how that ended. I'm not sure how you can characterize it. I feel like the other unions are just smarter than the NHLPA. The NHLPA just seem to not get it.

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01-04-2013, 01:33 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by WinterEmpire View Post
They probably don't, but it just goes to further show that all these owners aren't responsible businessmen and they view the lockout as a way to save them from their terrible practices.
Depends what you consider 'responsible.' If they thought they could sign big contracts, then partially renege on them with no penalty via a new CBA, then it was just a calculated gamble. Not an ethical one, but there is nothing ethical about businesses in which billions of dollars are invested.

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01-04-2013, 01:33 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Under the new CBA the owners stand to do much better. So you can't just look at what they made last year. Again, why would a supposedly saavy business owner throw away hundreds of millions of dollars to get revenge on the players. I don't really care if their hockey profits make up a large portion of their wealth or not, most wealthy businessmen that I know don't think that way. They act rationally. They are not like fans who want the NHL to stick it to the players or vice versa. You need to show me how a rational businessman would throw away those profits and erode the value of his franchise assset over issues like pensions etc. That's why I think that they are bluffing right now and both sides know it.
I know I have been down this road with you before vanwest and, at times, I am somewhat compelled by your arguments. You state that the owners stand to do much better under the new CBA...there is no new CBA. Billionaires and millionaires, the wealthy businessmen you speak of do not get that way by allowing their employees to dictate the terms of their employment. Furthermore, you cannot group all of these owners into one group that all stand to lose 100's of millions of dollars. It's already been established that the top handful of teams make the lion's share of the dollars in the NHL while the remainder break even or show loss.

If you want to argue your position for say, the Toronto Maple Leafs, then I may agree with you. Or even the Rangers. But as a whole, your assessment of these wealthy business people tossing away hundreds of millions of dollars away is off target. What good is 200 million dollars if your operating costs are 205 million?? How many wealthy people do you know that are willing to operate a segment of their business knowing they are going to lose money and still do it anyways? I would guess the answer is none or few, the few being the previously wealthy.

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01-04-2013, 01:33 PM
  #868
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It's exactly what the players asked for when they hired Fehr to represent them.
Fehr was hired because Bettman was too aggressive to the players for 2 decades. He was brought in to beat them back into place after they went on strike in 92. Labor relations are awful, largely because of him, and it led to Fehr being hired so the PA could have their own attack dog. The PA didn't decide to hire Fehr and go to war just for fun one day.

If Bettman thought that antagonizing Fehr with the opening offer would be a fantastic idea and some sort of payback for hiring Fehr, then it doesn't cast Bettman in a positive light.

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01-04-2013, 01:33 PM
  #869
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For the love of God and all that is holy, my anus is bleeding!

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01-04-2013, 01:34 PM
  #870
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
You should know based on the numbers I sent you that the league as a whole would be missing out on about 250 million dollars of income with a completely lost season. They're still losing a lot with a half season gone, but not as much. The NHL lined more pockets than it drained last year, according to Forbes.
Of course. But that is still pretty irrelevant to them. I am not going to deny it's existence. But that is a pretty small group of owners as well making that money.


The owners are probably worried a lot more about the perceived franchise value in a lost season. But if it comes down to dropping the hammer, the owners have a lot less to lose that is all I wanted to get across.

If they miss an entire season the players almost guaranteed will lose 5 billion in player salaries from this lost season to 2020.

Owners have cost tied to revenue, they will get out 90% clear in the damage except in franchise values which overall move slower vs the wealth of players cash money.

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01-04-2013, 01:34 PM
  #871
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Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Both sides continue to meet separately with mediator. No plan yet to resume full group bargaining...

https://twitter.com/Real_ESPNLeBrun/...74168100216832
It's too bad that mediator couldn't write an article or book about what's been going on with these two groups. That would be interesting reading.

"Bettman's being mean!"

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01-04-2013, 01:35 PM
  #872
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DarrenDreger (Darren Dreger)
Mediator couldn't get 2 sides together to bargain yesterday and so far is failing today. Isn't that his job?

http://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/stat...77475451523072

man I wish a bunch of us fans could walk into their respective rooms and just toss all our merchandise at them, and tell them to **** themselves !

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01-04-2013, 01:35 PM
  #873
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Longtime NY Rangers season ticket holder stopped by 47th + 6th to chat. Says she will cancel on Monday without clear sign of agreement.

https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...75307688411136
My brother is a 22 year season ticket holder for NYR. He cancelled at the start of the lockout apalled that the two sides couldnt't iron it out. He'll never go back at this point. Not that he wont watch, but...he certainly won't be chucking out $10k per season anymore to support them.

Thinking of the momney aspect. Watching a game from home is about a $250-300 swing at least for Rangers games.

Ticket to the game $110 x2 if the wifey comes
Train ticket $23
Beers $75-100
Food $20.

Staying home...12 pack, and a pizza. $35.

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01-04-2013, 01:35 PM
  #874
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For the love of God and all that is holy, my anus is bleeding!
Sounds like a run of the mill episode of House.

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01-04-2013, 01:36 PM
  #875
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xfd wow if true, owners basically admit they have no self control or foresight. Good too know
Haven't they already said they have no self-control, that's why they need a new deal?

They need to be saved from their own reckless spending.

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