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Roster Talk '13 — Finland

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Old
01-02-2013, 08:38 AM
  #776
Pajicz
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Remember guys that Raipe, despite all his weaknesses as a coach, almost got us to the final last year...

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01-02-2013, 11:05 AM
  #777
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Yeah, at least he has some charisma and I'd bet the boys really listens when he talks to them.



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01-02-2013, 11:46 AM
  #778
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Gotta love Armia's goal. Looking as lazy as ever, he just shoots and it goes in. lol

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01-02-2013, 11:46 AM
  #779
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Granlund, Armia and Teräväinen in top 10 scoring. If they could dominate Slovakia like they did today, at least we could have the best scorer in the tournament. That's much better than gold anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fin9 View Post
IMO i think Aaltonen could have made good difference for this team. Järveläinen was so invincible basically in every line he was playing, Aaltonen would have been 100x better than him.
Invincible. He must have been good then

Quote:
in·vin·ci·ble
adjective
1.incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued.
2.insuperable; insurmountable: invincible difficulties.
The word you were thinking of was invisible.

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01-03-2013, 12:45 AM
  #780
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Jortsu already was an U20 coach in 2009-10 season. Even though he did better than Rindell resultwise, the game still looked far from convincing. A regular QF exit that year.
Oh yeah. I actually didn't even remember that. I remember that bad impersonation of Ortio though which doesn't remind me of Jortikka at all. Should've seen the connection there that he was indeed U-20 coach then.

Anyways Jortikka is better option than the 2 previous ones, but easy to say now after the team is eliminated. Before the tournament I thought Rindell would be a good fit, but him & Tomek can't seem to get the players coached properly mentally and that's probably more important than anything in U-20.

Wonder if our bigger coach names are even afraid to coach in U-20 now as it may cause some damage to their careers/reputations if they fail. That certainly didn't help Rindell's career. Kari Jalonen would be my #1 pick for men's NT and he'd be the perfect choice for U-20 also, but he'll never do that I'm afraid.

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01-03-2013, 04:52 AM
  #781
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Predictiton: Granlund and Armia explode vs Slovakia and end up 1st and 2nd in scoring.

In two years nobody remembers how much team finland sucked, and Granlund/Armia will be always remembered as the leading scorers of the toughest WJC ever.

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01-03-2013, 05:06 AM
  #782
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Originally Posted by Temego View Post
Predictiton: Granlund and Armia explode vs Slovakia and end up 1st and 2nd in scoring.

In two years nobody remembers how much team finland sucked, and Granlund/Armia will be always remembered as the leading scorers of the toughest WJC ever.
Actually I think it is the other way around. They will be remembered that they where the ones who showed up in the relegation round against weak competition.

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01-03-2013, 06:16 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
I remember that bad impersonation of Ortio though which doesn't remind me of Jortikka at all.
Funny, I thought it wasn't particularly bad. While I agree that there is room for improvement and it could be a more stylish imitation, I thought it was still fairly recognizable. No other Finnish coach is known for talking like that.

But this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Wonder if our bigger coach names are even afraid to coach in U-20 now as it may cause some damage to their careers/reputations if they fail.
I could see this happening when we were in the junior slump After the Mikko and Tuomo generation grew up, but see no way why there wouldn't be more viable names up for challenge now that we've picked it up and seem to be steadily producing great prospects again.

I wonder how badly that whole Summanen ordeal affected Kummola a decade back. I mean, he was actually capable of making some unorthodox choices before, but after Rami gave it a shot and turned out to be... well, Rami, he has hardly veered out of his comfort zone.


I have to admit though, I actually thought Rindell was a decent pick when the call was announced. I figured he's still more experienced than Raipe and was happy to see we have a full-time U20 guy again who maybe has time for some extended scouting. Well, we all saw how that ended, both gameplaywise and in the form of some questionable picks. Plus after Raipe took us to semis, I figured that when you've got a talented enough crop, no pro coach can tank that bad.

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Originally Posted by Juzmo View Post
Yeah, at least he has some charisma and I'd bet the boys really listens when he talks to them.
I have no doubt that Raipe, with his reputation alone, couldn't be able to create a better team spirit and more cohesive effort than Rindell did. But for as long as the man falls back to the Aravirta playbook of dumping the puck when protecting a lead, I don't want to see him anywhere near the bench.

"Couldn't he have learnt something from the ordeal?", some of you ask. I'm thinking that if Finnish hockey as a whole couldn't learn anything from all those lost final games before Jalonen rolled along, I'm not placing much hope on any product of that era.

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Originally Posted by Henkine View Post
Actually I think it is the other way around. They will be remembered that they where the ones who showed up in the relegation round against weak competition.
Yeah. Some people might forget this happened (after all, I don't think there were too many who recalled we were in relegation in 2009 also), but when the topic of scoring comes up, there will always be someone who reminds people how and why the points racked up. So, overly optimistic thinking, if any.

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01-04-2013, 12:33 AM
  #784
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Plus after Raipe took us to semis, I figured that when you've got a talented enough crop, no pro coach can tank that bad.
Yes. Now afterwards it kind of looks like Raipe did OK job when we are comparing him to Rindell's this season's effort. Raipe kept it steady, but there was not as much hope of beating the top countries like Sweden/USA/Canada, while this year it was the opposite. A lot of hope of beating them all because of the practice matches and a complete roller coaster ride happened.

Btw it was amusing when Saukkonen and Kortelainen were talking about something like 'this is what U-20 is all about' referring to the mistake prone play style of U-20 and trying to hype it in a positive way. I think it was during and far into FIN-SWE game. It's true that mistakes happen more often in U-20, but that game just made U-20 look really bad, because I've never seen Finland's U-20 game fluctuate in such a way. Just thought it was a very bad timing for them to say that.

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01-04-2013, 12:54 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Mahox View Post
Raimo "Raipe" Helminen. Ex-player turned horrible horrible horrible coach. Was head coach of Finland in the last years WJC.
You obviously know **** all about coaching a hockey team.

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01-04-2013, 04:13 AM
  #786
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Positive thing is, I think Raipe must have developed some coaching skills during this year. It's not been easy year at all, and it's not like The Ilves-situation had basicly anything to do with Raipe. They're **** d up even on owner level. Raipe has been in really hard spot to be, I think he might have learned alot during the hard year.

Also its true that the player's will much more likely respect him and listen to him automaticly, while rindell should somehow earn the respect.

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01-04-2013, 04:35 AM
  #787
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Raipe has authority and is able to get the players to listen to him, but he doesn't have that much to give in the tactical department, at least not yet. That's his problem. Ilves is in last place in SM-liiga. Their material is bad, but look at SaiPa for example. Their player material is far from the best, but they're still 3rd in the league, because they have a coach with a solid gameplan. The only worse coach than Raipe in the league is HIFK's Soppa, who has no authority and no gameplan.

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01-04-2013, 04:45 AM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Gaps View Post
Raipe has authority and is able to get the players to listen to him, but he doesn't have that much to give in the tactical department, at least not yet. That's his problem. Ilves is in last place in SM-liiga. Their material is bad, but look at SaiPa for example. Their player material is far from the best, but they're still 3rd in the league, because they have a coach with a solid gameplan. The only worse coach than Raipe in the league is HIFK's Soppa, who has no authority and no gameplan.
Yea but ilves has been in huge problems in the company, team was without owner and without goverment, it has worser material than saipa. Now they have again been without goaltender, luckily some A-junior has played well. Its really hard for a new coach to succes in that situation, I think Raipe would've done just well coaching Jokerit for example, or any other team would've been better. I know he isn't ready as a coach, but you just cannot blaim only Raipe.

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01-04-2013, 05:12 AM
  #789
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Originally Posted by QnebO View Post
Yea but ilves has been in huge problems in the company, team was without owner and without goverment, it has worser material than saipa. Now they have again been without goaltender, luckily some A-junior has played well. Its really hard for a new coach to succes in that situation, I think Raipe would've done just well coaching Jokerit for example, or any other team would've been better. I know he isn't ready as a coach, but you just cannot blaim only Raipe.
Ilves's material is worse than SaiPa's, but their material isn't the 3rd best in the league, not even close. Raipe isn't good enough to make the team more than a sum of its parts, like good coaches are. Even if Raipe was better, Ilves might still not be able to make the playoffs because of their material, but I don't think they'd be in last place. So it's not just Raipe's fault, but he's not a good coach yet.

Raipe decided not to continue with Ilves next season on his own, because even he knows he's not good enough of a coach yet. He made the right decision, but the problem is that he's not good enough for the Young Lions either.

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01-04-2013, 06:17 AM
  #790
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
It's true that mistakes happen more often in U-20, but that game just made U-20 look really bad, because I've never seen Finland's U-20 game fluctuate in such a way.
Is this the first U20 tournament you watched them? Because last year, it fluctuated just as bad, even if the end result was wholly different.

In fact, if you look at their performances this year and last, you could almost call 'em opposite images. Started with a horrid 8-1 loss against Canada, then had strong showings against USA, Denmark and the Czechs - but were trending downwards then. Yes, we won the QF against Slovakia, but c'mon, we won it 8-5. In other words, we sucked, but won simply because the opponent sucked even more. Then, more bad hockey against Sweden and Canada in the medal games.

This year, we started strong, then had three weak games, and picked it up again when the "games that matter" began (it may sound unappropiate to call relegation round that, but the truth is, you can't get sloppy there either because you can't avoid Div I by simply being a member of the Big Six).

The reason we finished 4th with Raipe was that he had his highs and lows at different times than Rindell did. Maybe Raipe has gone forward as a coach, but after last year's semi he clearly saw the third period as nothing more than a valiant fight that just didn't go our way, rather than the horrible anti-coaching cockup it was. If he still does, he can coach the hockey of his life all the way up to a decisive game for all I care, but when the decisive 20 minutes roll along and the team under him is again trying to simply prevent the loss rather than actually winning, he's not cut out for the job.

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01-04-2013, 08:24 AM
  #791
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Oh well, maybe next year.

Armia reminds me of a young Jagr and Barkov of young Sundin. Anyone else had these weird thoughts of these prospects?

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01-04-2013, 10:58 AM
  #792
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Originally Posted by hirawl View Post
You obviously know **** all about coaching a hockey team.
I admit immediately I don't know how of if Raipe has progressed as a coach but last year was a disaster playwise.

Are you actually trying to defend how the last years team was coached?
If you actually watched the games you could see how the team was in disarray most of the time.

The most important game against sweden in the SF the shots were 58-24 in swedens favor and completely one sided affair once Finland gave up puck control and were content on dumping the puck. No penalties called against Sweden all game, much due to the fact we didn't apply almost any pressure and were barely able to enter the offensive zone. Finland scored two goals in the first and then sat back and waited for the comeback which almost didn't happen due to the brilliant goaltending by Aittokallio.

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01-04-2013, 01:27 PM
  #793
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As a Blackhawk fan I obviously have an interest in Teravainen - so that disclaimer is stated.

I don't understand the disproportionate mentions of Armia, Granlund and Barkov compared with Teravainen. Seems there are 10 threads mentioning one of those three for every one thread mentioning Teravainen. Granted, all mentions of Teravainen that I've seen have been positive, compared to many negative critiques of Armia, Granlund and less so for Barkov, but Teravainen seems like an after thought when it seems the opposite should be true. TT is a year younger than Armia and Granlund and (IMO) better than both of them. Many of TT's 11 points came on the PP and yet he still finished with +6 compared to -1 and 0 for Armia & Granlund. Barkov and TT should both be on the team next year too - so that's something to look forward to, while Armia and Granlund days of u20 are done - dust in the wind, memories of what could have been.

Let's think positive - TT and Barkov (and others like Ristolainen) should be a very good core group for next u20.


Last edited by EbonyRaptor: 01-04-2013 at 02:11 PM. Reason: fixed - had Granlund when I meant Teravainen
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01-04-2013, 01:41 PM
  #794
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
Barkov and Granlund should both be on the team next year too - so that's something to look forward to, while Armia and Granlund days of u20 are done - dust in the wind, memories of what could have been.
I take you mean Teuvo here.

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01-04-2013, 01:43 PM
  #795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
As a Blackhawk fan I obviously have an interest in Teravainen - so that disclaimer is stated.

I don't understand the disproportionate mentions of Armia, Granlund and Barkov compared with Teravainen. Seems there are 10 threads mentioning one of those three for every one thread mentioning Teravainen. Granted, all mentions of Teravainen that I've seen have been positive, compared to many negative critiques of Armia, Granlund and less so for Barkov, but Teravainen seems like an after thought when it seems the opposite should be true. TT is a year younger than Armia and Granlund and (IMO) better than both of them. Many of TT's 11 points came on the PP and yet he still finished with +6 compared to -1 and 0 for Armia & Granlund. Barkov and Granlund should both be on the team next year too - so that's something to look forward to, while Armia and Granlund days of u20 are done - dust in the wind, memories of what could have been.

Let's think positive - TT and Barkov (and others like Ristolainen) should be a very good core group for next u20.
Completely agree, I actually think TT was our best player in this tournament.

I was really impressed by him.

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01-04-2013, 01:46 PM
  #796
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
As a Blackhawk fan I obviously have an interest in Teravainen - so that disclaimer is stated.

I don't understand the disproportionate mentions of Armia, Granlund and Barkov compared with Teravainen. Seems there are 10 threads mentioning one of those three for every one thread mentioning Teravainen. Granted, all mentions of Teravainen that I've seen have been positive, compared to many negative critiques of Armia, Granlund and less so for Barkov, but Teravainen seems like an after thought when it seems the opposite should be true. TT is a year younger than Armia and Granlund and (IMO) better than both of them. Many of TT's 11 points came on the PP and yet he still finished with +6 compared to -1 and 0 for Armia & Granlund. Barkov and Granlund should both be on the team next year too - so that's something to look forward to, while Armia and Granlund days of u20 are done - dust in the wind, memories of what could have been.

Let's think positive - TT and Barkov (and others like Ristolainen) should be a very good core group for next u20.
Ah. There's been very little wrong with TT's WJC performance and he just about lived up to the expectations people had for him. He's been doing very good in the league lately, so people expected results from him in this tournament- and he delivered. That's probably the reason he isn't mentioned as often as the others. Teuvo didn't underperform, but he didn't really exceed expectations either.

We also have a tendency to focus on the negative performances rather than the positive ones.

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01-04-2013, 02:11 PM
  #797
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I take you mean Teuvo here.
Yes - good catch. Thanks. I fixed it.

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01-04-2013, 02:17 PM
  #798
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Ah. There's been very little wrong with TT's WJC performance and he just about lived up to the expectations people had for him. He's been doing very good in the league lately, so people expected results from him in this tournament- and he delivered. That's probably the reason he isn't mentioned as often as the others. Teuvo didn't underperform, but he didn't really exceed expectations either.

We also have a tendency to focus on the negative performances rather than the positive ones.
Yes, it's true for all of us. Humans are stuck with our human nature

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01-04-2013, 02:43 PM
  #799
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Completely agree, I actually think TT was our best player in this tournament.

I was really impressed by him.
If the lockout ends, the regular season will last longer than usual. This means only very few NHL players will make it to the WHC, meaning we might see a handful of irregular picks in the top countries' rosters.

With this coming to pass, TT could have a very good chance of breaking the men's squad as well. He'd be the same age as Granlund two years ago. Most of us are hot on Barkov, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Teräväinen make it while Sasha doesn't. Barkov is, after all, still U18 eligible as well.

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01-04-2013, 03:00 PM
  #800
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
If the lockout ends, the regular season will last longer than usual. This means only very few NHL players will make it to the WHC, meaning we might see a handful of irregular picks in the top countries' rosters.

With this coming to pass, TT could have a very good chance of breaking the men's squad as well. He'd be the same age as Granlund two years ago. Most of us are hot on Barkov, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Teräväinen make it while Sasha doesn't. Barkov is, after all, still U18 eligible as well.
I can't see this happening. But they should take Armia to score the goals.

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