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Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

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01-04-2013, 04:04 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
I think both sides could have done an awful lot more to meet an awful lot sooner. There was virtually no attempts to build good will between the PA and the League (from either side) in advance of June, July, September or any time during this process. I'm not saying the league has been reasonable (I actually agree, many of their demands are patently the opposite), but to say the PA has been completely forthcoming and justified in this process seems disingenous to me.
I understand that, but the reality is that these things never happen that early. It just never happens. And once the NHL started at such a ridiculous place in June (and later hired Frank Luntz to help craft a media message of "shared sacrified") it became pretty clear to me that the league was simply not interested in a reasonable negotiation. They started with strong-arm tactics and never let up.

It's like if you sold a car and asked $5,000. If the first guy starts with a $1 offer you don't think, "Well, I'll be reasonable here!" That was the league's first offer.

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01-04-2013, 04:11 PM
  #727
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https://twitter.com/TEAM1040/status/287304306485518336
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RT @elliottpap: D.Sedin on maybe going home if season axed: "We're going to talk to Naslund in the next few days. You have to be prepared."
That's good, don't want them sitting around doing nothing for a whole year.

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01-04-2013, 04:13 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
It's a game a lot of people love, so there's going to be emotion involved.

For myself, my anger really stems from the fact that there was virtually zero negotiation prior to the CBA expiring. The lockout was inevitable and we all knew it was coming, so it's just upsetting that it had to transpire like that.

I fully understand both sides protecting their interest, I just wish they could have actually gotten down to this serious negotiating a lot sooner. When I think of all the time that was wasted with both sides stubbornly refusing to meet, take it or leave it proposals, publicity stunts and temper tantrums, when a lot of this could have begun while we still had hockey to watch...it just blows my mind.

Both sides intentionally waited until games were being lost to put heat on one another, when the real victims of that decision were always going to be the fans. It sucks, and I know that both sides did it and are continuing to do it consciously.

My gut feeling is that a deal will get done, but I'm equally displeased with both sides for allowing this farce to play out the way it has.
I was disappointed with the players for taking so long to come to the table as well, but now I'm really not sure sure if it's really a black and white issue or criticism. We know the Bettman employs and the league employs that Proktauer-Ross (or however you spell it) law firm, the same one used by the NBA and I think the NFL. Consider the parallels between the NHL and NBA lockouts, they obviously have a similar playbook they're rolling out that involves stretching things out the distance.

In hindsight looking at how the labour negotiation process has gone up to this point, do you really think it would have mattered if the PA started early negotiations? Realistically if both sides were playing fair there's no reason why the progress we've seen over the last month couldn't have been the starting point in the off season.

Off course if the league started off playing nice then maybe Fehr would have taken the opportunity to play hardball and drag things out to the bitter end before easing up. In general though the players have more to gain by getting back on the ice early, and it's now a known fact that the Bettman had every intention of playing hardball.

And in this case you really can put more emphasis on Bettman than the owners as a group, since he's positioned himself to have so much power over the process that he only needs 8 teams on his side to get his way.

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01-04-2013, 04:15 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
https://twitter.com/TEAM1040/status/287304306485518336


That's good, don't want them sitting around doing nothing for a whole year.
I do, I want every NHL player to not play in ANY professional league. Get a job at Starbucks or something, but taking jobs from other hockey players is cheap and not what members of a union should be doing.

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01-04-2013, 04:23 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I do, I want every NHL player to not play in ANY professional league. Get a job at Starbucks or something, but taking jobs from other hockey players is cheap and not what members of a union should be doing.
So these millionaires should take minimum wage jobs away from the general public instead?

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01-04-2013, 04:36 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Because I'm tired of seeing teams in Phoenix, Florida, etc. that aren't supported and no one cares about, while there are markets in Canada like Quebec, Hamilton, even Saskatoon/Regina that would be better supported and provide more entertaining rivalries.
The current location of NHL franchises, however inefficient, has nothing to do with the CBA negotiations.

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01-04-2013, 04:40 PM
  #732
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So these millionaires should take minimum wage jobs away from the general public instead?
Yeah, if they want to work. Do you think you'd see many of them take those minimum wage jobs? NHL players have jobs, in the NHL...they shouldn't be supplanting other players from their jobs because of a labour dispute. It's a ****** move IMO.

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01-04-2013, 04:43 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So these millionaires should take minimum wage jobs away from the general public instead?
Players in the European league are not exactly making a whole lot of money, and end up getting displaced/released/fired when their more talented multimillionaire co-workers debark from the other side of the Atlantic because of this labour shortage. You think this is fair to them?

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01-04-2013, 04:44 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
The current location of NHL franchises, however inefficient, has nothing to do with the CBA negotiations.
It kind of does if the NHL is pleading poor based on a few struggling franchises that probably should have been moved to stronger markets.

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01-04-2013, 04:46 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Yeah, if they want to work. Do you think you'd see many of them take those minimum wage jobs? NHL players have jobs, in the NHL...they shouldn't be supplanting other players from their jobs because of a labour dispute. It's a ****** move IMO.
The point of playing overseas is to stay sharp and not get rusty, not to be making money.
Saying they should just get minimum wage jobs is idiotic.

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01-04-2013, 04:46 PM
  #736
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It kind of does if the NHL is pleading poor based on a few struggling franchises that probably should have been moved to stronger markets.
I find that argument to be of minor impact. Quebec City should likely be able to support a franchise, same with another franchise in the Golden Horseshoe area - but Toronto and Buffalo refuse to have a third franchise in the area. Other than that, I'm not sold on the idea that there's another market available out there that is better than what is currently being served.

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01-04-2013, 04:49 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
I find that argument to be of minor impact. Quebec City should likely be able to support a franchise, same with another franchise in the Golden Horseshoe area - but Toronto and Buffalo refuse to have a third franchise in the area. Other than that, I'm not sold on the idea that there's another market available out there that is better than what is currently being served.
I think a team in Seattle/Portland would do much better than Phoenix.
Not great, but good.

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01-04-2013, 04:50 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
The point of playing overseas is to stay sharp and not get rusty, not to be making money.
Saying they should just get minimum wage jobs is idiotic.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=733

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01-04-2013, 04:52 PM
  #739
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I think a team in Seattle/Portland would do much better than Phoenix.
Not great, but good.
Like I said, Quebec City should be able to support a franchise better than Phoenix. But other than that? Can Seattle/Portland do better than Florida/Tampa/Nashville/Carolina? I don't think the answer is that clear cut. At least, to present this as the primary reason to be anti-owners on the CBA negotiations makes no sense, since it would have such have little impact on overall HRR.

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01-04-2013, 04:55 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
I find that argument to be of minor impact. Quebec City should likely be able to support a franchise, same with another franchise in the Golden Horseshoe area - but Toronto and Buffalo refuse to have a third franchise in the area. Other than that, I'm not sold on the idea that there's another market available out there that is better than what is currently being served.
Even if they turned 1 bleeding franchise into a positive money maker it makes a difference, yet they don't. And capitulating to a couple franchises at the expense of the league as a whole doesn't float with me. If all 3 of Toronto, Buffalo and a 3rd franchise can make money then its better than having 2 make money and 1 bleed at the league's expense.

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01-04-2013, 05:01 PM
  #741
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Even if they turned 1 bleeding franchise into a positive money maker it makes a difference, yet they don't.
Again, a minor impact (I'm not saying it has no impact) in the grand scheme of reasons why someone would be anti-league in the CBA negotiations.

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And capitulating to a couple franchises at the expense of the league as a whole doesn't float with me. If all 3 of Toronto, Buffalo and a 3rd franchise can make money then its better than having 2 make money and 1 bleed at the league's expense.
I don't think it's an issue of capitulating, it's an issue of those franchises having veto power. If this is a non-starter to both the Leafs and the Sabres, I'm not sure what you expect the league to do about it.

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01-04-2013, 05:04 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
Again, a minor impact (I'm not saying it has no impact) in the grand scheme of reasons why someone would be anti-league in the CBA negotiations.
Not really. The Coyotes lost about 20 million dollars despite making the Conference finals, and the league is refusing to let them leave, despite bleeding money all over the place. It's a black hole.

The league is already making money hand over fist. I wonder how much more they'd be making if Nashville had moved to Hamilton a few years ago, Phoenix moved to Seattle, and Carolina moved to Quebec City. There was a dramatic economic difference when Atlanta moved to Winnipeg.

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01-04-2013, 05:07 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
That's just something you have to deal with in sports (and normal life). If someone better comes along, you could be at risk of losing your job.

Should we not try to acquire a top 6 forward so Raymond can keep his job in Vancouver?

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01-04-2013, 05:09 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
Again, a minor impact (I'm not saying it has no impact) in the grand scheme of reasons why someone would be anti-league in the CBA negotiations.



I don't think it's an issue of capitulating, it's an issue of those franchises having veto power. If this is a non-starter to both the Leafs and the Sabres, I'm not sure what you expect the league to do about it.
If the league chooses to keep teams in failing markets because of an unwillingness by their own owners to allow teams into potentially successful markets and then try to plead poverty, why should the players foot the bill for it?

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01-04-2013, 05:15 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
That's just something you have to deal with in sports (and normal life). If someone better comes along, you could be at risk of losing your job.

Should we not try to acquire a top 6 forward so Raymond can keep his job in Vancouver?
Not even the same thing. These players have no intention of keeping the jobs, just "moonlighting" until the labour dispute is over. It's not the behavior of a good union member.

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01-04-2013, 05:15 PM
  #746
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Not really. The Coyotes lost about 20 million dollars despite making the Conference finals, and the league is refusing to let them leave, despite bleeding money all over the place. It's a black hole.
Ok - a $20 million loss, when the league overall makes over $250 million in operating income, is a huge reason for picking sides in the CBA negotiation.

Quote:
The league is already making money hand over fist. I wonder how much more they'd be making if Nashville had moved to Hamilton a few years ago, Phoenix moved to Seattle, and Carolina moved to Quebec City. There was a dramatic economic difference when Atlanta moved to Winnipeg.
Who knows - I don't. Hamilton is not a possibility. Seattle/Portland is an unknown.

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01-04-2013, 05:17 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
That's just something you have to deal with in sports (and normal life). If someone better comes along, you could be at risk of losing your job.

Should we not try to acquire a top 6 forward so Raymond can keep his job in Vancouver?
If the league decides to use scab players, how do you think the NHLPA would react?

Fair's fair, right?

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01-04-2013, 05:19 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
If the league chooses to keep teams in failing markets because of an unwillingness by their own owners to allow teams into potentially successful markets and then try to plead poverty, why should the players foot the bill for it?
They shouldn't - but the bill you speak of is a molehill interpreted as a mountain.

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01-04-2013, 05:26 PM
  #749
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They shouldn't - but the bill you speak of is a molehill interpreted as a mountain.
I disagree...I think it's just a sign of how the NHL does business. I think the difference is much greater than a "molehill", but we'll agree to disagree there.

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01-04-2013, 05:30 PM
  #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
That's just something you have to deal with in sports (and normal life). If someone better comes along, you could be at risk of losing your job.

Should we not try to acquire a top 6 forward so Raymond can keep his job in Vancouver?
And for the entertainment industry in general. If TV/Film production in Vancouver slows down, actors used to getting work at one level (series regular->recurring role->guest star->small actor role->->->background) will start seeking work a level or two below making it harder for everyone else trying to get work at their level.

In a lot of other professional industries as well I'd imagine if something goes wrong like this there will be a trickle down effect where the displaced professionals with a higher ability or seniority step into other jobs pushing others of lesser ability/seniority to the outside.

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