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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Lockout VII: I've walked for miles, my feet are hurting

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Old
01-04-2013, 04:24 PM
  #151
haseoke39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjeyoyo View Post
I just googled NHL and a giant box pops up that says "THE NHL REGULAR SEASON 2013 begins on Tuesday, January 15th and ENDS ON saturday April 13th"

Does google know something we don't know (they usually do)?
They're just using the regular schedule minus the games officially cancelled.

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01-04-2013, 04:27 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjeyoyo View Post
I just googled NHL and a giant box pops up that says "THE NHL REGULAR SEASON 2013 begins on Tuesday, January 15th and ENDS ON saturday April 13th"

Does google know something we don't know (they usually do)?
That is just weird. It's not even April 1st. Even if it was, that's not funny.

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01-04-2013, 04:27 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by BlueChip01 View Post
Kevin Bieksa on threat NHL will kill season if no deal by next Thurs: "Deadlines have been moving, changing. They don't really mean much."

The only way these guys will believe him is if GB goes up to a podium and officially tells the world the season will be cancelled on X date. Actually I still don't think these guys would believe him.

I think it would need him cancelling the season and then players would come crawling to Fehr to make a deal.
Can't wait for the season to start July 4.

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01-04-2013, 04:27 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Well if the league scraps the season all those that think something would have been accomplished by starting negotiations earlier, should have their eyes opened.
Explain? Unless you have ESP, there is absolutely no way to tell if it would have had any impact at all. If they would have started negotiating sooner, they would have had more time during the OFFSEASON, which is exactly when this should have been negotiated, to broker a deal. Common sense tells you, that if you wait until your CBA reaches its date of completion, negotiations will adversely effect your ability to negotiate a new contract and perform your job. Basic negotiation tactics, just as is the PA stalling for as long as possible.

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01-04-2013, 04:28 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by HopelessOilFan View Post
Its so hard to take either side when crap like this comes out.

The NHLPA (Fehr) have been absolute morons when it comes to showing up late, telling us a deal was pretty close, and all around toying with us, and the players have been so pathetic on twitter that its impossible to like or trust the PA at all.
What if the PA really was being genuine about being pretty close (in their minds) but then the owners pulled something similar?

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01-04-2013, 04:30 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
They're just using the regular schedule minus the games officially cancelled.
I think you are right. Shucks.

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01-04-2013, 04:31 PM
  #157
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Wouldn't that just take them to the middle of the pier?
It would, until Fehr moved the pier.

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01-04-2013, 04:43 PM
  #158
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Haha, you have to laugh at both sides at this point. Bettman says he is ready to cancel the season and Fehr is calling the players together for another disclaimer vote. They are both full of crap and this screams of POSTURING! It seems clearer to me every day that neither side was/is willing to lose a full year of hockey. What really sucks is that the two sides were unable to get together and make a deal this summer and felt compelled to use the first half of the season as a negotiation tool. Shame on both sides for letting this situation play out as it did but rest assure there will be hockey this year. I am certain of it, the same greed that drove them to lose a half a season is the same greed that will force them to abandon their “principals” and work a deal at the zero hour.

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01-04-2013, 04:48 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by hbk View Post
As someone who has dealt with legal documents. Any changes are typically highlighted and black lined to draw attention. I would be very surprised if this wasn't the case. What likely happened is the NHL made the change and the legal counsel for the NHLPA missed it. NHL assumes it was accepted and made a permanent change on the subsequent offers. Given they traded several back and forth in a short period this could easily have happened.

The issue isn't that the NHL was attempting to negotiate a change. The issue is the NHLPA's legal counsel missed it and didn't counter or voice an objection to a change. That is on the NHLPA legal counsel I'm afraid. That's their job to be honest. That's what they were hired to do. It's not the NHL's job to say "hey did you remember to read the change on page 145?" It's not like the NHLPA didn't take their sweet time examining the offer.
As someone who deals with legal documents and trading proposals/documents back and forth, it is common practice to include a list of changes. The only reason you would not attach a list of changes in a negotiation is to sneak something in. Attaching a list makes it easier to negotiate, and saves a ton of time and hassle.

EDIT: If the NHL did include some sort of change notification, then maybe the NHLPA lawyers really are morons...


Last edited by IME: 01-04-2013 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Clarification
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01-04-2013, 04:51 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopelessOilFan View Post
...

If there was any hockey alternative, i would love to spend my time and money there... these greedy *******s don't deserve another dime of our money.

Its so absolutely infuriating.
Assuming you're actually in Edmonton, or nearby, the Oil Kings would love to have you spending time and money at their games.

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01-04-2013, 04:52 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjeyoyo View Post
I just googled NHL and a giant box pops up that says "THE NHL REGULAR SEASON 2013 begins on Tuesday, January 15th and ENDS ON saturday April 13th"

Does google know something we don't know (they usually do)?
A machine learning algorithm probably did this. They are pretty awesome for matters of fact but obviously it gets owned with things that are complicated and transitive like this.

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01-04-2013, 04:55 PM
  #162
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Sure seems like the players decided against going forward with the disclaimer, so the NHL tried to sneak something past them. WOnder if they regret that opening 43% HRR they floated. The league set the tone for these negotiations. And they have been ugly.

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01-04-2013, 04:57 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
Sure seems like the players decided against going forward with the disclaimer, so the NHL tried to sneak something past them. WOnder if they regret that opening 43% HRR they floated. The league set the tone for these negotiations. And they have been ugly.


The PA set the tone by not negotiating at all, the NHL just exacerbated the problem.

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01-04-2013, 05:00 PM
  #164
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You want to know what the difference is between how the NHL has handled their CBA discussions and the way the NFL and NBA handled theirs?

Trick question. There is none. The difference is that the NBPA and NFLPA took worse offers earlier on in order to get back to work and stop losing money.

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01-04-2013, 05:08 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Interesting. I haven't seen anything about that (not doubting you) so does anyone have any more info on that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FishMonger View Post
I had also heard this, but can't find a link to it. It makes perfect sense, though. The owners wouldn't want the PA coming back and calling them liars, or divulging any financial info, for that matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Things get leaked all the time... Something like this would NOT stay quiet. There's simply too many people involved with too much money at stake for it to remain quiet. NDA or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterEmpire View Post
Except who would leak it? Things get a lot more serious when a NDA is involved, not something people play with
You don't need a link to know what common practice is in the US (or around the world) when business entities exchange confidential/detailed information.

@Riptide. It's not a 'game' and people don't just leak information that was given over after nondisclosure/confidentiality agreements are signed. In fact, the majority of the players would not have access to the details, as these would be limited to the union head/legal staff, negotiating committee and may be the player reps (on a need to know basis). These are binding legal documents, which if released and showed to cause harm to the NHL or any member club could lead to legal action.

The NHL wouldn't just hand over hundreds of thousands of pages of detailed financial records without feeling fairly safe that there would be no leaks. They're not naive nor would they take chances with member club information without certain guarantees in place.

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Old
01-04-2013, 05:11 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
Sure seems like the players decided against going forward with the disclaimer, so the NHL tried to sneak something past them. WOnder if they regret that opening 43% HRR they floated. The league set the tone for these negotiations. And they have been ugly.
Honestly I doubt they do. they gave the NHLPA all the time in the world to engage/set the tone with the initial offer. Fearing Fehr's reputation and frustrated with the lack of urgency I'm not surprised they opened with reversing the percentages. They weren't going to lead with 50/50. They simply couldn't if they wanted to make a legal argument that they were negotiating in good faith. Overkill was the redefinition of HRR but that being said I don't know the exact nature of the changes they wanted to make.

Yeah it was a heavy approach but its intent was to prompt the NHLPA to engage and was something they new the PA would reject. That's negotiations. Make an offer, explain position, trade off on issues. , come to an agreement. The issue really is the NHL has nothing that they are giving the players for making concessions. That makes it a very difficult negotiation for the players as no matter how you slice it the players are truly negotiating with themselves. The owners are walking away billions ahead.

For the record I don't blame Fehr's strategy either. He had to drag this out to the bitter end to try to limit how much he was giving up and look for a win somewhere (pensions?). I'm actually shocked that they even really started negotiating seriously prior to the middle of December.

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01-04-2013, 05:16 PM
  #167
haseoke39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
Sure seems like the players decided against going forward with the disclaimer, so the NHL tried to sneak something past them. WOnder if they regret that opening 43% HRR they floated. The league set the tone for these negotiations. And they have been ugly.
Yeah, probably should have opened lower, now that they're on the hook for paying a higher % of revenue than any other league in North America.

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01-04-2013, 05:17 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
The PA set the tone by not negotiating at all, the NHL just exacerbated the problem.
Exactly...they just want a Fehr deal...

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01-04-2013, 05:23 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
As someone who deals with legal documents and trading proposals/documents back and forth, it is common practice to include a list of changes. The only reason you would not attach a list of changes in a negotiation is to sneak something in. Attaching a list makes it easier to negotiate, and saves a ton of time and hassle.

EDIT: If the NHL did include some sort of change notification, then maybe the NHLPA lawyers really are morons...
It was likely an error. NHL is not trying to sneak anything through. If the NHLPA lawyers did not read the entire document and it passed it would on them not the NHL. Regardless, with all the changing going back and forth, neither side would sign the agreement until someone has re read the entire document. On a 300 + page document, errors can happen.

I also deal with contracts, and after many changes back and forth, I always re read the document in its entirety to make sure nothing else has changed. It is called due diligence. Their lawyers caught it; therefore, the system of checks and balances worked.

Move along everyone, nothing to see here.

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01-04-2013, 05:25 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
Sure seems like the players decided against going forward with the disclaimer, so the NHL tried to sneak something past them. WOnder if they regret that opening 43% HRR they floated. The league set the tone for these negotiations. And they have been ugly.
There was no way in heck the NHL was going to sneak something by the NHLPA lawyers unless they are idiots. If anything, it was an error.

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01-04-2013, 05:28 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
The PA set the tone by not negotiating at all, the NHL just exacerbated the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
You want to know what the difference is between how the NHL has handled their CBA discussions and the way the NFL and NBA handled theirs?

Trick question. There is none. The difference is that the NBPA and NFLPA took worse offers earlier on in order to get back to work and stop losing money.
These two fit together. I was annoyed at the PA's slow response to get to the table, but in hindsight it's pretty obvious that Bettman would be employing the same Proskauer Rose designed playbook used by the NBA and NFL.

They could have started negotiations last year and we'd still be in the same spot today. I'd take a guess that Fehr new this going in.

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01-04-2013, 05:31 PM
  #172
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From what I've read, the league changed the punishment clause after the PA decided against the DOI. Is there a contradicting source?

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01-04-2013, 05:57 PM
  #173
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All of the people involved in this "negotiation" make it look like rocket science.
How greedy are all of these people anyways? They must have it SO BAD to argue for this long.
The NHL is a huge joke. Two lockouts in 8 years is absolutely ludicrous.





........but I'll still watch NHL hockey when it comes back haha.

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01-04-2013, 05:59 PM
  #174
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From what I've read, the league changed the punishment clause after the PA decided against the DOI. Is there a contradicting source?
Yes, that's what I remember as well. KK's keeps track of all the tweets and reports, so it's probably on his page 2-3 now.

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01-04-2013, 06:12 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by BlueChip01 View Post
Kevin Bieksa on threat NHL will kill season if no deal by next Thurs: "Deadlines have been moving, changing. They don't really mean much."

The only way these guys will believe him is if GB goes up to a podium and officially tells the world the season will be cancelled on X date. Actually I still don't think these guys would believe him.

I think it would need him cancelling the season and then players would come crawling to Fehr to make a deal.
You mean like the prior two "artificial deadlines" Fehr reiterated constantly? Couple weeks of checks didn't mean much apparently.

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