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Buyout clause - Do we use it?

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Old
01-03-2013, 09:51 AM
  #151
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Makes things a little more interesting if true. Nice to see the NHL actually moving...makes me laugh at all their blowhard threats earlier in the process (and at all the people who took them serious).


And all the Ballard + Luongo hate, along with the Canuck cap problem projections, can go beddie bye. With two buy outs and Gilman + Gillis at the helm, this team isn't anywhere near trouble. Thank you for playing.



This is the problem when arguing with people over an un-ratified CBA. Changes like this make prior discussion irrelevant.

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01-03-2013, 06:12 PM
  #152
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buy out booth and ballard, trade luongo.

Then sign a big free agent next year.

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01-04-2013, 04:00 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by LetsBeReality View Post


Why bother talkign about something that's so unlikely, it pretty much has zero chance.

From the top of your list. Booth. Fans all over scream for years that Kesler needs a big forward to play on his wing that can keep up and drive the net and when we get him, after less than a season with the team, he's number one on a buy-out list.

This is the list, IF there even was a list:

Ballard





That's it.
The final word. Thanks. No need for you to come back to this thread I suppose.

Booth is a legit buyout candidate if there ever was one. I put him ahead of Ballard and if he plays as poorly (if there is a season) as he did the last half of the last season, he won't be here at the end of next summer.

Don't feel obliged to reply.

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01-04-2013, 05:12 PM
  #154
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Booth is fairly paid. We're just spoiled with the amount of discounts across our line up.

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01-04-2013, 05:23 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
Booth is fairly paid. We're just spoiled with the amount of discounts across our line up.
I would hope for more than a 40 point, one dimensional winger if i was paying over $4m a year. Maybe thats the going rate these days but its overpaid IMO.

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01-04-2013, 05:54 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
The final word. Thanks. No need for you to come back to this thread I suppose.

Booth is a legit buyout candidate if there ever was one. I put him ahead of Ballard and if he plays as poorly (if there is a season) as he did the last half of the last season, he won't be here at the end of next summer.

Don't feel obliged to reply.
Well hopefully we'll get another 48 games to evaluate Booth on, but in my opinion the key point between Booth and Ballard is where we're paying Booth $4.2M to be a 2nd line forward Ballard is being payed the same to be a bottom pairing dmen.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Ballard isn't worth the money as on a different team he could easily be a top 4 guy, but for our team if you're being squeezed by the cap having such an expensive guy as your 5th dman is a luxury you can easily cut.

In my opinion if Edler signs and we're squeezed by the cap Ballard will likely go out of necessity. Booth will only join him if we get another half a season to watch him and he completely stinks it up.

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01-04-2013, 06:14 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I would hope for more than a 40 point, one dimensional winger if i was paying over $4m a year. Maybe thats the going rate these days but its overpaid IMO.
It's not.

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01-04-2013, 06:20 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I would hope for more than a 40 point, one dimensional winger if i was paying over $4m a year. Maybe thats the going rate these days but its overpaid IMO.
Yeah, Booth better show us something this year if he wants to be in Vancouver a year from now. With a $60mil cap I want no part of this guy.

Luongo, Raymond, Malhotra, Ballard and Booth are probably all playing elsewhere in '13-14 if the cap is $60mil. Can't say the team would be much worse off either after unloading that $20mil of cap...

Nik Kulemin would be a good target if the cap drops significantly. Would be a good replacement for Booth at half the cost.

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01-04-2013, 06:24 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Nik Kulemin would be a good target if the cap drops significantly. Would be a good replacement for Booth at half the cost.
Depends if he's able to get his game back to where it was the year before (sure he's putting up some points in the KHL now but I *think* he's on a line with Malkin).

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01-04-2013, 06:24 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Yeah, Booth better show us something this year if he wants to be in Vancouver a year from now. With a $60mil cap I want no part of this guy.

Luongo, Raymond, Malhotra, Ballard and Booth are probably all playing elsewhere in '13-14 if the cap is $60mil. Can't say the team would be much worse off either after unloading that $20mil of cap...

Nik Kulemin would be a good target if the cap drops significantly. Would be a good replacement for Booth at half the cost.
Agreed on all points.

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01-04-2013, 06:26 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Depends if he's able to get his game back to where it was the year before (sure he's putting up some points in the KHL now but I *think* he's on a line with Malkin).
Even if he didn't get his game back, and Booth stayed the same I'd rather have Kulemin. At least he plays some solid defense and can be used in a bottom 6 role at half the price.

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01-04-2013, 06:35 PM
  #162
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Even if he didn't get his game back, and Booth stayed the same I'd rather have Kulemin. At least he plays some solid defense and can be used in a bottom 6 role at half the price.
Exactly, Kulemin is at the very least a very solid top 9 forward, and if he can find his offensive game again he's a great top 6 option. Apparently he had a lot of close friends die in the Lokomotiv plane crash and that affected him a lot. Will he hit 30 goals again? Probably not but I wouldn't be surprised if he's a solid 20-25 goal guy while providing very solid two-way play.

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01-04-2013, 06:39 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Depends if he's able to get his game back to where it was the year before (sure he's putting up some points in the KHL now but I *think* he's on a line with Malkin).
By all accounts Kulemin is back playing well this season in the KHL. He's had 3 good years in the past 4 and the 1 poor season he was apparently very shaken up over losing some close friends from the plane crash. Last season looks to be the outlier.

All the things Booth does well, Kulemin does too. Kulemin is bigger, drives the net with authority, has an excellent shot, is an exceptional skater... But Kulemin is much smarter and more reliable defensively IMO.

I still believe this player will be a target of Gillis'. Gillis seems to be putting a lot of emphasis on size right now and Kulemin is a tank, ala Shane Doan. Gillis also likes players that skate well and Kulemin is one of the quickest 225lb plus players out there. Being young, cheap and cost controlled for a couple years just make him a no-brainer. Kulemin is just a better fit all the way around than smaller guys like Bpzak, Kadri, MacArthur etc...

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01-04-2013, 08:19 PM
  #164
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I would hope for more than a 40 point, one dimensional winger if i was paying over $4m a year. Maybe thats the going rate these days but its overpaid IMO.
David Jones.

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01-04-2013, 08:26 PM
  #165
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It's not.
Get out of here with your logic and mathematics!

Seriously, the Booth thing has been done to death, and the statistics have shone through in his favour each and every time. Booth is statistically an above-average second liner, and is fairly paid for his contributions. As Wisp said, higher expectations are solely due to being spoiled as a Canucks fan. Not just in having a great deal of discounts around the roster, but also in having one of the better second-liners in the NHL in Ryan Kesler.

It's very frustrating to see the same opinions proven wrong statistically, namely that David Booth is a sub-standard second liner, and then parroted again in each thread as if the individual posters lose their memory from thread to thread. But I guess if I don't want to see that, I'd better get off the internet.

In the main board, the league roster thread just got updated. Canucker, Sopel, go look at that thread and find me 5 other rosters on which Booth would not instantly slot into one of the top two lines. It will be difficult, and that should clue you in to why people are shaking their heads at your opinion.

Is there a better option out there than David Booth for our second line? Absolutely. But to use that as a reason to buy him out, with no real prospects of acquiring a replacement, would be piss-poor asset management on Gillis's part.

Also, Canucker, I have to point out how stupid your comment of "Maybe thats the going rate these days but its overpaid IMO" was. The "going rate" is the only objective measure of whether a player is paid fairly or not, anything else is, by definition, a result of your personal bias. In this case, I think it's simply that you haven't come to terms with the rapid salary inflation that has occurred in recent years.

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01-04-2013, 09:18 PM
  #166
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I don't like being told I should like David Booth on our team because his stats achieve some kind of average. He needs to be better or he isn't worth that money to our team. I can't see us buying him out though, someone would take a chance on him.

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01-04-2013, 09:20 PM
  #167
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Get out of here with your logic and mathematics!

Seriously, the Booth thing has been done to death, and the statistics have shone through in his favour each and every time. Booth is statistically an above-average second liner, and is fairly paid for his contributions. As Wisp said, higher expectations are solely due to being spoiled as a Canucks fan. Not just in having a great deal of discounts around the roster, but also in having one of the better second-liners in the NHL in Ryan Kesler.

It's very frustrating to see the same opinions proven wrong statistically, namely that David Booth is a sub-standard second liner, and then parroted again in each thread as if the individual posters lose their memory from thread to thread. But I guess if I don't want to see that, I'd better get off the internet.

In the main board, the league roster thread just got updated. Canucker, Sopel, go look at that thread and find me 5 other rosters on which Booth would not instantly slot into one of the top two lines. It will be difficult, and that should clue you in to why people are shaking their heads at your opinion.

Is there a better option out there than David Booth for our second line? Absolutely. But to use that as a reason to buy him out, with no real prospects of acquiring a replacement, would be piss-poor asset management on Gillis's part.

Also, Canucker, I have to point out how stupid your comment of "Maybe thats the going rate these days but its overpaid IMO" was. The "going rate" is the only objective measure of whether a player is paid fairly or not, anything else is, by definition, a result of your personal bias. In this case, I think it's simply that you haven't come to terms with the rapid salary inflation that has occurred in recent years.


Where did I say Booth is going to be bought out, or even should be at this point? I think your indignant outrage at this is quite humorous.

Honestly, I don't care where the "math" says David Booth fits amongst top 6 players around the league. Anyone who actually watches the game with any sort of discerning eye can tell that David Booth is a one dimensional scorer, who when he isn't scoring (which is all too often recently) isn't adding anything of value to the roster. I'm sure there are 20 or so teams that would love to have David Booth in their top 6...hell I'd like to have 2008-09 David Booth in our lineup, the point is there are a lot of ****** teams in this league, and a lot of average teams in this league and thats where David Booth (in his current form) is a great top 6 forward...not on a team that wants to contend. And so with that, I have no intention of trying to name 5 other teams that wouldn't slot Booth in, because I would like to think we are one of the 5 teams that doesn't need a sub-standard David Booth in our lineup. If he isn't substandard this season (hopefully), then its a moot point.

As for your ignorant attack of my comment, it's called an "opinion"...I believe that $4.25m/year spent on a one dimensional, 40 point winger is an overpayment, it might very well be "the going rate" but I'm not interested in that if there are other, better value options that might be available.

Btw...I'd love to see these "statistics" that prove that David Booth is a wonderful top 6 forward because it's certainly not his goals, assists or point totals.

And FYI, you might want to put the calculator down, put the stats sheets away and actually watch some hockey games, I find it much more entertaining and informative.

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01-04-2013, 09:20 PM
  #168
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Even if he didn't get his game back, and Booth stayed the same I'd rather have Kulemin. At least he plays some solid defense and can be used in a bottom 6 role at half the price.
The thing is, could you sign him for Mason Raymond money? I'd imagine the Leafs would easily try and re-sign him for more than that.

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01-04-2013, 09:31 PM
  #169
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The thing is, could you sign him for Mason Raymond money? I'd imagine the Leafs would easily try and re-sign him for more than that.
He's signed through this season and next at $2.8m per.

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01-04-2013, 09:37 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Depends if he's able to get his game back to where it was the year before (sure he's putting up some points in the KHL now but I *think* he's on a line with Malkin).
He started off with Malkin, now he plays a bit with Ryan O'Reilly, I believe.

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He's signed through this season and next at $2.8m per.
$2.6M this year, $3M next with a $2.8M caphit for both years.

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01-04-2013, 09:37 PM
  #171
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He's signed through this season and next at $2.8m per.
My mistake; I thought he was in the final year of his contract.

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01-04-2013, 09:40 PM
  #172
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He started off with Malkin, now he plays a bit with Ryan O'Reilly, I believe.



$2.6M this year, $3M next with a $2.8M caphit for both years.

Yeah, I meant a $2.8 cap hit...should have been specific.

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01-04-2013, 09:46 PM
  #173
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The thing is, could you sign him for Mason Raymond money? I'd imagine the Leafs would easily try and re-sign him for more than that.
Also, since you mentioned Mason Raymond...I'm not sure why people (not saying you in particular) have completely written him off as a top 6 forward for this team? I think he has just as much ability to rebound and have a good year as Booth does...and he knows his way around the defensive end, and can PK, not to mention the wage difference.

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01-04-2013, 10:04 PM
  #174
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...ballard easily. wouldn't even want him for half the price

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01-04-2013, 10:51 PM
  #175
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Where did I say Booth is going to be bought out, or even should be at this point? I think your indignant outrage at this is quite humorous.

Honestly, I don't care where the "math" says David Booth fits amongst top 6 players around the league. Anyone who actually watches the game with any sort of discerning eye can tell that David Booth is a one dimensional scorer, who when he isn't scoring (which is all too often recently) isn't adding anything of value to the roster. I'm sure there are 20 or so teams that would love to have David Booth in their top 6...hell I'd like to have 2008-09 David Booth in our lineup, the point is there are a lot of ****** teams in this league, and a lot of average teams in this league and thats where David Booth (in his current form) is a great top 6 forward...not on a team that wants to contend. And so with that, I have no intention of trying to name 5 other teams that wouldn't slot Booth in, because I would like to think we are one of the 5 teams that doesn't need a sub-standard David Booth in our lineup. If he isn't substandard this season (hopefully), then its a moot point.

As for your ignorant attack of my comment, it's called an "opinion"...I believe that $4.25m/year spent on a one dimensional, 40 point winger is an overpayment, it might very well be "the going rate" but I'm not interested in that if there are other, better value options that might be available.

Btw...I'd love to see these "statistics" that prove that David Booth is a wonderful top 6 forward because it's certainly not his goals, assists or point totals.

And FYI, you might want to put the calculator down, put the stats sheets away and actually watch some hockey games, I find it much more entertaining and informative.
"Honestly, I don't care where the "math" says"
-Then don't use terms like "average" as they're purely mathematical.

"And so with that, I have no intention of trying to name 5 other teams that wouldn't slot Booth in, because I would like to think we are one of the 5 teams that doesn't need a sub-standard David Booth in our lineup."
-If you took the time to, I think you'd find that each of those teams simply had superior wing depth to our team. We're definitely not top-5 in that regard, but our depth in other areas is generally superior.

-Also, not sub-standard. Again, statistically above average. You can't use a term like "standard" if you're not able to identify a standard other than personal opinion.

"it might very well be "the going rate" but I'm not interested in that if there are other, better value options that might be available."

-Again, if that's "the going rate," as you have admitted, then any better value options are, by definition, bargains. Why do you think that these bargain top-6 forwards would be readily available? Do you have any actual examples? Are you particularly favourable towards trading Burrows, or even Higgins, for example? Then don't expect other teams to give away their bargains.

"Btw...I'd love to see these "statistics" that prove that David Booth is a wonderful top 6 forward because it's certainly not his goals, assists or point totals."
-They are his goals, assists, and point totals, in fact. Especially when compared league-wide to other second-line forwards. Again, he is above average, nothing more, nothing less. This is even more apparent when opportunity enters into the mix, but it doesn't have to for my statement to be true. You can look them up yourself.

"And FYI, you might want to put the calculator down, put the stats sheets away and actually watch some hockey games, I find it much more entertaining and informative. "
-This is an excellent cap to a generally ignorant post, in which you used logical fallacies like punctuation, spoke oddly emotionally, and even used profanity to try to make your point.

-This paragraph is both a strawman fallacy and a definite ad hominem. I'll let you google those.

-No calculator required, just a set of eyes and an internet connection.

-First of all, I never insinuated that my opinion was superior to yours, only different. However, when this occurs, generally people have to use objective reasoning to argue their point. The only alternative is subjective, meaning the reasoning can change from person to person, which means that such discussion is always circular, pointless, and inconclusive. If that's what you want, I encourage you to explore canucks.com. How else do you propose you are going to prove your point over mine, without using what you laughingly put in quotations as "statistics." Unless, of course, you have some proof that you are a more valid hockey opinion than myself. I can wait...

-Secondly, I did not insinuate that you did not watch enough Canucks games, but rather than you watched too many, and it has left you with a distorted view. You are expecting the Canucks' depth to be uniform, and that is not possible. Not with 30 teams in the league and a salary cap. Again, I am not stating that David Booth is the ideal second-liner for us. Better options do exist, but they are not available. I would love to point out that I am not even a fan of David Booth, and hope he can be replaced, I just think the notion of buying him out makes no logical sense. Until someone of better value becomes available, and acquirable without gutting our depth in other areas, it would be asinine to buyout Booth in anticipation of such a player becoming available. Given that you haven't presented any such options, I must assume that this is in fact what you want to do, and I believe that it is logically nonsensical. I'm sure most reading this will see that, however I do not expect you to. You seem to be relish the illogical, so I'm not sure why you don't suggest we simply wish for a better winger...

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