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Lockout VII: I've walked for miles, my feet are hurting

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01-04-2013, 06:21 PM
  #176
Ernie
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Whether you think the PA's lawyers should have caught the HRR changes or not, you've still got to blame the league for once again trying to add something they KNOW is outrageous and pretending it's a negotiating position.

Just more evidence that the NHL has not been negotiating in good faith, not even now.

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01-04-2013, 06:30 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Yes, that's what I remember as well. KK's keeps track of all the tweets and reports, so it's probably on his page 2-3 now.
(1/2)On "bait and switch" charges:league says HRR language given to players on Dec. 27, and players acknowledged it with follow-up questions (2/2) on 12-29 and 1-1, rendering bait-and-switch charges, to league, as bogus attempt at redo on disclaimer vote

https://twitter.com/adater/status/287257257832488960

https://twitter.com/adater/status/287257799338123264

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01-04-2013, 06:33 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
(1/2)On "bait and switch" charges:league says HRR language given to players on Dec. 27, and players acknowledged it with follow-up questions

https://twitter.com/adater/status/287257257832488960
so what........the players didnt catch it ...ie didnt ask questions about it .... so its been acknowledged by players????

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01-04-2013, 06:44 PM
  #179
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It seems like the players are either acting or are completely naive and disorganized throughout this entire process. Everything blindsides them, which is completely baffling since their leader is a 'master' at the process. Everything the league does the players seem to think comes out of left field. Shouldn't Fehr have some ability to give them scenarios of what could happen?

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01-04-2013, 06:46 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by crazyforhockey View Post
so what........the players didnt catch it ...ie didnt ask questions about it .... so its been acknowledged by players????
The league are saying they told the players on December 27th and the players asked questions about it on December 29th and January 1st.

The PA are saying it was switched recently without their knowledge.

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01-04-2013, 06:52 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by IME View Post
What I don't get is how the league thought it would get away with that move. Do they think the PA's legal staff are a bunch of morons?
Heh. According to Elliot Friedman, it took a week for PA lawyers to realize what NHL was proposing. Morons? I wouldn't go that far.

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01-04-2013, 06:52 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
It seems like the players are either acting or are completely naive and disorganized throughout this entire process. Everything blindsides them, which is completely baffling since their leader is a 'master' at the process. Everything the league does the players seem to think comes out of left field. Shouldn't Fehr have some ability to give them scenarios of what could happen?
What boggles the mind is how they seem stunned the owners are making changes to 'agreed' upon terms. Once something is offered the PA acts as though it must stay, yet demands more. They turned down previous offers, so yes, subsequent ones may be less appealing. Such is the nature of this process. You do not get to "keep" only what you fancy and demand more.

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01-04-2013, 06:56 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
What boggles the mind is how they seem stunned the owners are making changes to 'agreed' upon terms. Once something is offered the PA acts as though it must stay, yet demands more. They turned down previous offers, so yes, subsequent ones may be less appealing. Such is the nature of this process. You do not get to "keep" only what you fancy and demand more.
Isn't that how Fehr killed the deal 3 weeks ago? He took the make whole money, and said he didn't want to give in on the 5 yr contract issue...it's a follow leader kind of mentality...although let's face it, both sides are trying to pick and choose...

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01-04-2013, 07:04 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyforhockey View Post
so what........the players didnt catch it ...ie didnt ask questions about it .... so its been acknowledged by players????
Quote:
league says HRR language given to players on Dec. 27, and players acknowledged it with follow-up questions (2/2) on 12-29 and 1-1
He's saying the players acknowledged it, and then asked questions about it. Both on the 29th, and on the 1st.

Where's the confusion about this?

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01-04-2013, 07:18 PM
  #185
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You don't need a link to know what common practice is in the US (or around the world) when business entities exchange confidential/detailed information.
So you're saying that after everything PA has leaked to their shills, this is not one of them and despite everything we have heard from just about every hockey journo around, this is an issue we haven't heard about?

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@Riptide. It's not a 'game' and people don't just leak information that was given over after nondisclosure/confidentiality agreements are signed.
Fugu, the issues at hand have been covered by just about every hockey journo around. Do you think it's reasonable to assume that every journo has decided not to report about NHL profits/losses or that all parties involved in negotiatons have decided not to even talk about having NDAs to journos?

I find it extremely hard to believe that there are NDAs which prohibit anyone even talking about the existence of alleged NDAs.

Publicly listed companies are ready to tell anyone that there are issues they can't talk about in public. NHL has something different?

Quote:
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The NHL wouldn't just hand over hundreds of thousands of pages of detailed financial records without feeling fairly safe that there would be no leaks. They're not naive nor would they take chances with member club information without certain guarantees in place.
Ok so let's assume that nothing has leaked. Why has the PA agreed to 50-50 split then? Had they agreed to take 50-50 if NHL clubs were financially healthy?

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01-04-2013, 07:30 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Whether you think the PA's lawyers should have caught the HRR changes or not, you've still got to blame the league for once again trying to add something they KNOW is outrageous and pretending it's a negotiating position.

Just more evidence that the NHL has not been negotiating in good faith, not even now.
NHL made a proposal, it's not up to NHL to make sure that the million-dollar lawyers NHLPA employs understand it. If you're not sure, ask for clarifications. Whining & crying about not spotting it a week later makes both NHLPA and their lawyers look stupid. Just like Friedman suggested.

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01-04-2013, 07:42 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
NHL made a proposal, it's not up to NHL to make sure that the million-dollar lawyers NHLPA employs understand it. If you're not sure, ask for clarifications. Whining & crying about not spotting it a week later makes both NHLPA and their lawyers look stupid. Just like Friedman suggested.
That's whats funny. The NHL says the PA did ask for clarification - twice!

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01-04-2013, 07:44 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
It was likely an error. NHL is not trying to sneak anything through. If the NHLPA lawyers did not read the entire document and it passed it would on them not the NHL. Regardless, with all the changing going back and forth, neither side would sign the agreement until someone has re read the entire document. On a 300 + page document, errors can happen.

I also deal with contracts, and after many changes back and forth, I always re read the document in its entirety to make sure nothing else has changed. It is called due diligence. Their lawyers caught it; therefore, the system of checks and balances worked.

Move along everyone, nothing to see here.
Sure, after I do the due diligence..

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01-04-2013, 07:56 PM
  #189
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Here's a prime example that makes me ask, Do most of these players even know the details of what's being negotiated?:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/01/04/...-phillips-says
Quote:
"It's great that we're at 50-50 now, but 50-50 of what? That's just ridiculous. We're trying to get a deal done, and negotiate in good faith, and they pull garbage like that. That's not going to get anything done."
For one, why would a player say "it's great that we're at 50/50 now"? Unless Phillips is really altruistic and believes the owners should've rightly had 50% all along. Or does Phillips even know that 50/50 will be a drop in what he can expect in his salary?

Secondly though, the negotiations don't have the sides at 50/50 now. 50/50 is still the owners objective, but the increases in Make Whole have pushed 50/50 until probably 5 years down the road. Phillips asks, "50-50 of what?",... but does he even know that it's not 50/50 at all? He almost sounds like it's the players who are gaining the 50/50 position, but he doesn't believe it's real. Haha... Yes, Phillips, the League is not actually giving you 50/50, they're trying to trick you players into being stuck with just the 43% you had in the last CBA.


And I say to Phillips... The owners called your bluff on the disclaimer. And they pulled one on you just like you guys did back when those Bettmanless/Fehrless negotiations were going on, and everything seemed to be going positively until the players came back with new demands. Tit for tat, Mr Phillips.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 01-04-2013 at 08:07 PM.
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01-04-2013, 08:10 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
NHL made a proposal, it's not up to NHL to make sure that the million-dollar lawyers NHLPA employs understand it. If you're not sure, ask for clarifications. Whining & crying about not spotting it a week later makes both NHLPA and their lawyers look stupid. Just like Friedman suggested.
It was just another tactic by PA leadership to "unify" the guys and keep them chanting. Josh Jorges interview today showed it can work like a charm.

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01-04-2013, 08:12 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Whether you think the PA's lawyers should have caught the HRR changes or not, you've still got to blame the league for once again trying to add something they KNOW is outrageous and pretending it's a negotiating position.
You don't even know what they added, let alone whether or not it's outrageous.

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01-04-2013, 08:19 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
You don't even know what they added, let alone whether or not it's outrageous.
According to all the reports I've read the language involved penalties for hiding HRR. Penalties went from defined - 1st round draft pick for first offense, etc. to discretion of commissioner. Pretty outrageous - if true.

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01-04-2013, 08:26 PM
  #193
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According to all the reports I've read the language involved penalties for hiding HRR. Penalties went from defined - 1st round draft pick for first offense, etc. to discretion of commissioner. Pretty outrageous - if true.
Whoever had the nerve to this was acceptable to put in the cba deserves to be slapped and kicked around for a few hours by the League's nastiest goons. Hell they deserve to watch it happen to a loved one. Under no circumstances should behaviour like this be tolerated from anyone.

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01-04-2013, 08:27 PM
  #194
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According to all the reports I've read the language involved penalties for hiding HRR. Penalties went from defined - 1st round draft pick for first offense, etc. to discretion of commissioner. Pretty outrageous - if true.
Wouldn't that help the players...?

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01-04-2013, 08:31 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
It seems like the players are either acting or are completely naive and disorganized throughout this entire process. Everything blindsides them, which is completely baffling since their leader is a 'master' at the process. Everything the league does the players seem to think comes out of left field. Shouldn't Fehr have some ability to give them scenarios of what could happen?
I think if Fehr has the option to fan or put out flames, he chooses the former more often than not. Helps prevent combat weariness, I suppose.

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01-04-2013, 08:38 PM
  #196
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Wouldn't that help the players...?
How would lowering the penalty on cheating owners benefit players...?

 
Old
01-04-2013, 08:51 PM
  #197
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Haha, you have to laugh at both sides at this point. Bettman says he is ready to cancel the season and Fehr is calling the players together for another disclaimer vote. They are both full of crap and this screams of POSTURING!
The difference is the PA doesn't ever have to file the DOI. The league, however, at some point will have to cancel the season.

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01-04-2013, 09:30 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by BoltSTH View Post
If it goes to court can the mediators be called as witnesses? If so I would think their view of if who did, didn't do any negotiating in good faith would have a major impact on the ruling.
One of the key concepts of mediation and mediators is that both sides of a disagreement should be able to trust the mediators with information they wouldn't give to the other party in the dispute.

If mediators could be called into court to weigh on the conduct of either party it could undermine the independent role that mediation is supposed to serve.


Last edited by mouser: 01-04-2013 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Typo
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01-04-2013, 09:33 PM
  #199
haseoke39
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One of the key concepts of mediation and mediators is that both sides of a disagreement should be able to trust the mediators with information they wouldn't give to the other party in the dispute.

If mediators could be called into court to weigh on the conduct of either party it could undermine the indoendent role that mediation is supposed to serve.
Not only that, but this whole idea that either side isn't negotiating in good faith is such ********. Negotiating in good faith, legally, is such a low bar that as long as you show up and don't commit fraud, the courts won't **** with you. The standard is basically, did you commit fraud. The court doesn't want to have anything to do with deciding whether 54% or 50% is fair and therefore who should've been doing the moving and when. It would undermine the freedom to contract. Both sides are legally allowed to be as intransigent in negotiations as they want.

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01-04-2013, 09:38 PM
  #200
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When we get offical disclaimer ,then only then will this get to the endzone .


Last edited by Habaneros: 01-04-2013 at 10:02 PM.
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