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Luongo: The Neverending Story

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Old
01-04-2013, 06:03 PM
  #76
marty111
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
In the summer we couldn't find a lot of traction in trade talks, partially because of your insistence of sending back salary and our potential cap concerns. With the two compliance buyouts now proposed in the new CBA this might no longer be a cause for concern.

If we were to take back Upshall in a deal and buy him out, what other assets could you see the team parting with?
You have to consider that they could always buy out Upshall themselves. As it is my understanding, whatever new deal Upshall signs, Florida only pays the difference.

So in that case, a few million isn't going to buy anything too significant. We saw the swap of Lebda/Lombardi turning out Cody Franson for a similar comparison even though there was no buyout on the Leafs end..

What we do know:

Each team will be able to drop two player off their cap, as long as the contract was signed during the 2005 CBA.
The team is still responsible for paying that player for the remainder of the contract, it just won't show up on their cap.
The amnesty buyout still comes out of the PA's share.
The player will be placed on waivers, allowing other teams to submit contract offers to his agent.
Should a contract be accepted with a new team, his original team only has to pay the player for the difference between the two contracts (let's call this amnesty portion).

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01-04-2013, 06:12 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
True, its certainly possible to keep Luongo. I realize that. But my question was more along the lines of SHOULD they which you believe yes they should.

I can certainly see the fiscal stand point. The question becomes is weakening the forward group worth it? What's the end game? Why hold on to Luongo as a tandem goalie even though he apparently wanted to move on? Are you planning on trading him say the next deadline if a team has more cap space and re-adjusting the forward group from there?

Is it just me or does buying out Booth make the Canucks winger situation a little weak (for a contender)?
Main point should they? I guess it all depends on everything else, I can't really answer that. As stated earlier, I don't think it matters because we can, therefore it is not a bluff to be called.

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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Works in theory but it hardly makes sense. By retaining Luongo under those parameters, we would ice a considerably inferior team. When every team is aware of our bleak alternative, they will not offer previously perceived demands. Frankly, we are better off trading Schneider in that scenario to at least muscle a good return.
I agree with you, but I think you are missing earlier points in this debate, that make my point make more sense.

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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Luongo's value will be determined by the same thing as everyone else: market. The question is, what is the market?
I agree to an extent, but if there is 5 teams, that still creates a bit of a bidding war. Also right there, the leafs would not get him, as if they are all low prices, he goes to FLA. It makes the most sense for many reasons.

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01-04-2013, 06:17 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
You have to consider that they could always buy out Upshall themselves. As it is my understanding, whatever new deal Upshall signs, Florida only pays the difference.

So in that case, a few million isn't going to buy anything too significant. We saw the swap of Lebda/Lombardi turning out Cody Franson for a similar comparison even though there was no buyout on the Leafs end..

What we do know:

Each team will be able to drop two player off their cap, as long as the contract was signed during the 2005 CBA.
The team is still responsible for paying that player for the remainder of the contract, it just won't show up on their cap.
The amnesty buyout still comes out of the PA's share.
The player will be placed on waivers, allowing other teams to submit contract offers to his agent.
Should a contract be accepted with a new team, his original team only has to pay the player for the difference between the two contracts (let's call this amnesty portion).
I think there is a lot more to it than this. As another example, we got Booth to basically clear salary of FLA. It also matters with who pays the real dollars.

Also, nothing is for sure until it is finished. Things can still change, for the better or for the worst.

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01-04-2013, 06:20 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
You have to consider that they could always buy out Upshall themselves. As it is my understanding, whatever new deal Upshall signs, Florida only pays the difference.

So in that case, a few million isn't going to buy anything too significant. We saw the swap of Lebda/Lombardi turning out Cody Franson for a similar comparison even though there was no buyout on the Leafs end..

What we do know:

Each team will be able to drop two player off their cap, as long as the contract was signed during the 2005 CBA.
The team is still responsible for paying that player for the remainder of the contract, it just won't show up on their cap.
The amnesty buyout still comes out of the PA's share.
The player will be placed on waivers, allowing other teams to submit contract offers to his agent.
Should a contract be accepted with a new team, his original team only has to pay the player for the difference between the two contracts (let's call this amnesty portion).
Sure they could. This isn't meant to provide any sort of considerable further incentive - it's meant to facilitate a scenario where Vancouver can take back salary in the deal without putting themselves in cap hell. The few million dollars it will save Florida might not be a huge deal to them, but it's still a few million dollars they save that would help them afford Lu.

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01-04-2013, 06:31 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I appreciate the thought and it is a good post. That said, your proposals come in at what I would consider the "too rich to make sense for the Leafs" range.
I can appriciate that. I, naturally posting such proposals, disagree and ask you to weigh the improvement of the goaltending position across a whole (condensed) season vs. the offense and/or potential you lose, but I respect what you're saying. If you don't see the benefit the way we do at this point, throwing "facts" and opinions and stats at you won't alter your position now. I feel that is being more then accommodating from our side, and if its not far enough, well all the best, I hope Bernier makes it to town cheaply (I'm 100% sincere). We simply can't lose Lou for less.

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01-04-2013, 06:36 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
I agree with you, but I think you are missing earlier points in this debate, that make my point make more sense.
Perhaps I have, as I cannot envision a scenario with us running the Luongo/Schneider tandem under a $60M cap. That does not mean we gift Lu to scraps but any lofty expectations would be reduced. What I do agree with buy him out is not an option and never will be.

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01-04-2013, 06:39 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I appreciate the thought and it is a good post. That said, your proposals come in at what I would consider the "too rich to make sense for the Leafs" range.
Curious, putting aside the cap for a moment. What would the Leafs range be? Keeping in mind either side could add for a mutually better overall return.

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01-04-2013, 07:00 PM
  #83
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There were reports earlier that under the new CBA it was proposed that if a player on a long term contract is traded (such as Luongo), and retires before the end of the contract, that the cap hit would revert back to the team that signed him and continue until the end of the contract.

I have not seen anything lately; is this still on the table?

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01-04-2013, 07:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
There were reports earlier that under the new CBA it was proposed that if a player on a long term contract is traded (such as Luongo), and retires before the end of the contract, that the cap hit would revert back to the team that signed him and continue until the end of the contract.

I have not seen anything lately; is this still on the table?
Not sure what is on the table at the moment for BDC, but the last thing we heard that I am aware of was from the NHLPA, that did two things, first it grandfathered contracts in like Lui's or Kovy, second it took an average of the cap being circumvented and adds that as the hit instead of the original hit.

So it would be just a portion of the players cap hit based on a calculation.

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01-04-2013, 07:11 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
There were reports earlier that under the new CBA it was proposed that if a player on a long term contract is traded (such as Luongo), and retires before the end of the contract, that the cap hit would revert back to the team that signed him and continue until the end of the contract.

I have not seen anything lately; is this still on the table?
there was also a report saying the opposite. at this point in time we have no idea which way it will go

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01-04-2013, 07:31 PM
  #86
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Strombone ‏@strombone1

I have a confession that I've been keeping from you guys for way too long...... pic.twitter.com/ESdKcrlg



LMFAO

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01-04-2013, 07:38 PM
  #87
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See, it's things like that that make me not want to trade him.

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01-04-2013, 08:34 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
See, it's things like that that make me not want to trade him.
OT here, but Dave Pratt did report a few months ago that strombone1 was actually (and had always been) Jason Botchford. I noticed activity died down a lot after he said that. But hey, it's Pratt.

Also, still amazes me how this thread saga keeps going.

Anyway, carry on.

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01-04-2013, 08:36 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
OT here, but Dave Pratt did report a few months ago that strombone1 was actually (and had always been) Jason Botchford. I noticed activity died down a lot after he said that. But hey, it's Pratt.

Also, still amazes me how this thread saga keeps going.

Anyway, carry on.
Pratt lost any credibility he may of had when he threw a temper tantrum on team1040 when Don Taylor kept saying poker is a sport just to piss him off.

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01-04-2013, 08:50 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
OT here, but Dave Pratt did report a few months ago that strombone1 was actually (and had always been) Jason Botchford. I noticed activity died down a lot after he said that. But hey, it's Pratt.

Also, still amazes me how this thread saga keeps going.

Anyway, carry on.
pratt was trolling.

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01-04-2013, 09:07 PM
  #91
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I honestly would not be surprised if Strombone was someone like Bieksa, after his troll interview as Kesler

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01-04-2013, 10:21 PM
  #92
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So a mid 2nd round pick, a 3rd line center who is an upcoming UFA, and a mediocre prospect for an all-star goalie with a good cap hit?

Counter: 2nd + Raymond + Rodin for Lupul
I had no idea Lupul aged 4 years; was on the verge of being benched due to being outperformed; then signed a 10 year deal.……

You missed the point of these million Luongo threads…….

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01-04-2013, 11:03 PM
  #93
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I can appriciate that. I, naturally posting such proposals, disagree and ask you to weigh the improvement of the goaltending position across a whole (condensed) season vs. the offense and/or potential you lose, but I respect what you're saying. If you don't see the benefit the way we do at this point, throwing "facts" and opinions and stats at you won't alter your position now. I feel that is being more then accommodating from our side, and if its not far enough, well all the best, I hope Bernier makes it to town cheaply (I'm 100% sincere). We simply can't lose Lou for less.
The improvement in goaltending is tempting, no doubt. The issue (at least for me) is that I don't believe Luongo to be the correct move at this point due to his age (33, while not old, doesn't leave much time for improvement before the twilight of his career). He's a great goalie and gives the Leafs a good shot at playoffs but the Leafs team is at a point where its still under construction and won't likely hit a position where they are ready to do more than a first round exit for a while yet. In my mind, we need a goalie of the future type (like say a Schneider) much more than a goalie in Luongo's position. If managment believes Reimer is that guy, then a veteran stop gap is in order. Something like what Florida is doing...using Theodore/Clemmensen as stop gaps/mentors while focusing on Markstrom as the goalie of the future - and Florida is further along in their construction than the Leafs are at least in terms of recent results.


Basically, if one of the trades you propose goes down, we end up with a top end ready to compete goaltender in his mid thirties, a defense core that is shakey but loaded with future potential, and a forward group built on a hope and a prayer (and a Kessel) with holes now and in the future.

Unless Burke has some magic up his sleeve to rapidly rebuild the forward group (like a free agency spree) we end up with something that resembles a mess...basically a team in different stages of the hockey life cycle.

Now Burke could easily see it differently than I do. Even then, I don't see him moving Lupul....but I've been wrong before. If he was to acquire Luongo our goaltending immediately gets much better and I like that. I think because of this Luongo is a tempting trade, but not a smart one if its going to damage our already iffy core of players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Curious, putting aside the cap for a moment. What would the Leafs range be? Keeping in mind either side could add for a mutually better overall return.
Following my horribly long winded post above, I would say that the Leafs range could go as high as a good prospect, a second line player and a 2nd rounder or two (and/or lower prospect). The issue is when you start getting into core players (which Lupul has become for us and which Vancouver likely wants) the prospect of a cheaper stop gap solution while keeping our pieces looks better and better.

Now that's all what I think looks reasonable. As for Burke, I honestly don't know which way he'll go on this. He's always talked about not making moves just to make the playoffs instead of looking at the big picture but if he deems the team ready for the next step, things could get interesting.

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01-04-2013, 11:54 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by BayStBullies View Post
I had no idea Lupul aged 4 years; was on the verge of being benched due to being outperformed; then signed a 10 year deal.……

You missed the point of these million Luongo threads…….
"Benched"? Schneider took over for two games! Where was this concern when Schneider took over for Lu due to injuries in November and didn't immediately surrender the reins when Luongo was cleared? 6 or 7 games, and it didn't garner half the "Luongo's job is threatened" ideas.

Lupul is also a UFA, not signed for 10, or even 3, or 2, years. And 4 years makes that big a difference in age?

We've answered, to my standards, approvingly, every criticism that has been answered and moved on from. Age, contract, presumed drop in play, it's arguing circles.

The contract is a double-edged sword, the Leafs fans seem to only see the length, and not that Rinne or Lundquist, two of maybe three goalies you can argue to be "better" then Lu that are playing this year, are making much, much more in terms of cap space, and I believe in the same ball park for actual salary.

Luongo is expected to play, and play well, into is late thirties, giving, at worst barring the unforseen, 5 years of high quality play. You don't have to believe us on our opinion alone, but if he becomes a burden to the team, he will opt to retire or request a trade. Look at what he did here when the media and fans were calling for his head, blowing Schneiders starts way out of proportion.

That and he has played consistently, and at a very high level, since he started in this league. You might argue that he can't keep it up much longer, where as I see a proven track record. If you don't have the age with that, you don't have the track record, and you end up with another Toskala, or Raycroft, or Giguere, or Monster. You don't have to take him, but saying he's old and his play will just drop...well it's not worth worrying about when these have been the past flash in the pan answers Burke and his predecessor have chosen.

Any way, we're all going to see what we want to see, so if you see no positives to his contract or experience, super, don't make a bid, sir. I am, and we are (more or less, collectively), happy holding on to Luongo and his elite play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
The improvement in goaltending is tempting, no doubt. The issue (at least for me) is that I don't believe Luongo to be the correct move at this point due to his age (33, while not old, doesn't leave much time for improvement before the twilight of his career). He's a great goalie and gives the Leafs a good shot at playoffs but the Leafs team is at a point where its still under construction and won't likely hit a position where they are ready to do more than a first round exit for a while yet. In my mind, we need a goalie of the future type (like say a Schneider) much more than a goalie in Luongo's position. If managment believes Reimer is that guy, then a veteran stop gap is in order. Something like what Florida is doing...using Theodore/Clemmensen as stop gaps/mentors while focusing on Markstrom as the goalie of the future - and Florida is further along in their construction than the Leafs are at least in terms of recent results.


Basically, if one of the trades you propose goes down, we end up with a top end ready to compete goaltender in his mid thirties, a defense core that is shakey but loaded with future potential, and a forward group built on a hope and a prayer (and a Kessel) with holes now and in the future.

Unless Burke has some magic up his sleeve to rapidly rebuild the forward group (like a free agency spree) we end up with something that resembles a mess...basically a team in different stages of the hockey life cycle.

Now Burke could easily see it differently than I do. Even then, I don't see him moving Lupul....but I've been wrong before. If he was to acquire Luongo our goaltending immediately gets much better and I like that. I think because of this Luongo is a tempting trade, but not a smart one if its going to damage our already iffy core of players.



Following my horribly long winded post above, I would say that the Leafs range could go as high as a good prospect, a second line player and a 2nd rounder or two (and/or lower prospect). The issue is when you start getting into core players (which Lupul has become for us and which Vancouver likely wants) the prospect of a cheaper stop gap solution while keeping our pieces looks better and better.

Now that's all what I think looks reasonable. As for Burke, I honestly don't know which way he'll go on this. He's always talked about not making moves just to make the playoffs instead of looking at the big picture but if he deems the team ready for the next step, things could get interesting.
A goalie of the future could be had from us, but you really wouldn't like the asking price. Luongo is not a perfect fit, granted, but then neither are the pieces that were rumoured to be the key pieces (Bozak and Kadri) for the Canucks. We have the "boom or bust" kind of prospect in Kassian (I say boom, Canucks say boom, everyone else seems to think bust), although his size and defensive acumen could have him in a bottom six role easier the Kadri, and a third line center (here) we could probably fill with Schroeder, if not our plethora of bottom six centers in training.

I hear you loud and clear though, he's not in the age bracket Toronto wants to pay top dollar for. And again, asking here, not trying to presume anything, or come off as being a troll, but let's say Reimer doesn't stack up well this year, what would be your preferred non-Luongo course of action? I'm sincerely curious. Bernier? Hope for Backstrom in free agency? Thomas? I mean there are other choices for sure, but most aren't terribly younger then Lu either (well....ok, Bernier). Again, absolute sincerity, I want to make it clear I'm not trying to provoke someone due to a sarcastic tone or something.

If I may be candid and honest as well, your D is fine with or with out Luongo, even without Schenn. For all the crap Phaneuf gets, he's a solid top pairing guy, and Gardiner, Liles, Gunnar and the usual clusterbomb of bottom pairing/spares in Komisarek and Franson, plus others, aren't something to hold your breath waiting to improve through trade. That's solid. If that's what you think the problem with the Leafs is, we are watching two very different sets of games.

A solid playmaker (surprise), possibly as a top six center, and I think the offence would be solved, together or as separate elements, fixes the offence, should someone that fits the bill become available. Top six forwards are easier to find then elite goalies, and "elite" forwards might go a further way to solving Toronto's problems, but I don't see anyone in that mold that is available, Luongo could be.

As for the forwards, success will make free agency easier, and will make Toronto a destination. I'm not saying Luongo strictly here, but resigning the Kessels, and even the MacArthurs and Kulemins, and heaven forbid, even higher name free agents (eventually) become cheaper and easier with success prior to their arrival. We didn't just get the Hamhuis', Garrisons, Sundins, Demitras, Samuelssons, Malhotras and resigning players like Kesler, the Sedins, Schneider, Luongo, Bieksa, Higgins, Lapierre and Burrows (proven the first time, pending the second) because their all locals who wanted to play here win or lose, success brings further success, and whether or not you trade Lu, it becomes a lot more simple to keep and add players you want and need to the roster without paying through the nose.

Finally, if Lupul is a core player, what would you be expecting of Luongo? I'm not trying to sabotage you and hit you with a bag of doorknobs here, but the poster above me cited his age as 4 years younger then Luongo, and yet he has found a role mentoring players, while still contributing. Luongo has been more then part of our core, he has been our MVP in the time since we traded for him, and anyone else, Sedins, Kesler or anyone, is, at best a distant second. Not trying to force the Lupul issue, just saying Luongo would instantly become part of the core in a big way, with leadership, play and even the way he's handling our jerk faces when our media's selling us on moving him after ever game the Canucks lose 1-0. Food for thought I guess.

My turn to apologize about being longwinded.

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01-05-2013, 12:28 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
The improvement in goaltending is tempting, no doubt. The issue (at least for me) is that I don't believe Luongo to be the correct move at this point due to his age (33, while not old, doesn't leave much time for improvement before the twilight of his career). He's a great goalie and gives the Leafs a good shot at playoffs but the Leafs team is at a point where its still under construction and won't likely hit a position where they are ready to do more than a first round exit for a while yet. In my mind, we need a goalie of the future type (like say a Schneider) much more than a goalie in Luongo's position. If managment believes Reimer is that guy, then a veteran stop gap is in order. Something like what Florida is doing...using Theodore/Clemmensen as stop gaps/mentors while focusing on Markstrom as the goalie of the future - and Florida is further along in their construction than the Leafs are at least in terms of recent results.


Basically, if one of the trades you propose goes down, we end up with a top end ready to compete goaltender in his mid thirties, a defense core that is shakey but loaded with future potential, and a forward group built on a hope and a prayer (and a Kessel) with holes now and in the future.

Unless Burke has some magic up his sleeve to rapidly rebuild the forward group (like a free agency spree) we end up with something that resembles a mess...basically a team in different stages of the hockey life cycle.

Now Burke could easily see it differently than I do. Even then, I don't see him moving Lupul....but I've been wrong before. If he was to acquire Luongo our goaltending immediately gets much better and I like that. I think because of this Luongo is a tempting trade, but not a smart one if its going to damage our already iffy core of players.



Following my horribly long winded post above, I would say that the Leafs range could go as high as a good prospect, a second line player and a 2nd rounder or two (and/or lower prospect). The issue is when you start getting into core players (which Lupul has become for us and which Vancouver likely wants) the prospect of a cheaper stop gap solution while keeping our pieces looks better and better.

Now that's all what I think looks reasonable. As for Burke, I honestly don't know which way he'll go on this. He's always talked about not making moves just to make the playoffs instead of looking at the big picture but if he deems the team ready for the next step, things could get interesting.
As Cogburn eluded, Schneider is an option some of us would explore. Unfortunately, the asking price increases notably given his age, contract and ceiling. Gardiner+ is what I'd demand, or a substantial addition to Lupul; possibly those two and we add. Frankly, that may be the better alternative given the players we want may not be amongst your core once Toronto is legitimately competing on a consistent basis.

Nevertheless, I can appreciate Toronto being hesitant to pull the trigger on core aspects being shifted out, whether for Luongo or Schneider however, we simply cannot afford to settle. The Sedin era has a maximum of a best case scenario and whichever goalie is dealt may be the biggest trade the organization has ever made, at least in terms of hopeful payoff. Suffice it to say we do not want to wait another seventeen years to repeat. If Schneider is appealing enough to open discussion with a better return, then I'd prefer that route than selling Luongo for even good assets that simply will not help us immediately.

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01-05-2013, 12:51 AM
  #96
Phion Keneuf
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If Canucks fans like Luongo so much then keep him.

Oh wait, he is inevitably going to be traded, yet you still want full value for him.
Keep dreaming.

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01-05-2013, 12:53 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
As Cogburn eluded, Schneider is an option some of us would explore. Unfortunately, the asking price increases notably given his age, contract and ceiling. Gardiner+ is what I'd demand, or a substantial addition to Lupul; possibly those two and we add. Frankly, that may be the better alternative given the players we want may not be amongst your core once Toronto is legitimately competing on a consistent basis.

Nevertheless, I can appreciate Toronto being hesitant to pull the trigger on core aspects being shifted out, whether for Luongo or Schneider however, we simply cannot afford to settle. The Sedin era has a maximum of a best case scenario and whichever goalie is dealt may be the biggest trade the organization has ever made, at least in terms of hopeful payoff. Suffice it to say we do not want to wait another seventeen years to repeat. If Schneider is appealing enough to open discussion with a better return, then I'd prefer that route than selling Luongo for even good assets that simply will not help us immediately.
It should be noted, that the value for Schneider is higher, for me at least, simply because the people asking knock Lu's age, contract status and....well that's it. Schneider is the anti-Luongo, 3 year term at 4 million, but he doesn't have the NHL track record Lu has. Highest save % for the number of games he's played of any goalie, and a beautiful record in College and the AHL and all other levels, but not the NHL. If you won't pay full price for the reasons listed for Lu, no one can in the right mind, then expect to get Schneider cheaper.

Anyway, some of us may be good trading him, others aren't, it comes with the territory. I'd want Gardiner+JVR for Schneider with an addition like a second and Raymond or something, in other words it's not happening (I'm not looking for a flamewar on this, I know Toronto doesn't want to pay this, and to most Toronto fans having "maybes" not work out, I understand wholly, that is purely as a Canucks fan that I am saying that, you shouldn't pay that price IMO). I'm open to offers, but I still insist that Toronto and Vancouver are a poor match out side of "needs goalie" and "has goalie to spare".

I agree with the second paragraph in it's entirely however.

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01-05-2013, 01:00 AM
  #98
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And actually, now that I think about it, we got Luongo at about the same age, and in similar circumstances, to what Schneider is now. Luongo was being moved due to contract disputes and maybe a little bad blood with management, where as Schneider is a rookie sensation that could displace our bonafide number one goalie. Those are the differences, and that Schneider is no longer RFA, but is signed for three years, where Luongo was unsigned, and got 6.75 million in a 47 million dollar cap era.

Not potato=potaatoe, but not apples to oranges either. The Luongo/Kraijeck/6th for Allen/Bert/Auld would apply beautifully there.

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01-05-2013, 01:02 AM
  #99
Nuckles
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
If Canucks fans like Luongo so much then keep him.

Oh wait, he is inevitably going to be traded, yet you still want full value for him.
Keep dreaming.
If Luongo has such low value, then why do Leafs fans want him?

But obviously all the Leafs players and prospects are god-like, and extremely valuable, so Vancouver should just accept what is offered.

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Old
01-05-2013, 01:03 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
If Canucks fans like Luongo so much then keep him.

Oh wait, he is inevitably going to be traded, yet you still want full value for him.
Keep dreaming.
This goes for the Bargin Bin Buyers that the Leafs send to these threads.

BTW concerning the thread name: Its a never ending story because you continue to allow it to be. There haven't been any pages, paragraphs ... heck even sentences that have been written by people who matter in a while. We could have closed these for a few months & nothing would have changed... All these threads have been doing is allowing Canuck & Leaf fans bicker back & forth.

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