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Are the big market teams the losers here?

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01-03-2013, 10:43 PM
  #126
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Post Lockout Detroit is not the same as Pre-lockout Detroit.

Part of that, IMO, is due to the cap. We can't trade for everyone's overpriced, washed up stars at the deadline anymore.

Part of it, IMO, is due to the fact that the Wings have lost many fan favorites over the years -- yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov, the grind line.

Part of it is due to the fact that we lack easy-to-identify-with North American stars.

And part of it, IMO, is that the Wings were damaged by the lockout.

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01-03-2013, 10:45 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
The Rangers outspent the Wings annually during the pre-cap days. The Wings won and NYR didn't. In Detroit we have a great owner who gave away cars in order to get butts in seats. It isn't like he just bought a franchise in HockeyTown and had instant success. He created a plan and built the most successful franchise in sports. He created HockeyTown. He did this without a salary cap in a city that has taken its lumps economically. The population has plummeted and still the Wings were successful. Then came a division with Nashville and Columbus, the lockouts, rule changes and then came the cap. There goes the Redwings. Now the league is locked out again and the damage will be even deeper. The teams that the cap was supposed to save are still wallowing in apathetic markets. All I see is a reduction in the quality of the product that I used to buy without any of the promised benefits.
See now this actually makes some sense. I would agree that some of the changes in the NHL have not been overly positive for the Wings but in my opinion you grossly overstate the effect these changes have had on the franchise. And fan support in even the greatest of hockey cities can waver from time to time. In Boston fan support nearly dried up in the late 90's early 2000's. It happens.

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01-03-2013, 10:57 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
If the Wings are so good at drafting players and developing those players (which I agree that they are) why can't they be the best of what you would call the "mediocre teams"?

If you want to blame the Wings issues on the cap then so be it. I personally think age has been the their biggest issue since the lockout but what do I know. My suggestion to you is to stop living in the past, put your late 90's Red Wings highlight film in storage and start embracing the new NHL. And remember nothing lasts forever. I have seen some dominating runs in professional sports in my life time, from the Celtics of the mid 80's to the current version of the Patriots and the one constant is they always end one way or another.
Apparently I still haven't communicated my point effectively. My bad.

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01-03-2013, 11:09 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Apparently I still haven't communicated my point effectively. My bad.
I get your point schminksbro..... Your frustrated with the NHL and rightfully so. You feel as though the Cap has restricted one of the best owners in the NHL from assembling a championship caliber team; teams he use to build by drafting/developing well and filling holes with experienced veterans. And you feel as though the cap, the new rules and the lockouts have done serious damage to the fan base in Detroit.

I don't agree with all of your opinions but I respect them all the same. I just hope you can find a way to love the league again. You clearly have a ton of passion and seem to be one hell of a hockey fan. The NHL really can't afford to lose fans like you.

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01-03-2013, 11:37 PM
  #130
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I know this is a pipe dream that is likely multiple collective bargaining agreements (CBAs) down the line if it ever happens, but I'd like to see a formula whereby every team keeps 50% of their own hockey-related revenue (HRR) + 1/30 of the remaining aggregate HRR, such that if the aggregate HRR of the previous season were $3.6 billion, every team would be guaranteed a theoretical minimum revenue stream of $60 million (though in practice, every single team will gross more). In addition to protecting the marginal markets that the NHL is leveraging in an attempt to grow the league and the game of hockey, such a system, married to a salary cap and a salary floor, would still give individual teams an incentive to maximize their profits, ice competitive teams, and bring in solid management cores (both from a hockey and from a business perspective). It would make NHL teams in emerging markets like the Sunbelt and the Lower Mid-West safer investments, thus bringing in a more stable and higher calibre of ownership (which in turn would give fans a better reason to grow attached to their region's new team, making it easier to grow the game, and thereby baking a bigger pie for everyone to share), it would eliminate the perversity of struggling teams getting screwed because some markets are doing "too" well, it would stop punishing owners, players, and fans alike for differences in market size and strength that are immaterial to how well a team is actually run (nobody can seriously say that the Leafs are currently run better than the Hurricanes or the Predators), and it would improve labour-management relations dramatically by not holding players accountable for business decisions over which they have little-to-no control, and by making the NHLPA willing to accept CBAs that do not mortgage the future of the league and of the game (because, let's not kid ourselves, hockey as a whole would be dealt a tremendous blow without North America and the world's premier professional league) for the sake of squeezing as much money for the players as possible.

Just as much of the labour movement has become too parochial to work for the common benefit of all workers (Why does the Canadian Labour Congress not have an affiliate for unorganized workers and the unemployed? Do they want non-unionized workers to keep electing Tory governments or something?), so too have the various interests within the NHL become too parochial to allow the league to become a force worthy of a game as grand as ice hockey.


Last edited by StoneColdFlower*: 01-03-2013 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Improved version I posted on Facebook
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01-04-2013, 07:55 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I get your point schminksbro..... Your frustrated with the NHL and rightfully so. You feel as though the Cap has restricted one of the best owners in the NHL from assembling a championship caliber team; teams he use to build by drafting/developing well and filling holes with experienced veterans. And you feel as though the cap, the new rules and the lockouts have done serious damage to the fan base in Detroit.

I don't agree with all of your opinions but I respect them all the same. I just hope you can find a way to love the league again. You clearly have a ton of passion and seem to be one hell of a hockey fan. The NHL really can't afford to lose fans like you.
They probably should have thought of that before yet another lockout.

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01-04-2013, 08:10 AM
  #132
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big market teams are never the losers. their competitive advantage will likely shrink (much like the last cba), but i can't find it within myself to feel sorry for them. especially after the weber poison pill. some big market teams & fans can't stomach a level playing field... not my problem. no, i do not feel big market fans are entitled to a better product because of population.

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01-04-2013, 10:03 AM
  #133
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I don't know if this has been posted already. I found it interesting because Bettman's being pulled in different directions by his owners.


Big market owners don't want the season lost, so they are pushing for him to make concessions. Owners in smaller markets, worry he's making too many concessions.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...5183--nhl.html
By Greg Wyshynski | Puck Daddy – 10 hours ago
I don’t think there’s any question that NHL ownership has some warring factions with regard to playing this season or scrubbing it.

One imagines big market teams like the New York Rangers, Philadelphia Flyers, Toronto Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens want to play. So might a team like the Minnesota Wild, which is paying significant bonus money to two prized free agents and not capitalizing on that momentum.

There’s pressure on Bettman to get a deal done, but there’s also pressure on him to get the right deal done.

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01-04-2013, 10:14 AM
  #134
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^^^^^

The "big" market teams want to play IMO, but the problem is that unless they just want to play with themselves in a 6-8 team league, the NHL has to try and make a deal that satisfies the common denominator which is the majority of the teams.

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01-05-2013, 08:40 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Sour Shoes View Post
big market teams are never the losers. their competitive advantage will likely shrink (much like the last cba), but i can't find it within myself to feel sorry for them. especially after the weber poison pill. some big market teams & fans can't stomach a level playing field... not my problem. no, i do not feel big market fans are entitled to a better product because of population.
As a Leaf fan it's a little frustrating as they aren't giving out any ridiculous retirement contracts yet help the smaller teams more than anyone.

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01-05-2013, 08:43 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sour Shoes View Post
big market teams are never the losers. their competitive advantage will likely shrink (much like the last cba), but i can't find it within myself to feel sorry for them. especially after the weber poison pill. some big market teams & fans can't stomach a level playing field... not my problem. no, i do not feel big market fans are entitled to a better product because of population.
They're entitled to a better product because they pay more.

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01-05-2013, 08:46 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I don't know if this has been posted already. I found it interesting because Bettman's being pulled in different directions by his owners.


Big market owners don't want the season lost, so they are pushing for him to make concessions. Owners in smaller markets, worry he's making too many concessions.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...5183--nhl.html
By Greg Wyshynski | Puck Daddy – 10 hours ago
I don’t think there’s any question that NHL ownership has some warring factions with regard to playing this season or scrubbing it.

One imagines big market teams like the New York Rangers, Philadelphia Flyers, Toronto Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens want to play. So might a team like the Minnesota Wild, which is paying significant bonus money to two prized free agents and not capitalizing on that momentum.

There’s pressure on Bettman to get a deal done, but there’s also pressure on him to get the right deal done.
Here's the issue, the same teams losing money 8 years ago are the same teams losing money today. They got their cap and revenue sharing, yet it didn't help.

It it healthy to keep catering to these teams that seem like they can never make a profit no matter what deal is signed?

It does seem like the broke teams are calling the shots more in the NHl which I find odd. That happens in no other sport.

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01-05-2013, 08:48 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
They're entitled to a better product because they pay more.
Quite frankly, so are fans that are paying more. Has anyone seen the ticket prices for some of these struggling franchises? It's so cheap to go to games. We get so ripped-off in big markets. I could pay for gas and drive across many states and still spend less to see games.

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01-05-2013, 09:02 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Quite frankly, so are fans that are paying more. Has anyone seen the ticket prices for some of these struggling franchises? It's so cheap to go to games. We get so ripped-off in big markets. I could pay for gas and drive across many states and still spend less to see games.
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/...urn=nhl,150188


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01-05-2013, 09:06 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Here's the issue, the same teams losing money 8 years ago are the same teams losing money today. They got their cap and revenue sharing, yet it didn't help.

It it healthy to keep catering to these teams that seem like they can never make a profit no matter what deal is signed?

It does seem like the broke teams are calling the shots more in the NHl which I find odd. That happens in no other sport.
Even a league with absolute central control, and a tiny salary cap (MLS) understands the inherent value in making money through the success of their large markets. They understand that "parity" is not the best route to success and growth.

It helps, but the fact remains that success in places like New York, LA or Chicago is simply more important to the league than success in Columbus, Salt Lake or San Jose.

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01-05-2013, 09:10 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Even a league with absolute central control, and a tiny salary cap (MLS) understands the inherent value in making money through the success of their large markets. They understand that "parity" is not the best route to success and growth.

It helps, but the fact remains that success in places like New York, LA or Chicago is simply more important to the league than success in Columbus, Salt Lake or San Jose.
I agree. And Bettman has a conflict of interest as he's the one who brought in some of these struggling franchises.

He's so proud of no teams moving. Why? The NFL and NBA (Two more successful leagues) seem to have no issue with it.

It's a very flawed economic theory he has going. There are teams that won't make money no matter what deal is signed. Meanwhile, the teams giving money to the poor ones aren't making any with no season.

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01-05-2013, 09:40 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
They're entitled to a better product because they pay more.
because of the supply/demand effect of a larger population... again, not my problem. there are small market fans that are dumb enough to support a league with haves & have nots (see - anyone who ever has paid a dime to watch a ball game at pnc park). i'm just saying i, and hopefully most others, wouldn't support such a league. for any toronto fans that hate the cap... are you jays fans?? did you enjoy the last 20 years sharing a division with the yankees and red sox? (toronto's current year spending spree notwithstanding)

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01-05-2013, 09:56 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Sour Shoes View Post
because of the supply/demand effect of a larger population... again, not my problem. there are small market fans that are dumb enough to support a league with haves & have nots (see - anyone who ever has paid a dime to watch a ball game at pnc park). i'm just saying i, and hopefully most others, wouldn't support such a league. for any toronto fans that hate the cap... are you jays fans?? did you enjoy the last 20 years sharing a division with the yankees and red sox? (toronto's current year spending spree notwithstanding)
I think no cap has helped the Blue Jays this year. They have a big advantage over the Leafs right now in spending.

And larger population has little to do with it. Phoenix has a huge/growing population.

I don't see any lack of parity in the NHL. Every team has an equal chance. I think people have issues with the cap coming down now more than the cap itself.

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01-05-2013, 10:05 AM
  #144
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because of the supply/demand effect of a larger population... again, not my problem. there are small market fans that are dumb enough to support a league with haves & have nots (see - anyone who ever has paid a dime to watch a ball game at pnc park). i'm just saying i, and hopefully most others, wouldn't support such a league. for any toronto fans that hate the cap... are you jays fans?? did you enjoy the last 20 years sharing a division with the yankees and red sox? (toronto's current year spending spree notwithstanding)
Also not our problem when teams like the Pens struggle and perhaps deserve to be moved or gotten rid of.

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01-05-2013, 10:12 AM
  #145
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Also not our problem when teams like the Pens struggle and perhaps deserve to be moved or gotten rid of.
Enjoy your 12 team league. The NHL is driven by gate revenues. People will not attend games if their team has no chance of winning, ever.

If this is what you want, that's fine. I doubt very much that the NHLPA will sign off on it.

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01-05-2013, 10:16 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Here's the issue, the same teams losing money 8 years ago are the same teams losing money today. They got their cap and revenue sharing, yet it didn't help.

Is it healthy to keep catering to these teams that seem like they can never make a profit no matter what deal is signed?

It does seem like the broke teams are calling the shots more in the NHl which I find odd. That happens in no other sport.
I disagree with your conclusion. It cannot plausibly be said that in a league with so little revenue sharing relative to its competitors, that the big teams are not calling a lot of the shots. What the NHL is missing is a collective will to devise a strategy that will grow the league and grow the game in a way that transcends the parochial selfishness of many of its stakeholders, including ownership, players, and fans alike. 60 years ago, gridiron football was only modestly popular in many markets and regions of the United States that today are considered to be among the game's strongholds. To achieve this, there was a vision that included a degree of parity, an extensive revenue sharing system, and an emphasis on the health of the NFL and of the game of football as a whole. In hockey you got this ******** of plopping teams in random markets and of homogenising the game's heritage, without a coherent strategy for making the pie bigger and making the game better. That's the reason the league is in the mess that it's in.

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01-05-2013, 10:19 AM
  #147
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Even a league with absolute central control, and a tiny salary cap (MLS) understands the inherent value in making money through the success of their large markets. They understand that "parity" is not the best route to success and growth.

It helps, but the fact remains that success in places like New York, LA or Chicago is simply more important to the league than success in Columbus, Salt Lake or San Jose.
It's not as simple as "New York or Columbus", "LA or Salt Lake", or "Chicago or San Jose".

MLB's structure is set up in such a manner that each new team that joins the massive spending spree comes at the expense of several teams, not just one. It's not "New York or Kansas City", it's more like "New York and all of Kansas City, Cleveland, Houston, Colorado, San Diego, Seattle, and Pittsburgh".

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01-05-2013, 10:23 AM
  #148
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Also not our problem when teams like the Pens struggle and perhaps deserve to be moved or gotten rid of.
it was clearly the fans fault that howard baldwin spent beyond his means and passed on a new arena deal. was minnesota's move to dallas due to bad fan support?

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01-05-2013, 10:24 AM
  #149
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Enjoy your 12 team league. The NHL is driven by gate revenues. People will not attend games if their team has no chance of winning, ever.

If this is what you want, that's fine. I doubt very much that the NHLPA will sign off on it.
I'm always amused when people say this. I'm perfectly fine with a 12 team league (would prefer at most 20). I'm also perfectly fine with hockey being no more than a regional sport. I enjoyed the league before there were 12 teams....I'll continue to enjoy it if there's less than 12 teams. Of course the PA won't support it. Again, not my problem.

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01-05-2013, 10:25 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Sour Shoes View Post
it was clearly the fans fault that howard baldwin spent beyond his means and passed on a new arena deal. was minnesota's move to dallas due to bad fan support?
Not my problem.

See how that works?

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