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NHL Lockout Discussion XLVI: There's nothing in the street-looks any different to me

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01-05-2013, 09:38 AM
  #51
CBJBrassard16
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Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA Mediation between NHL and NHLPA was slated to resume at 10:30 a.m. this morning

https://twitter.com/KatieStrangESPN/...83598373130240

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01-05-2013, 09:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA Mediation between NHL and NHLPA was slated to resume at 10:30 a.m. this morning

https://twitter.com/KatieStrangESPN/...83598373130240
Was?

We must be on union time again with Fehr stalling until 6.

Real pro.

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01-05-2013, 09:57 AM
  #53
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Fehr been late so often it's not funny anymore.

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01-05-2013, 09:58 AM
  #54
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The good news is that the mediator said last night of the NHL and the NHLPA that the current process deserved to continue

http://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDS/stat...88562130579456

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01-05-2013, 09:58 AM
  #55
Mike Jones
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Fehr been late so often it's not funny anymore.
Regardless of whether or not it's a tactic I still think it's ignorant and unprofessional.

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01-05-2013, 09:58 AM
  #56
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I'll wait for a report but who would honestly be shocked if Fehr were late again.

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01-05-2013, 10:02 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Why would you believe any information that is released by either side?

You do remember Gary and Daly lying about the Phoenix Coyotes ownership state for years, right?
All I have to do is see that there wasn't a cap in place for years. Players also had the biggest share in RR than any other sport and still do. I saw the TV deals, salaries, etc...I can see with my own eyes why we're in the mess that we are in. I don't need information released from either side.

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01-05-2013, 10:11 AM
  #58
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Beckenbaugh is obviously working his butt off to keep both sides engaged and get a resolution. We owe him a great deal of gratitude...even more so if it results in an agreement.

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01-05-2013, 10:13 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by OpAck View Post
Beckenbaugh is obviously working his butt off to keep both sides engaged and get a resolution. We owe him a great deal of gratitude...even more so if it results in an agreement.
i hate to be optimistic again, but i honestly believe he is actually just there to get the 2 sides to agree on the wordings and to do the final touches on a deal.

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01-05-2013, 10:18 AM
  #60
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Have any coaches taken a position on the lockout? Are they assumed to be on the owners' side or are they just innocent bystanders?

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01-05-2013, 10:18 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Regardless of whether or not it's a tactic I still think it's ignorant and unprofessional.
If its because the PA is working internally, I dont see an issue.

Of course it could eb something completely unrelated.

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01-05-2013, 10:18 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by OpAck View Post
Beckenbaugh is obviously working his butt off to keep both sides engaged and get a resolution. We owe him a great deal of gratitude...even more so if it results in an agreement.
It would be awesome if everyone stopped whining about how bad the PA and NHL sucked and just focused on how great this guy is. We don't know a damn thing about him except that he's spent the last two days being the sole line of communication here and pushing for them to end this.

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01-05-2013, 10:21 AM
  #63
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I don't see the remaining issues as particularly material. Both sides can easily move on the second-year cap (which is a non-issue, as the money paid has already been agreed upon). Pensions are confusing but a reasonable agreement can be sorted out; it's unreasonable for the NHLPA to expect the NHL to take on a lot of risk and sacrifice when, with the amount of money being given to the players, they can be doing their own financial planning. There is room for a consensus where the NHL helps facilitate, but not administer, retirement plans. Contract term lengths is an issue that is meaningful to both sides, but probably more to the NHL now that they have upped variance to 30 percent, which leaves plenty of room for cap circumvention. Despite that, the two sides are so close that they are essentially one concession away from agreeing there.

The fact that they have agreed on share of HRR and make whole is huge. At this point, we're just dotting i's and crossing t's. It's not worth playing chicken over these issues. Of course, one wants to convey an image of irrationality in negotiations, but when it comes to decision time, it would be insane to cancel the season, even if Gary is taking a tough stance because he is looking toward future negotiations.

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01-05-2013, 10:22 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by smithy View Post
I don't see the remaining issues as particularly material. Both sides can easily move on the second-year cap (which is a non-issue, as the money paid has already been agreed upon). Pensions are confusing but a reasonable agreement can be sorted out; it's unreasonable for the NHLPA to expect the NHL to take on a lot of risk and sacrifice when, with the amount of money being given to the players, they can be doing their own financial planning. There is room for a consensus where the NHL helps facilitate, but not administer, retirement plans. Contract term lengths is an issue that is meaningful to both sides, but probably more to the NHL now that they have upped variance to 30 percent, which leaves plenty of room for cap circumvention. Despite that, the two sides are so close that they are essentially one concession away from agreeing there.

The fact that they have agreed on share of HRR and make whole is huge. At this point, we're just dotting i's and crossing t's. It's not worth playing chicken over these issues. Of course, one wants to convey an image of irrationality in negotiations, but when it comes to decision time, it would be insane to cancel the season, even if Gary is taking a tough stance because he is looking toward future negotiations.
Theres nothing left that can prevent the season. This is teeth gnashing (mostly on the PA side) before they sign the deal.

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01-05-2013, 10:24 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Theres nothing left that can prevent the season. This is teeth gnashing (mostly on the PA side) before they sign the deal.
I agree - but since when has logic and reason ever stained these proceedings?

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01-05-2013, 10:25 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Fordy View Post
It would be awesome if everyone stopped whining about how bad the PA and NHL sucked and just focused on how great this guy is. We don't know a damn thing about him except that he's spent the last two days being the sole line of communication here and pushing for them to end this.
Mediation gets a bad rap in CBA talks (due to a bad record in that area) but it is actually incredibly effective. When a mediator serves as the sole line of communication between two sides, a good mediator can allow negotiations to proceed in the most optimal way - that is, with each side getting the biggest slice of pie on the remaining issues. I think the reason mediation hasn't worked earlier in this process, and in other CBA processes, is because the sides were not close enough for a mediator to be effective. This time, they are. (That's not to say that talks won't "fall apart" one more time in order for each side to maximize their leverage in a final push before the deadline.)

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01-05-2013, 10:25 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Theres nothing left that can prevent the season. This is teeth gnashing (mostly on the PA side) before they sign the deal.
You don't know that though. There are still several issues they have yet to agree on.

The mediator can definitley help but the process needs to speed up or we WILL lose the season.

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Old
01-05-2013, 10:27 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Theres nothing left that can prevent the season. This is teeth gnashing (mostly on the PA side) before they sign the deal.
Is that a challenge?

There's still plenty of time for this to go to hell.

Can't think rationally about these parties.

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01-05-2013, 10:30 AM
  #69
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I read somewhere that mediators like long days because it makes the parties less stubborn. If it's just short sessions, it's easier to dig in.

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01-05-2013, 10:32 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Hot Water Bottle View Post
Have any coaches taken a position on the lockout? Are they assumed to be on the owners' side or are they just innocent bystanders?
The only one that I can remember was Hitchcock, and he had an awesome quote which was pretty general and didn't point any fingers. Just something along the lines of how everyone involved with the NHL knows how lucky they are.

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01-05-2013, 10:35 AM
  #71
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I'm confused about variance. Is it year-over-year or is it that all years must fall within 30% of the highest year? The second interpretation makes the most sense.

The NHL should be willing to move on contract length if the PA accepts 30% variance falling under the second definition. This is a classic negotiation situation where we have a tradeoff between two types of things, and each side prefers one type of thing over the other - NHL favours lower variance over shorter contracts (variance being more important to avoid cap circumvention), and PA favours longer contracts over higher variance (longer contracts being more important to job security).

In an "optimal" setting, the PA would say: Put no term limits on contracts, and we'll give you 0% variance. Or, the NHL would say: Accept 0% variance, and we won't put any term limits in place. This would theoretically maximize the value that each side would get. For now, what this means is that it's easier for the NHL to move on term length than on variance (assuming it's not year-over-year variance, in which case 30% is way too much), and it's easier for the NHLPA to accept a low variance than a low term length. So, the NHLPA should accept the 30% variance (on NHL's terms) and the NHL should move toward the PA position on contract length.

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Old
01-05-2013, 10:36 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
I'll wait for a report but who would honestly be shocked if Fehr were late again.
It'd be pretty hard to be late at his own hotel since the mediator's going to meet him, but Don will find a way I'm sure

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01-05-2013, 10:37 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
And normal union members don't focus on their work when their unions negotiate a deal?

It's the 21st century - unions can negotiate and keep their members informed by using that new thingy called the interweb.
In most "normal" unions the union leadership is no longer performing the jobs of the membership. Their job IS to negotiate and deal with issues that arise.

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Old
01-05-2013, 10:39 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy View Post
I'm confused about variance. Is it year-over-year or is it that all years must fall within 30% of the highest year? The second interpretation makes the most sense.

The NHL should be willing to move on contract length if the PA accepts 30% variance falling under the second definition. This is a classic negotiation situation where we have a tradeoff between two types of things, and each side prefers one type of thing over the other - NHL favours lower variance over shorter contracts (variance being more important to avoid cap circumvention), and PA favours longer contracts over higher variance (longer contracts being more important to job security).

In an "optimal" setting, the PA would say: Put no term limits on contracts, and we'll give you 0% variance. Or, the NHL would say: Accept 0% variance, and we won't put any term limits in place. This would theoretically maximize the value that each side would get. For now, what this means is that it's easier for the NHL to move on term length than on variance (assuming it's not year-over-year variance, in which case 30% is way too much), and it's easier for the NHLPA to accept a low variance than a low term length. So, the NHLPA should accept the 30% variance (on NHL's terms) and the NHL should move toward the PA position on contract length.
I was under the impression it was overall, the difference between the high and low years, but it seems like it in-fact is year to year. Hence, why the league has also asked for no more than 60% difference between the first year and any other year.

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Old
01-05-2013, 10:48 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
The only one that I can remember was Hitchcock, and he had an awesome quote which was pretty general and didn't point any fingers. Just something along the lines of how everyone involved with the NHL knows how lucky they
http://mobile.mlive.com/advannarbor/...tguid=rS4YR496
Quote:
Red Wings' Mike Babcock on NHL lockout effect: 'We
could end up like bowling'
Ansar Khan | akhan1@mlive.com
12/20/2012 7:02 A

Bowling

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