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Are the big market teams the losers here?

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Old
01-05-2013, 10:35 AM
  #151
gordie
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
I'm always amused when people say this. I'm perfectly fine with a 12 team league (would prefer at most 20). I'm also perfectly fine with hockey being no more than a regional sport. I enjoyed the league before there were 12 teams....I'll continue to enjoy it if there's less than 12 teams. Of course the PA won't support it. Again, not my problem.
12 teams equal a minor league sport in North America and that won't happen no matter how desperate Leaf fans are for a real winner.

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01-05-2013, 10:38 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Not my problem.

See how that works?
is this where i say touche'? i'm already aware that big market fans don't give a **** about the smaller markets. which is why nobody should care if the big market teams are "the losers" during this lockout.

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01-05-2013, 10:38 AM
  #153
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because of the supply/demand effect of a larger population... again, not my problem. there are small market fans that are dumb enough to support a league with haves & have nots (see - anyone who ever has paid a dime to watch a ball game at pnc park). i'm just saying i, and hopefully most others, wouldn't support such a league. for any toronto fans that hate the cap... are you jays fans?? did you enjoy the last 20 years sharing a division with the yankees and red sox? (toronto's current year spending spree notwithstanding)
Pirates fans are so unbelievably salty.

News flash! The NL Central has been won by four different teams in the last five years.

If you think the economics of baseball is the reason they Pirates are so consistently terrible you are just looking for an excuse.

Also, PNC Park is a shrine. I don't care how bad the team is that place is always worth a visit.

And yes, I am a Jays fan, and I love sharing a division with the Yankees and Red Sox. And I can tell you unequivocally that the Blue Jays ownership has LOVED having them in the division. When those big spenders visit town, those are the Jays' (and every other team in baseball's) best gates of the season.

And you cant say "current year spending spree notwithstanding". The current spending spree is an example of exactly how a "small" (and I use that term loosely because the Jays' owners are super rich) market teams build through the draft, and gradually, but most importantly, financially responsibly, build themselves to a level where they are in a position to spend money.

Mandating limits and floors and percentages to be spent is horribly misguided and static response to economic and performance factors that are always changing.

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01-05-2013, 10:38 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Less than 12 teams equal a minor league sport and that won't happen no matter how desperate Leaf fans are for a real winner.
You'll probably note I said I'd prefer a 20 team league.

Out with the garbage.

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01-05-2013, 10:40 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Sour Shoes View Post
is this where i say touche'? i'm already aware that big market fans don't give a **** about the smaller markets. which is why nobody should care if the big market teams are "the losers" during this lockout.
Big market teams should and that's probably who you're hearing from.

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01-05-2013, 10:43 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Not my problem.

See how that works?
It will never happen.

See how that works?

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01-05-2013, 10:48 AM
  #157
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Pirates fans are so unbelievably salty.

News flash! The NL Central has been won by four different teams in the last five years.

If you think the economics of baseball is the reason they Pirates are so consistently terrible you are just looking for an excuse.

Also, PNC Park is a shrine. I don't care how bad the team is that place is always worth a visit.

And yes, I am a Jays fan, and I love sharing a division with the Yankees and Red Sox. And I can tell you unequivocally that the Blue Jays ownership has LOVED having them in the division. When those big spenders visit town, those are the Jays' (and every other team in baseball's) best gates of the season.

And you cant say "current year spending spree notwithstanding". The current spending spree is an example of exactly how a "small" (and I use that term loosely because the Jays' owners are super rich) market teams build through the draft, and gradually, but most importantly, financially responsibly, build themselves to a level where they are in a position to spend money.

Mandating limits and floors and percentages to be spent is horribly misguided and static response to economic and performance factors that are always changing.
You got a lot to look forward too this year then. Jays fans have suffered lately, but management has you guys in position to get maybe a 3rd WS title. Us White Sox fans just hope we finally make the playoffs again.

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01-05-2013, 10:56 AM
  #158
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You got a lot to look forward too this year then. Jays fans have suffered lately, but management has you guys in position to get maybe a 3rd WS title. Us White Sox fans just hope we finally make the playoffs again.
I am psyched. Anthopolous built through the draft and trades, and when the opportunity presented itself to compliment his young core with high priced, proven talent, he jumped on it.

Instead of dismantling his young core because of salary constraints, he is able to add to it and make a serious run at the playoffs.

Amazing the things you can do when you aren't burdened by a ridiculously over complicated talent cap. Even perennial losers, in a "non-traditional" market, competing with the biggest payrolls in sport, can turn it around through sound management and prudent negotiating

But no, a salary cap would be much more simple.

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01-05-2013, 10:57 AM
  #159
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What you fail to acknowledge is that the Bruins won the Cup playing against inferior teams.
<snip>
It is also worth noting that Detroit isn't a big market.
LOL!? Inferior teams? I'd take any one of the cup winners from the new CBA and match them up against Detroits cup roster in 02 or 97/98. And I wouldn't be betting on Detroit. Talk about sour grapes because your teams run of dominance is trending down.

Detroit by anyones mechanism is a big market team based on their ability/willingness to spend.

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01-05-2013, 11:01 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Not my problem.

See how that works?
Yes it is your problem. If you are not concerned about the overall health of the league and of the game, you are not a true fan. I'm not saying this to be stuck up, but I think it's incumbent on all of us who love the game to put the greater good ahead of the on ice product.

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01-05-2013, 11:01 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
They're entitled to a better product because they pay more.
Completely false. They're not entitled to anything. If they feel that the product isn't worth what they're paying, they shouldn't pay for it anymore.

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01-05-2013, 11:03 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Even a league with absolute central control, and a tiny salary cap (MLS) understands the inherent value in making money through the success of their large markets. They understand that "parity" is not the best route to success and growth.
The NFL says hi.

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01-05-2013, 11:04 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by PenguinPower420 View Post
Yes it is your problem. If you are not concerned about the overall health of the league and of the game, you are not a true fan. I'm not saying this to be stuck up, but I think it's incumbent on all of us who love the game to put the greater good ahead of the on ice product.
The NHL =/= hockey.

Hockey is doing just fine. It is perfectly healthy.

The NHL? Not my problem. It's only purpose is to make money for itself. If the NHL business is operating, great. I enjoy it. If the NHL business is not operating, it has no effect on my view of the game.

I don't know where people get this idea that the NHL is the embodiment of the game of hockey. Maybe because, and "i'm not saying this to be stuck up", but you're not really a hockey fan so much as you're an NHL fan.

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01-05-2013, 11:06 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
The NFL says hi.
So the NHL and MLS are now directly comparable to the NFL?

I can play this game too.

The Barclay's Premiership (the biggest pro sports league on the planet, which has almost no parity) says hi.

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01-05-2013, 11:11 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
It will never happen.

See how that works?
It already has happened, just not enough.

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01-05-2013, 11:15 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by PenguinPower420 View Post
Yes it is your problem. If you are not concerned about the overall health of the league and of the game, you are not a true fan. I'm not saying this to be stuck up, but I think it's incumbent on all of us who love the game to put the greater good ahead of the on ice product.
Ah, so because I disagree with the mechanism used to create the league structure, I am not a "true" fan of the game and am ignoring the "greater good"? Nice one! Heaven forbid people should have to earn their spot at the big boy table.

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01-05-2013, 11:27 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Ah, so because I disagree with the mechanism used to create the league structure, I am not a "true" fan of the game and am ignoring the "greater good"? Nice one! Heaven forbid people should have to earn their spot at the big boy table.
Markets vary in size, strength, and legacy. Not even Ken Holland and Mike babcock can wave a magic wand and make a team in an emerging market successful. Anybody behaving in the best interests for growing the league and the game deserves a seat at the table and a minimum return on their investment. That's how a league works.

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01-05-2013, 11:29 AM
  #168
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The NFL says hi.
The TV contract is why the NFl is so successful. And BTW, that tv contract assures almost any moron owner of making money.

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01-05-2013, 11:31 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by PenguinPower420 View Post
Yes it is your problem. If you are not concerned about the overall health of the league and of the game, you are not a true fan. I'm not saying this to be stuck up, but I think it's incumbent on all of us who love the game to put the greater good ahead of the on ice product.
But we're seeing attempts to do everything for these porr franchises, yet they're still not making money. What will make the league more healthy exactly? Because expansion to markets that don't care about hockey is not it.

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01-05-2013, 11:31 AM
  #170
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I am psyched. Anthopolous built through the draft and trades, and when the opportunity presented itself to compliment his young core with high priced, proven talent, he jumped on it.

Instead of dismantling his young core because of salary constraints, he is able to add to it and make a serious run at the playoffs.

Amazing the things you can do when you aren't burdened by a ridiculously over complicated talent cap. Even perennial losers, in a "non-traditional" market, competing with the biggest payrolls in sport, can turn it around through sound management and prudent negotiating

But no, a salary cap would be much more simple.
The same thing will happen as happened to Cleveland in the 1990s. Get a huge amount of young talent, perhaps contend for a short period of time, then be forced to trade everyone when the economic reality (of NY, Boston, and LA being able to outbid everyone) catches up. And if those players aren't traded, they'll just walk as free agents.

Haven't the last 15 years been fun for small-market MLB teams? "Competing" is limited to a couple of years and only if absolutely everything goes right. Misfire on a single trade (of an established player for prospects who don't develop) and it can cripple the franchise for years.

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01-05-2013, 11:38 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Completely false. They're not entitled to anything. If they feel that the product isn't worth what they're paying, they shouldn't pay for it anymore.
That's a dangerous game to play. Part of the reason for recent growth is the run of big market teams having success (Chicago, Boston, LA) The NHL needs big markets to carry it.

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01-05-2013, 11:38 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
The same thing will happen as happened to Cleveland in the 1990s. Get a huge amount of young talent, perhaps contend for a short period of time, then be forced to trade everyone when the economic reality (of NY, Boston, and LA being able to outbid everyone) catches up. And if those players aren't traded, they'll just walk as free agents.

Haven't the last 15 years been fun for small-market MLB teams? "Competing" is limited to a couple of years and only if absolutely everything goes right. Misfire on a single trade (of an established player for prospects who don't develop) and it can cripple the franchise for years.
The Jays are owned by baseball wealthiest ownership. I think people are forgetting this. And Cleveland went to 2 world series. I'll take that.

The Jays issues have been the division they're in. If they were in almost any others, they'd be a playoff contender yearly the last few years.

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01-05-2013, 11:39 AM
  #173
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The Jays issues have been the division they're in. If they were in almost any others, they'd be a playoff contender yearly the last few years.
I think this is thrown around way too much. The Jays have been a poorly run franchise for a long time, they're doing better because they started to draft and develop better.

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01-05-2013, 12:05 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
So the NHL and MLS are now directly comparable to the NFL?

I can play this game too.

The Barclay's Premiership (the biggest pro sports league on the planet, which has almost no parity) says hi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
The TV contract is why the NFl is so successful. And BTW, that tv contract assures almost any moron owner of making money.
The NFL has more parity than any league in North America. You point out the TV deal, yet overlook why they got it. One of the reasons is that parity.

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01-05-2013, 12:09 PM
  #175
eyeball11
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Originally Posted by PenguinPower420 View Post
Markets vary in size, strength, and legacy. Not even Ken Holland and Mike babcock can wave a magic wand and make a team in an emerging market successful. Anybody behaving in the best interests for growing the league and the game deserves a seat at the table and a minimum return on their investment. That's how a league works.
Actually some leagues require you to earn a spot.

No "anybody behaving in the best interests for growing the league and the game" does not "deserve a seat at the table". You prove you belong first before I give you a team at the big table.

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