HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Everything Canada (goaltending, coaching, future)

View Poll Results: ....
Yes 83 55.70%
No 41 27.52%
Maybe/Depends on the situation 25 16.78%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-05-2013, 11:23 AM
  #376
Souffle
A soupçon of nutmeg
 
Souffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Le Creuset
Country: France
Posts: 3,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
2006:

David Bolland
Dustin Boyd
Daniel Bertram
Michael Blunden
Kyle Chipchura
Andrew Cogliano
Blake Comeau
Steve Downie
Guillaume Latendresse
Ryan O'Marra
Benoit Pouliot
Tom Pyatt
Jonathan Toews

Other than Toews, I sure don't see a lot to get excited about there. And that team won gold. A lot depends on the goaltender and the coach.
To add to your point, my take is that these things go in cycles. I've watched a lot of tournaments. I remember teams with Rice as captain, Slaney scoring, and Morrow and Bouck running everyone in sight.

For a while Canada was determined to send the best "team" in the belief that Canadian hockey style, played perfectly, would prevail. So there was a tendency to favour players who could play in set roles, which meant taking polished grinders and checkers over more talented but also more raw players. It was not a prospects tournament.

That shifted a bit when there was a perception that Canada was stifling skill and falling behind other countries in the production of top players (and not winning). So there was more focus on skill even if it meant taking younger players or players playing out of their natural position in the apparent belief that talent and skill would carry with whatever adjustments or adaptations required over the course of a short tournament.

For Canada, there is irony in the US win. They put together the best team in the tournament. On a prospect by prospect basis, Canada was clearly the superior collection of talent and upside. But they just didn't have the glue (whether that's leadership, chemistry, coaching or some combination of all) that makes a group of talented players a winning team, which is something the US program had been faulted for in the past.

My prediction is that this crisis in Canadian hockey (gold medal droughts are national crises) will cause a shift back towards a more team-centred approach, where we will see more players with little or no realistic NHL upside get taken just because they are the best under 20 for the particular role that a 23 man team needs in a 6 or 7 game best-on-best tournament.

So in that roundabout way, I don't think there's much to say about how much worse Canada would have done this year without a lockout. They could have won gold with different players and I think that really is determined more by philosophy in putting together a team, and then coaching it to its potential.


Last edited by Souffle: 01-05-2013 at 11:30 AM.
Souffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:26 AM
  #377
crunchyblack*
juice monkey
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,448
vCash: 500
The US has like 32749234793274 times the population of Canada. Just by that fact alone, if the popularity of Hockey keeps increasing in the States, there will be no way anyone can keep up with the USA in 2030.

Edit: Cashville basically said the same thing above.

crunchyblack* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:28 AM
  #378
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,208
vCash: 13357
Amazing how so many people, myself included, thought Canada was stacked. Without RNH this team might not have even qualified for a medal appearance. Granted, there is an argument to be made relying on supposedly amazing talent alone was a poor idea to begin with.

Bourne Endeavor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:28 AM
  #379
syz
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
syz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,774
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchyblack View Post
The US has like 32749234793274 times the population of Canada. Just by that fact alone, if the popularity of Hockey keeps increasing in the States, there will be no way anyone can keep up with the USA in 2030.
Plus Canadian hockey players will keep having kids in the US.

syz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:31 AM
  #380
WJG
Running and Rioting
 
WJG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: Ireland
Posts: 12,745
vCash: 500
I think talent has never been the question with Canada.

IMO, Hockey Canada drinks their own kool-aid too often and it hurts the system over all. I love Team Canada as much as the next guy, but things like "The Reason" capes and even a full press conference to name the Men's Olympic team two years ago were over the top.

TSN doesn't help either (especially with the WJC) by overhyping the hell out of it. I doubt other countries like USA and Russia do those "Congrats you've been named to the team!" videos in the middle of the night like TSN. Not only does it put huge pressure on these kids, but it could also make them cocky and overconfident.

WJG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:37 AM
  #381
Zippy316
Registered User
 
Zippy316's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,983
vCash: 500
It's not that they won't have the best players, it's just that USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland, and the Czechs are able to put together rosters that can beat the Canadian teams. Doesn't necessarily mean they are better on paper, most of the times they aren't, but they are good enough to beat Canada. No longer are the other teams far inferior to the best teams of Canada and Russia.

Zippy316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:37 AM
  #382
Jabba11
Hockey Lobby
 
Jabba11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,456
vCash: 500
In 2030, Canada will have a player that will be a combination of Crosby/Gretzky/Lemieux/Messier/Richard/Beliveau/Orr/Roy/Bourque/Dionne/Bossy

Basically the ultimate hockey machine, and his name will be Pierre McGuire Jr.

Jabba11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:41 AM
  #383
JMcLeaf
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
JMcLeaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: ♫d(-_-)b♫
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 17,491
vCash: 500
Our roster would probably be something like this:

Drouin-Strome-Ritchie
Mackinnon-Scheifele-Rattie
Danault-Jenner-McNeill
Camara-Monahan-Wilson
Lipon

Rielly-Ouellet
Harrington-Murphy
Wotherspoon-Reinhart

Subban
Binnington

Definitely weaker, and there could still be a couple guys on it that may have made it to the NHL which would make them unavailable

JMcLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:46 AM
  #384
dmacgreg37
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,105
vCash: 500
They would've ended up around the same place. Probably would've list to Russia and USA in RR. although its hard to say how team would've gelled. They would've taken on the Czechs in QF and that team wasn't good. Canada would've been in self final versus Russia (who would've gotten the bye, had things gone the same way in every other game, a big assumption).

dmacgreg37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:54 AM
  #385
Nazem Gretzky
Eller 4 Selke
 
Nazem Gretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Francais-land
Country: France
Posts: 10,123
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Nazem Gretzky
It's true though, Murray was a huge loss.

Nazem Gretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 11:58 AM
  #386
UsernameWasTaken
Let's Go Blue Jays!
 
UsernameWasTaken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Amazing how so many people, myself included, thought Canada was stacked. Without RNH this team might not have even qualified for a medal appearance. Granted, there is an argument to be made relying on supposedly amazing talent alone was a poor idea to begin with.
yeah, me too. i knew from the beginning that our goal was questionable...but i thought we were going to run over the competition offensively and win by scoring a ton of goals.

maybe not

UsernameWasTaken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:02 PM
  #387
LEAFANFORLIFE23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,936
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretskidoo View Post
Finland is already ahead.
no, no they are not olympic results since 1998 prove that

LEAFANFORLIFE23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:04 PM
  #388
LEAFANFORLIFE23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,936
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabba11 View Post
In 2030, Canada will have a player that will be a combination of Crosby/Gretzky/Lemieux/Messier/Richard/Beliveau/Orr/Roy/Bourque/Dionne/Bossy

Basically the ultimate hockey machine, and his name will be Pierre McGuire Jr.
I know it's sarcasam but if that happened it'd be funny

LEAFANFORLIFE23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:07 PM
  #389
LEAFANFORLIFE23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,936
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WJG View Post
I think talent has never been the question with Canada.

IMO, Hockey Canada drinks their own kool-aid too often and it hurts the system over all. I love Team Canada as much as the next guy, but things like "The Reason" capes and even a full press conference to name the Men's Olympic team two years ago were over the top.

TSN doesn't help either (especially with the WJC) by overhyping the hell out of it. I doubt other countries like USA and Russia do those "Congrats you've been named to the team!" videos in the middle of the night like TSN. Not only does it put huge pressure on these kids, but it could also make them cocky and overconfident.
thats because other countries don't care as much

LEAFANFORLIFE23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:09 PM
  #390
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Mr Writer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
yeah, me too. i knew from the beginning that our goal was questionable...but i thought we were going to run over the competition offensively and win by scoring a ton of goals.

maybe not
I've never been really sold on Canada's 1993 born group of forwards. Other than RNH, I think they are average to below average players...
What I'm more surprised at is how wrongly I evaluated our D. The 1993 Canadian D were best in class, or so I thought. And one Dougie Hamilton was the leader of the group. Based on what I've seen of him in 2 World Juniors....Canada's 1993 D-corp was way way overhyped.

Mr Writer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:10 PM
  #391
Fire Lindy
Trust the System
 
Fire Lindy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,842
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchyblack View Post
The US has like 32749234793274 times the population of Canada. Just by that fact alone, if the popularity of Hockey keeps increasing in the States, there will be no way anyone can keep up with the USA in 2030.

Edit: Cashville basically said the same thing above.
I still can't see it becoming popular in states in the US that don't have hockey friendly climates, so that eliminates a huge chunk of our population. Right now, there is basically 10 or so states that produce all of our hockey players.


Last edited by Fire Lindy: 01-05-2013 at 12:15 PM.
Fire Lindy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:11 PM
  #392
HFX902
Registered User
 
HFX902's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,698
vCash: 500
Depending on world results if USA wins another 10 gold medals hockey will grow there.

oh.. wait you ment 2030, no maybe 2090

HFX902 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:14 PM
  #393
HFX902
Registered User
 
HFX902's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,698
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everlasting View Post
Well, last year Canada was the third best team and there was no lockout then so... 1 spot better?
we will beat you on your soil next year

HFX902 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:24 PM
  #394
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scythe View Post
But he needed to be. Therein lies the point I was making. When a team isn't playing well, they need their goalie to be lights out good to hold them in until the team gets it together. Average doesn't cut it in a game this big. You need to be great.

Binnington did what he could to do just that, but by then it was too late because it was already 4-0. Spott should have changed goalies after the third goal for this very reason, and to change the momentum before it was too late.
But to have watched the game you can clearly see the US was the hungrier team. Nugent Hopkins was pointless in the USA game but had 4 points in the bronze medal game today if you want to see just how frustrating this team could be when it mattered most. I think most of us can agree that no goalie stops those first two goals. That lets Subban off the hook there. The 3rd goal was a tough shot after Murphy got deked out of his jock. The 4th one I agree Subban should have saved. Normally I do blame the goaltending. Jake Allen, Mark Visentin and Scott Wedgewood all played terrible in our recent losing years in big games. Throw in Pascal Leclaire, Maxime Ouellet and even M-A Fleury. Subban just might very well be the goalie we can blame the LEAST out of that group. It doesn't mean he played great, but the percentage of blame you would give a guy like Visentin in 2011 would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 75%. Subban is closer to 30% or so in my books. He was far from the reason they lost and I really don't know how a goalie could have made that a 1-0 game for Canada.

If Canada loses the game 5-4 then Subban's performance is under the microscope more. But they didn't. Scoring goals at the precise time was a huge issue for this team.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:26 PM
  #395
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,133
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
I've never seen so many people, both in interviews and on these boards, go out of their way to remove blame from a player for such an average performance at the WJC.

IMO, Subban got too much praise for making a big save and not enough grief for letting in a "soft" goal.

This says nothing about his future to me though as I think he has a lot of developIng to do before he's an NHLer. I just found all of the Subban defenders a little weird...especially since the three medal teams have all had stellar goaltending throughout the tournament.
Maybe you should read the comments on twitter.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:26 PM
  #396
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,868
vCash: 500
My totally unfair assessment of how Canada should do things in the future:

1- F putting the flavor of the day junior coach in charge. These guys fail hard. Guys like Quinn and Sutter (who had pro experience) seem to do way better. The coaching continually blows.

2 - Quit picking the goalies a year or more before the tourney. To me it seems they have the camp just before the tourney, the two guys who are not supposed to make the team look good. The guys who are the favorites STINK. And of course they retain the guys they picked a year ago.

3 - Quit taking meat heads like Jenner who may be fine rough tough WHL players but are never anything put a liability in the international scene.


Canada has fallen so far in the goaltending dept it's pitiful. They've had the worst goalie preformances in the whole tourney the last few years. Hell Switz and Germany have better friggin goalies.

Beerfish is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:27 PM
  #397
ViD
Arty vs Nash 22:25
 
ViD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Blue Jackets Area
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 6,295
vCash: 520
Pretty sure the final outcome would have been the same. Canada probably wouldn't win the group, but would go through the quarterfinal and then lose the rest of the games.

ViD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:27 PM
  #398
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,868
vCash: 500
Canada quit simply has had the worst goaltending in the whole tourney about the last 4 years.

Beerfish is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:27 PM
  #399
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,133
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
A team with as much talent (look at some of the arrogance from before the tournament) as Canada shouldn't have to rely on perfect goaltending. Subban wasn't great and shouldn't be immune to criticism, but he was better than Visentin was previously.

Except for Gibson, any of the goalies of this tournament would have looked average behind such a mediocre Canadian team.
Bingo!

hockeyfan2k11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2013, 12:29 PM
  #400
sharks9
Registered User
 
sharks9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,189
vCash: 500
People saying we would've gone to relegation round are ridiculous!

We would've done similar to how we did this year, maybe even better, you never know. Sure we wouldn't have RNH but guys like MacKinnon would've gotten a lot more ice time and could've filled some of that void, not to mention that we don't know if there was someone that got cut who would've had a breakout performance.

Everyone needs to stop freaking out because things didn't go our way this year.

sharks9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:20 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.