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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Cherry: CHL should stop letting Americans and Europeans to play in CHL (merged)

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Old
01-05-2013, 11:58 AM
  #226
Fire Lindy
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Couldn't you have just posted your thoughts in the Cherry thread? I'm sure he was your reasoning for posting this..

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01-05-2013, 12:00 PM
  #227
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This would hurt hockey everywhere. The best players playing the best players is the only answer regardless of their nationality.

It does not matter where the teams are located.

Don't be so bitter about your country choking.

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01-05-2013, 12:01 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
So how is it that CHL coaches managed to give non-Canadians all the heart and native Canadians none?

This is funny for so many reasons.

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01-05-2013, 12:02 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
I said in the context of the argument, as in it wouldn't really hurt the development of Canadian players if they weren't allowed in the NCAA, because they would still have the CHL. Wasn't referring to the education side of it at all.
okay, so both countries lockdown their borders. this doesn't hurt their development... how, exactly?

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01-05-2013, 12:03 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by YARR123 View Post
Not only would it be bad for the development of hockey for every side involved, but bad for hockey in general.
No. It would be fantastic for at least Russia's, Slovakia's and Czech Republic's hockey programs and for the (stupid) players who will not be ruined by the CHL.

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01-05-2013, 12:04 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I don't disagree. However I don't think it's about nationality so much as they don't want 20 year old players coming in as freshman. The rules are different for hockey compared to every other sport. There is a reason.
We're already seeing it though. A lot of guys that play on both sides of the border in junior A leagues do so until they're 19 or 20 before moving on to the NCAA ranks. The average age for a freshman player is already somewhere between 19 and 20 IIRC. It's why UFAs out of the NCAA are a big deal, since typically guys like Jeremy Welsh, Tyler Bozak, and even Adam Oates back in the day were 22-23 when they really started to get NHL attention to the point where they would be offered a contract.

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01-05-2013, 12:04 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
The NCAA will happily take our guys back, and we'll do just fine, thanks.
Yeah pretty much every player on team USA today was at least committed to a school at one point. They were heavily pursued by the CHL.

Also these things go in cycles and this is a knee jerk reaction to me. But really when this whole movement took off was some 15 years ago when Canada was in a bad funk at this tournament. Have any of them ever thought that having the Hossa's and those types start to come over is what got them back to being very good in the first place. I am guessing not, but it helps the Canadian players in the long run too.

There is a flip side to every argument, the problem with buying in and following a Don Cherry argument is he has never looked at the other side of the coin when he makes his delusional statements.

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01-05-2013, 12:09 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
We're already seeing it though. A lot of guys that play on both sides of the border in junior A leagues do so until they're 19 or 20 before moving on to the NCAA ranks. The average age for a freshman player is already somewhere between 19 and 20 IIRC. It's why UFAs out of the NCAA are a big deal, since typically guys like Jeremy Welsh, Tyler Bozak, and even Adam Oates back in the day were 22-23 when they really started to get NHL attention to the point where they would be offered a contract.
But the CHL has what? 60 teams? Most of the best players still go the CHL route so you're looking at around the top 300 hockey players in Canada. For obvious reasons there are not as many elite players in Junior A who are going to overtake the NCAA as a 21 year old freshman league.

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01-05-2013, 12:10 PM
  #234
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okay, so both countries lockdown their borders. this doesn't hurt their development... how, exactly?
Of course there would be a difference in play quality, but you can't even measure it. Not sure what the issue is. The CHL would still go on, as would the NCAA.

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01-05-2013, 12:11 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Flamesrule View Post
I see you've been listening to Don Cherry.
to a point he is right

there is one problem

How many US teams are in the WHL?

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01-05-2013, 12:11 PM
  #236
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Aside from the sour grapes, it's just completely irrational. The NHL equivalent of the CHL would be only allowing Americans and Canadians in, which is a horrible solution.

The CHL is not a development program for Canada. It's a junior league that makes a profit of their product. It's irrelevant who plays for which teams. Ultimately it would hurt Hockey Canada's system considering the rest of the world has caught up. There's nothing to argue or whine about, hockey is not just Canada's sport.


And the NCAA allows as many of their Canadian counterparts in, many of who are taking away scholarships from possible American talent and may or may not be qualified as well to attend such a school, and it's fine with me. And the educational standard argument isn't a slight, I'm just making a point about the relevancy.

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01-05-2013, 12:12 PM
  #237
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Not that the CHL would ever consider this but imagine it doesn't have the desired outcome. The teams still keep getting better, the years of gains made by the various other hockey powers really are real and not just the one or two year finishing school step that hockey Canada so desperately wants to take credit for. Well now the genie is out of the bottle, you have made a complete *** out of yourselves and your team isn't getting better and our teams aren't getting worse.

The USHL has opened up its doors to everyone seeing this opportunity. Nothing changes maybe you even get worse and how do you fix it? Well you need the league to be more competitive... But no answers are available. So you have weakened the CHL talent wise damaging the product and the bottom line of many clubs and completely wounded your pride in the process. That would be a total disaster.

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01-05-2013, 12:13 PM
  #238
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Cherry is an imbecile, which I think 95% of people here can agree with.

The point is, as a fan of the NCAA i'd have no problem seeing all top American players here. There is some mad delusion that the only reason other countries have done well in the WJC recently is because of their participation in the CHL. Its a foolish and egotistical notion.

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01-05-2013, 12:16 PM
  #239
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Everyone is missing the point of Cherry's rant.

Cherry isn't really whining about Americans/Europeans taking spots of Canadian players, who would be the marginal players anyway. He is upset that foreign players presumably develop better in the CHL, and then turn around and use the improved development to defeat Canada in international play. He would like the rest of the world to to stay "barefoot and pregnant" hockey wise so that Canada can always win. It would be like barring foreign engineering students from US universities so that they can't go back home and develop industries that would compete with the US economically.

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01-05-2013, 12:18 PM
  #240
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If you took away the CHL, those players would all filter back into the NCAA. It would take probably two decades plus, but if you look at where college football and basketball are, it's not outside the realm of reason to assume that NCAA hockey could become a third leg to that with top talent coming through the system. If NCAA hockey got even half the visibility of college basketball, I think you might see Canadians trying to get south to play in the US at some point.

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01-05-2013, 12:19 PM
  #241
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Still waiting for a response to the question about all the US teams?

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01-05-2013, 12:23 PM
  #242
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By the way guessing the CHL will still want protection from the NHL on these kids, hard to see how they get it after the uproar this would cause but lets pretend they get it. They allow for guys like Tomas Tatar to play in the AHL at 18, won't be long before the first USA kid uses this. See JT Miller playing in the AHL and leaving the CHL.

Some of the truly elite American talent would be skipping the NCAA, right after their draft year and turning pro and playing into the direct NHL feeder league. Canadian kids that cannot make the NHL will be stuck in a lesser league. This might actually be the greatest thing that ever happened to American hockey, go directly from the NTDP to your NHL farm team. You would wind up with 5 or 6 guys a year that take this route probably, a little less sometimes but not very far off the CHL numbers. So in some ways you could be forcing them into a better development situation. Like I said there are downsides and a lot of different angles and outcomes to how this breaks when it happens. Not all of them as perfect as they are in the pro CHL, Canada is the gift to hockey Don Cherry think-tank ideas.

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01-05-2013, 12:24 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
Everyone is missing the point of Cherry's rant.

Cherry isn't really whining about Americans/Europeans taking spots of Canadian players, who would be the marginal players anyway. He is upset that foreign players presumably develop better in the CHL, and then turn around and use the improved development to defeat Canada in international play. He would like the rest of the world to to stay "barefoot and pregnant" hockey wise so that Canada can always win. It would be like barring foreign engineering students from US universities so that they can't go back home and develop industries that would compete with the US economically.
I think he's still wrong. Other than countries like Germany or Denmark, these players don't need a year in the chl to become elite. Russia won gold in 2011 with a what one or two? I don't think Sweden had many last year. All the US guys except Galchenyuk were developed in the US except for maybe a season or less in the chl.

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01-05-2013, 12:24 PM
  #244
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If you took away the CHL, those players would all filter back into the NCAA. It would take probably two decades plus, but if you look at where college football and basketball are, it's not outside the realm of reason to assume that NCAA hockey could become a third leg to that with top talent coming through the system. If NCAA hockey got even half the visibility of college basketball, I think you might see Canadians trying to get south to play in the US at some point.
That's exactly it though. NCAA hockey will never get 1/10 the exposure of bball and football. They make schools and broadcasters loads of money. NCAA hockey doesn't. Just like nfl, nba destroy NHL. It won't happen.

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01-05-2013, 12:25 PM
  #245
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Considering a lot of players from USA, Russia, Sweden etc... play in the CHL and then end up being better than Canada is horrible. CHL should stop letting all the foreigners come and play here in Canada. It is called the Canadian Hockey League for a reason? It should just be for Canadians. They are developing opponent players which is crazy and then they take our strategies and beat us..

I got nothing against Americans and Europeans. It is just my opinion that Swedes should play in the SEL, Russians in KHL, Finnish in SM-Liga, Americans in NCAA or USHL and Canadians in CHL.

Swedes would get coached and trained by Swedish personnel and Russians and all the countries would get coached and trained by people from their country.
Last 5 canadian Gold 4WHL Goalies, 1 OHL Goalie. Maybe if we banned QMJHL & OHL goalies from team canada. Cause Visiten, Subban represented us so well>

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01-05-2013, 12:32 PM
  #246
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That's exactly it though. NCAA hockey will never get 1/10 the exposure of bball and football. They make schools and broadcasters loads of money. NCAA hockey doesn't. Just like nfl, nba destroy NHL. It won't happen.
You think that now, but conference tv stations are interesting. The B1G already decided they want a hockey conference after years of not caring. Why, well they want that content on their network and a ruling like this would allow them to tell the other schools what an opportunity is out there start your hockey programs, we have all the American prospects and Canadian ones that still want to not go the CHL route. They all for the most part are in our backyards already in the midwest. They show a lot of hockey there and college hockey even has NBC sports on board. They are getting exposure within the last 5 years tv wise they have never had. It isn't just ESPN and the frozen four anymore down here.

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01-05-2013, 12:34 PM
  #247
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I have several American friends!

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01-05-2013, 12:36 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by limite View Post
Everyone is missing the point of Cherry's rant.

Cherry isn't really whining about Americans/Europeans taking spots of Canadian players, who would be the marginal players anyway. He is upset that foreign players presumably develop better in the CHL, and then turn around and use the improved development to defeat Canada in international play. He would like the rest of the world to to stay "barefoot and pregnant" hockey wise so that Canada can always win. It would be like barring foreign engineering students from US universities so that they can't go back home and develop industries that would compete with the US economically.
The US deals with players in the NBA and MLB who go back home and do well in the Olympics/International play. Do we complain? Not in the least.

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01-05-2013, 12:36 PM
  #249
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You think that now, but conference tv stations are interesting. The B1G already decided they want a hockey conference after years of not caring. Why, well they want that content on their network and a ruling like this would allow them to tell the other schools what an opportunity is out there start your hockey programs, we have all the American prospects and Canadian ones that still want to not go the CHL route. They all for the most part are in our backyards already in the midwest. They show a lot of hockey there and college hockey even has NBC sports on board. They are getting exposure within the last 5 years tv wise they have never had. It isn't just ESPN and the frozen four anymore down here.

I get that. I've lived in the states on and off for parts of the last 10 years. It'll still never come close to football or basketball revenue. Those are the sports that pay for all the money the other sports lose. I was just point out that the other guy saying "if hockey could get 1/2 of basketballs exposure" they'd be fine. They won't. The tournament makes more money in one season for CBS than hockey makes for everyone in a decade combined.

That being said, college hockey will continue to grow. It just has a fairly low ceiling when compared with other 2 major sports in NCAA.

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01-05-2013, 12:40 PM
  #250
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If the CHL were to limit anything, I'd prefer it's the number of games. The O and Q play 68 while the W plays 72. No other junior league in the world plays as many games. I'd be in favour of a maximum 60 game schedule. Unfortunately it will never happen in the CHL as profit comes before development.


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