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Mark Scheifele for Phil Kessel

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Old
01-03-2013, 01:38 PM
  #351
81Leafs50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heista18 View Post
Mark Scheifele
2nd round draft pick 2013
1st round draft pick 2014

-For-

Phil Kessel
NO WAY!

Kessel can score with the best in the NHL. He is an ELITE sniper.

Scheifele has proven nothing.

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Old
01-03-2013, 01:40 PM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 81Leafs50 View Post
NO WAY!

Kessel can score with the best in the NHL. He is an ELITE sniper.

Scheifele has proven nothing.
Is 1 year of Kess worth more than 7 years of Scheif?

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01-03-2013, 03:18 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by bobbyflex View Post
makes no sense. Leafs are in win-now mode. Burke's job is on the line. He's not trading away his only 1st-liner for futures, as good as a prospect Scheifele is
They could not be farther from win now mode. They are in crisis rebuild mode

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01-03-2013, 04:57 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I don't think Sheva's comments were out of line in that he called Scheifele a #1 centre prospect, which is equivalent to saying he has the potential to be great...but it is far from certain.
His other comments are valid, in that successful #1 centres are exceedingly rare, usually drafted and essential for success.
IMO, Kessel has more innate physical skill than Scheifele, but Scheif has high hockey IQ, leadership and other intangibles that could potentially make a difference.
Upside:J Toews .....Downside:bust ...We'll see in a few years.
Some guys just don't get it dude lol

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Old
01-04-2013, 02:33 AM
  #355
Bryanbryoil
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Why in the world would Toronto make this trade unless it was clear to them that Kessel wanted out?

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Old
01-04-2013, 02:42 AM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Why in the world would Toronto make this trade unless it was clear to them that Kessel wanted out?
Even then we shouldn't. Schiefele is meh.

28 other teams can up this offer

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01-04-2013, 11:47 PM
  #357
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I just wanted to note that while listening to Keilback call Jets games on the radio I thought Peter Tagli and Eddie was the best line on the ice. They always seemed to be a very cohesive unit... Although sometimes Peter would slack and Tagli and Eddie would have to go it alone. That is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Tagli Eddie View Post
Is 1 year of Kess worth more than 7 years of Scheif?

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:02 AM
  #358
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Kessel is proven top-end sniper and Toronto is currently not in a rebuild (contrary to what some people think they are/should be)...
Toronto only does this if they know he isn't coming back to them

Kessel is only signed until the end of the season and Winnipeg is trying to complete a rebuild but not looking to contend for 2-3 seasons...
Winnipeg only does this if they're told by Kessel that he will extend for a reasonable price


Doesn't fit the needs or place in build for either team.
Maybe Jets would say ok and then trade him for better assets, but if someone was willing to pay higher than Winnipeg, they'd pay that higher price to Toronto too.

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:06 AM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Even then we shouldn't. Schiefele is meh.

28 other teams can up this offer
soo true

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Old
01-05-2013, 01:43 PM
  #360
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The only deal I would consider is

Scheifele + Kane

for

Kessel + 2nd

and that's if Kessel signed short term or wanted out (providing he agrees to resign long-term for 6-7 years with Winnipeg ofc).

If we're to trade Kessel, we need his replacement and the closest thing the Jets have is Kane, but he's not enough by himself.

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Old
01-05-2013, 01:58 PM
  #361
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Hoo boy I don't even know where to start with that offer. Kane had 30 goals and 57 pts as a 20 year old. Kessel had 19 and 37.

In their first three years in the league - even though Kessel was a year older - they had the exact same amount of points(126). Kane also did it in 9 less games.

So if we were to talk about Kessel vs. Kane, clearly there is far more value in Kane. The trade would be:

Phil Kessel +

for

Evander Kane

Anything else is delusion coming from the center of the universe.

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:05 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
Hoo boy I don't even know where to start with that offer. Kane had 30 goals and 57 pts as a 20 year old. Kessel had 19 and 37.

In their first three years in the league - even though Kessel was a year older - they had the exact same amount of points(126). Kane also did it in 9 less games.

So if we were to talk about Kessel vs. Kane, clearly there is far more value in Kane. The trade would be:

Phil Kessel +

for

Evander Kane

Anything else is delusion coming from the center of the universe.
Their careers in the first couple of years was essentially equal. Except now, Phil HAS taken the next step in elevating his game. Kane has the potential to do it - but potential is not even close to the value of having actually done it. Phil Kessel is currently has more value because he has elevated his game again. If Kane can match and hit PPG then he'll hold more value given his style. But right now, Phil Kessel holds more value.

Accomplishment > Potential. And Phil Kessel is far more accomplished from an individual production perspective than Kane. You are delusional if you think otherwise.

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:09 PM
  #363
Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
Their careers in the first couple of years was essentially equal. Except now, Phil HAS taken the next step in elevating his game. Kane has the potential to do it - but potential is not even close to the value of having actually done it. Phil Kessel is currently has more value because he has elevated his game again. If Kane can match and hit PPG then he'll hold more value given his style. But right now, Phil Kessel holds more value.

Accomplishment > Potential. And Phil Kessel is far more accomplished from an individual production perspective than Kane. You are delusional if you think otherwise.
Does contract status not factor in?

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:42 PM
  #364
7even
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Does contract status not factor in?
It would if you got to the point where people like the deal enough to consider it holistically. Right now I think people are just discussing the merits of each player.

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:55 PM
  #365
Phion Keneuf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
Hoo boy I don't even know where to start with that offer. Kane had 30 goals and 57 pts as a 20 year old. Kessel had 19 and 37.

In their first three years in the league - even though Kessel was a year older - they had the exact same amount of points(126). Kane also did it in 9 less games.

So if we were to talk about Kessel vs. Kane, clearly there is far more value in Kane. The trade would be:

Phil Kessel +

for

Evander Kane

Anything else is delusion coming from the center of the universe.
Oh boy

Anything else is delusional? Did you just see what you posted?

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Old
01-05-2013, 03:01 PM
  #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
Hoo boy I don't even know where to start with that offer. Kane had 30 goals and 57 pts as a 20 year old. Kessel had 19 and 37.

In their first three years in the league - even though Kessel was a year older - they had the exact same amount of points(126). Kane also did it in 9 less games.

So if we were to talk about Kessel vs. Kane, clearly there is far more value in Kane. The trade would be:

Phil Kessel +

for

Evander Kane

Anything else is delusion coming from the center of the universe.
If I were to attempt to explain the HF mindset to someone who has never been here, this would be exhibit A in my presentation.

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Old
01-05-2013, 03:03 PM
  #367
allan5oh
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Contract status always factors in. I just don't see the point of continuing this discussion, Kessel is valuable as a rental player. He scored at a PPG pace last year, and has 1.5 years left on his $5.4m cap hit contract. It also has a NTC/NMC. 82 pts at 5.4m is valuable certainly.

Kane has 5.5 years left on his 5.25m cap hit contract. His contract has decent value considering his potential, and has no NTC/NMC.

The value here is the length vs. potential.

Kessel would be most valuable traded as a rental to a team running for the cup next year. Think about it, the cap could be $60m depending on CBA negotiations. At that point his contract would be extremely valuable on a cost per point basis, depending on his production over the next calender year.

The value here is points per dollar, especially for a team close to the cap making a cup run. But he probably wouldn't be able to re-sign with the same team.

His contract has less value to a team like the Jets, and much more value to a team like Vancouver, San Jose, Calgary, etc..

The Jets would probably be one of the last if not the last team to make a trade like that.

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Old
01-05-2013, 03:04 PM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Does contract status not factor in?
Almost every Jet fan has tried to make that point, but it gets ignored repeatedly.

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Old
01-05-2013, 03:04 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
Hoo boy I don't even know where to start with that offer. Kane had 30 goals and 57 pts as a 20 year old. Kessel had 19 and 37.

In their first three years in the league - even though Kessel was a year older - they had the exact same amount of points(126). Kane also did it in 9 less games.

So if we were to talk about Kessel vs. Kane, clearly there is far more value in Kane. The trade would be:

Phil Kessel +

for

Evander Kane

Anything else is delusion coming from the center of the universe.
Kessel has so much more value than Kane AINEFC

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Old
01-05-2013, 03:06 PM
  #370
Phion Keneuf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
Contract status always factors in. I just don't see the point of continuing this discussion, Kessel is valuable as a rental player. He scored at a PPG pace last year, and has 1.5 years left on his $5.4m cap hit contract. It also has a NTC/NMC. 82 pts at 5.4m is valuable certainly.

Kane has 5.5 years left on his 5.25m cap hit contract. His contract has decent value considering his potential, and has no NTC/NMC.

The value here is the length vs. potential.

Kessel would be most valuable traded as a rental to a team running for the cup next year. Think about it, the cap could be $60m depending on CBA negotiations. At that point his contract would be extremely valuable on a cost per point basis, depending on his production over the next calender year.

The value here is points per dollar, especially for a team close to the cap making a cup run. But he probably wouldn't be able to re-sign with the same team.

His contract has less value to a team like the Jets, and much more value to a team like Vancouver, San Jose, Calgary, etc..

The Jets would probably be one of the last if not the last team to make a trade like that.
Nope, try again.

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Old
01-05-2013, 03:42 PM
  #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capitalsrock View Post
Kessel has so much more value than Kane AINEFC
If you compare one good year, then yes. If you look at the whole package - and this is the important part - look at how that package fits their respective teams, it's pretty clear Kessel and Kane should stay where they are.

That's why teams make trades, they both view the trade as bringing value to the team. Draft picks, contract lengths, contract amounts, contract status, point production, special teams play, roles, etc.. all factor into this. Each team has different needs for all of the above.

If either team sees less value in what they're getting vs. what they're giving up, they don't make the trade. That's what we're seeing here.

Clearly Kessel is more valuable than Kane, and far far more valuable than Scheifele. Quite honestly none of the proposals I've seen including Scheifele (but excluding Kane) have come close to the value of Kessel, either as a player or as a whole. Funny thing is all of those proposals have come from Toronto fans. Notice how not a single Winnipeg fan has countered? It's because we don't see the value to our team. But he is extremely valuable as I pointed out above, to a team that is near the cap making a cup run next year. Even if we are contenders next year, I don't see Winnipeg management pulling the trigger. They have a very long term view on things.

Quite frankly Toronto and Winnipeg are not good trade partners. We both need the same things, and the assets we have are more valuable to our respective teams more than the other team.

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Old
01-06-2013, 12:16 AM
  #372
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Kessel is a better scorer than anyone on the jets can dream to be, his value is not that low.

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