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Luongo: The Neverending Story

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:26 PM
  #176
Cogburn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I agree that the Leafs' defense looks solid for the future (its the one area of the team I'm confident is well on its way to being rebuilt), but for the present its questionable. By my assessment it lacks experience and it has too much puck moving and not enough actual defense, but that will come with time. The defense is on the late rebuild stage.

The forward group is in a state of flux and I'm not sure where it will end up. As you mentioned, a young top end playmaking center and all of a sudden things look a lot better (which is why Leaf fans are desperately hoping for a top pick this summer) but at the moment its shaky and without a whole lot in the pipeline to reinforce it, its a major question mark. This is precisely why moving Lupul is an issue.

Now if by some ridiculous miracle Burke manages to sign Perry or something comparable, then Luongo starts making more sense and Lupul for Luongo becomes a lot more viable and makes a lot more sense. If we smoke a little more on that pipe and say a top winger AND a top six center, then heck yes to Luongo. At that point the Leafs would be ready to make a splash.

But right now, it would just seem out of place. I'm not against a Luongo trade and he'd arguably be our best player, but I am against trading what you have proposed for him. It would be like punching a bigger hole into a leaking side of a boat to repair the other side.

Man I really have to shorten these responses. I started out with good intentions...really I did.
No...you...reply...good.

Ok, scrap the caveman talk, I hear you loud and clear Dan, but I maintain hoping for a top pick or hoping for a free agent jackpot isn't a good way to improve a team, and where as those improvements are "maybes" in acquiring, not whether or not they pan out, Luongo is available, and is a huge upgrade.

Your analogy about the hole in the boat not withstanding, as I do find it apt, I'd have to counter with in flux or not, Toronto has some talented wingers in place already, and Lupul isn't even top of the pile with Kessel and JVR now in the mix. A top six center and a top six winger, both being acquired in free agency, and both being high enough talents to improve what the Leafs have...yeah, then we can talk, but we'd be asking more then Lupul at that point

Again, from an outside perspective, I think wingers and defenders are still the Leafs strength, but for everything to pan out, I'd like to see how everyone plays in a Carlyle system before saying "oh yeah, you guys are good, don't worry about it, give use X, Y and Z and you'll be fine".

Strong goaltending and defensive minded forwards and defenders will make Carlyle come across a knight on a white horse, and make some of the guys on the current roster seem much, much better in their own end, and we just want to help by giving you a goalie Carlyle can make full use of. I swear, that's our only motivation

EDIT: Again, I should be clear, I don't advocate Luongo to Toronto because I think our teams are ill suited as trading partners. I am, however, saying that Toronto would help more then nearly anyone currently on the Toronto's roster if the goal is short term success, ie Playoffs, in the next few years.


Last edited by Cogburn: 01-05-2013 at 02:32 PM.
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01-05-2013, 02:30 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post


Toronto is extremely close to Florida compared to Edmonton or Columbus. I never said it was a superior team so I would appreciate some of you cutting back on the personal attacks. If you guys want to ignore that Luongo has control over where he goes and location is a big part of that, then fine keep the blinders on.

And Luongo isn't getting waived, .
I don't think I made any personal attacks, but noted.

Toronto is still a 4 hour flight from Florida, it's not "extremely close". It's closer, but Columbus, as in Ohio, isn't significantly further either. I gave you Edmonton as being further, but it's also closer to Florida then Vancouver.

And I never claimed Luongo didn't have control, at least to some arguable degree, over his destination, but that he would just as easily cut Toronto as Columbus or Edmonton...none are perfect destinations, I can't see him thinking of Toronto as that much better a destination compared to another of other rumoured parties.

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01-05-2013, 02:40 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
I understand fully your concerns, and am no way trying to force you to bow to my demands, but something that has been asked before and never fully answered springs to mind.

While Luongo may not fit perfectly to the leafs plan, is there ever going to be a goalie that does? Who do you think may become available that does? I am not asking for the standard Backstrom Thomas, Smith answer, I am asking for realistic options that fit the ideal situation for you.

I bring this up only cause some have pointed out, when does this player actually become available. I mean any goalie drafted now is probably at least 3 years away, most likely at least 5, which would still make Luongo a perfect option for the interim.

I understand if the price becomes to high, or even if it is not the right time, but leaf fans also need to ask themselves when are we going to get a chance for a guy to carry the mail for 5 years.
While true that we don't have stability in goaltending, it still has to make sense. I'm not the world's biggest Luongo fan by any stretch of the imagination but I would like to have a goalie of his calibre back there.

The problem is that it has to make sense and asking price and team fit make that an issue.

Right now, our guy is Reimer. He had a great year and a shaky injury plagued year, so honestly the Leafs don't really know what they have in him but he's a young goalie with potential. Burke has said he has confidence Reimer will be the guy going forward. If Reimer fails, drafting or trade for a young goalie like a Bernier or Schneider type becomes plan B. In the interim, we could use a veteran 1B type to help "carry the mail" as you put it. This is why a guy like Thomas or Backstrom or Smith (probably never leave Phoenix to be honest) might be a better fit than Luongo.

Essentially, if Reimer or any of our other goaltending prospects with promise can not carry the load we will need to make a trade like Vancouver did for Luongo originally. Until then, Reimer needs experienced help and I'm not sure that Luongo who is still at the top of his game and has a long term contract is ideal unless Burke somehow turns the ship around quickly and gives us immediately competitive forward and defense groups in which case Luongo would fit perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The scenario is different, but the effects of the changing environment are not unprecedented. In fact, the compliance in the past lockout was worse IMO. There also hasn't been enough time (1.5 years since there was a 60m cap in 2011) for teams to get out of line with their payrolls. So while I can appreciate that we cannot wholly predict, down to the letter, what will happen based on an exact precedent, we can rationalize enough based on past precedent to disregard rogue and/or completely outlandish flights of fancy when we are presented with them. Which is what I did.


You think that silly, I think it only rationale to dismiss the highly irrational. So agree to disagree. I will not entertain the notion that this is what SC intended, and I am not alone.









Nothing in SCF's original post is logical. Period. Adopting an unlikely stance as likely is _illogical_. No matter how you try to spin it.



This is not about the altruistic methodology of message boards. It's about one post, completely devoid of logic, masquerading as a logical proclamation. Said post was immediately opposed. As it should have been. That's it.









If it's implied that every leafs fan is bargain bin shopping, why are they continuing to make proposals? Because Canucks fans are in the habit of gifting teams? I disagree though that every leafs fan has had that intention. But it is interesting to hear your take on it.



Your next statement depends on what you consider fair. So what do you consider fair?
That got a little out of hand.

I'm not going to defend SC because I'll let you take that up with him (as it seems you are). I only took exception because you dismissed the idea as not even worth talking about when I thought it was worth talking about. You have been saying there is no reasoning behind it when I saw the reasoning even if I disagreed and that was worth discussing (as we have).

Essentially the suffering cat man said he predicted a Luongo buyout, you said it was a useless post and devoid of any logic, and while I agreed he would likely not be bought out I disagreed that there was no logic for reasons we have already talked about.

Maybe if he had put his rationale in subsequent posts into the first the whole thing could have been avoided.


They are continuing to make proposals because its a negotiation. A negotiation with no real world ramifications, but a negotiation nonetheless.

I'm not saying every Leaf fan is coming in and lowballing Canucks fans to annoy them, but what I am saying is that I (and likely others) only think Luongo makes sense for Toronto if he comes at a discount price. Hence the disjoint in Canucks fans versus Leaf fans proposals you have seen.

Many Vancouver fans see it as trading a top flight goalie so of course they should get significant pieces while many Leaf fans see it more akin to the Giguere trade with Anaheim - acquiring a goalie out of cahoots with his team that carries a large contract. Personally I (and I'm not alone) think Luongo is worth quite a bit more than Giguere was but it varies.

This is what I mean by "fair value" vs "perceived market value". Canucks want fair value (which for a top flight goalie is substantial) and Leafs want what they perceive as market value (which is widely varying).

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01-05-2013, 02:45 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Yet they still enquired about Lu? Still put in an offer?



Dubnyk will be long gone if Lu is there. So that's another 3.75m off the books. Sure, they'll give him his shot this year, see how it goes. But he is not on Luongo's level.



They may go cheap on the goaltending. They may have to. IMO, I think the only reason they're interested in Luongo is because he can make a weak defense look much better than it is. So while they have the guns up front, they can rest assured that their goaltending will keep them in games long enough for their forward talent to take over. Or at least that's the theory. Right now their D and G are suspect. "Fixing" one of those holes can get them to the playoffs sooner rather than later.



Edit: Cogburn just said it much better than I could have.
In fairness, the inquired prior to the sudden fusion of low cap discussions. Not to mention we have no means to verify what their position is on his value. I would want Gagner+ for Luongo, however that leaves them devoid of any worthwhile center depth. Hemsky is also attractive but his injury history concerns me.

Anyhow, Luongo is undoubtedly superior, and I never intended to insinuate otherwise. My point is Edmonton is likely better off running with Dubnyk in a low cap era to see what they have to work with. If they traded for Luongo and expectations for all their prospects paid dividends. They could not afford everyone.

I agree with Cogburn, they may opt to move one of the big four down the road. For now though, I do not see them interested in paying high and tossing Dubnyk to the wolves. The cap makes a notably difference for a number of teams and their interest for Luongo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I can't speak for Leaf Nation, but I would entertain a Gardiner for Schneider trade. To me Schneider represents a much better fit for Toronto in its current state than Luongo, even if he's not quite on Luongo's level (yet). That said, I'd be willing to give up Gardiner plus something decent, but not overboard. I'm pretty high on Gards and I think Leaf management is as well but with Rielly coming up and quite a few decent defensive prospects you have to consider trading him to fill other holes (goaltending, center).

Not trying to offend or anything and I'm sure I've asked this before but is trading Schneider and keeping Luongo even a possibility? I mean I know he said he'd do what was best for the team but it seemed like there was a bit of bad blood in the playoffs there and he requested a trade. Or was that the typical media overblownedness?
I would want the addition to be Lupul, even if we had to add as a result. His contract status lessens his value and Gardiner we could flip to address other needs. That may be somewhat steep but there is not a whole lot the Leafs can add make it appealing from our perspective. Granted, if we had a trade for say Voracek lined up, perhaps I would step off Lupul. Kadri+Franson or something. It essentially amounts to Voracek+Kadri+whatever for Schneider.

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01-05-2013, 02:51 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
In fairness, the inquired prior to the sudden fusion of low cap discussions. Not to mention we have no means to verify what their position is on his value. I would want Gagner+ for Luongo, however that leaves them devoid of any worthwhile center depth. Hemsky is also attractive but his injury history concerns me.

Anyhow, Luongo is undoubtedly superior, and I never intended to insinuate otherwise. My point is Edmonton is likely better off running with Dubnyk in a low cap era to see what they have to work with. If they traded for Luongo and expectations for all their prospects paid dividends. They could not afford everyone.

I agree with Cogburn, they may opt to move one of the big four down the road. For now though, I do not see them interested in paying high and tossing Dubnyk to the wolves. The cap makes a notably difference for a number of teams and their interest for Luongo.



I would want the addition to be Lupul, even if we had to add as a result. His contract status lessens his value and Gardiner we could flip to address other needs. That may be somewhat steep but there is not a whole lot the Leafs can add make it appealing from our perspective. Granted, if we had a trade for say Voracek lined up, perhaps I would step off Lupul. Kadri+Franson or something. It essentially amounts to Voracek+Kadri+whatever for Schneider.
I don't know if I misread this, but if you're saying Kadri + Franson for Schneider/Luongo, I would take that, no questions asked. Please excuse me if I completely butchered your intentions.

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01-05-2013, 02:54 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
No...you...reply...good.

Ok, scrap the caveman talk, I hear you loud and clear Dan, but I maintain hoping for a top pick or hoping for a free agent jackpot isn't a good way to improve a team, and where as those improvements are "maybes" in acquiring, not whether or not they pan out, Luongo is available, and is a huge upgrade.

Your analogy about the hole in the boat not withstanding, as I do find it apt, I'd have to counter with in flux or not, Toronto has some talented wingers in place already, and Lupul isn't even top of the pile with Kessel and JVR now in the mix. A top six center and a top six winger, both being acquired in free agency, and both being high enough talents to improve what the Leafs have...yeah, then we can talk, but we'd be asking more then Lupul at that point

Again, from an outside perspective, I think wingers and defenders are still the Leafs strength, but for everything to pan out, I'd like to see how everyone plays in a Carlyle system before saying "oh yeah, you guys are good, don't worry about it, give use X, Y and Z and you'll be fine".

Strong goaltending and defensive minded forwards and defenders will make Carlyle come across a knight on a white horse, and make some of the guys on the current roster seem much, much better in their own end, and we just want to help by giving you a goalie Carlyle can make full use of. I swear, that's our only motivation

EDIT: Again, I should be clear, I don't advocate Luongo to Toronto because I think our teams are ill suited as trading partners. I am, however, saying that Toronto would help more then nearly anyone currently on the Toronto's roster if the goal is short term success, ie Playoffs, in the next few years.
You're right hoping for a top pick via lottery or a free agent spree is not a good way to build a team and that's actually part of my point. Yes trading for Luongo gives us a short term boost towards the playoffs and I'm all for that, but now we're looking at not only filling our major forward hole with the "hope and a prayer" scenario (a top end center - only one piece but the hardest one to get) but now a top line winger as well. Maybe I just don't have the confidence in JVR that others have but he has a lot to prove in my mind.

Basically I was using those "hope and prayer" scenarios to show when trading for Luongo makes more sense. If we did get a top pick or sign a top player, it makes a heck of a lot more sense because that's a major jump forward and goaltending becomes our last great weakness (still other holes to fill but much more minor ones). If JVR was to develop into a top line winger than that's another scenario where it would make more sense but he's got a ways to go IMO.

This is why I maintain if the season were to start tomorrow, trading for Luongo only makes sense if he comes at a discount price in the form of picks and prospects (because the Leafs have a lot of decent prospects, just not a lot of high end forward prospects) and/or less impactful forwards (i.e. MacArthur, Connolly, Frattin, Kulemin - although I cringe at Kulemin because he was looking very impactful until last season).

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01-05-2013, 02:55 PM
  #182
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One more wrinkle that actually gets us under a $65M cap. Evidently, not as enticing as the first but why not throw it out. For reference sake this operates under (Gardiner+Kadri+Franson for Schnedier, then Gardiner for Voracek)

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Chris Higgins ($1.900m) / Nazem Kadri ($1.720m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Aaron Volpatti ($0.600m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Andrew Ebbett ($0.600m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Cody Franson ($0.840m) / Chris Tanev ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,763,333; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $6,286,667

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01-05-2013, 02:58 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post

I would want the addition to be Lupul, even if we had to add as a result. His contract status lessens his value and Gardiner we could flip to address other needs. That may be somewhat steep but there is not a whole lot the Leafs can add make it appealing from our perspective. Granted, if we had a trade for say Voracek lined up, perhaps I would step off Lupul. Kadri+Franson or something. It essentially amounts to Voracek+Kadri+whatever for Schneider.
Ah yes that is quite steep.

I would be willing to trade Gardiner, but not that much on top of Gardiner. Schneider's a great goalie but Gardiner looks to be a great defenseman if his past season was any indication.

And to clarify, I don't think Lupul has astronomical value or anything. His pending UFA status and injury history definitely lessen it. The issue I have is Lupul's importance to Toronto.

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01-05-2013, 02:58 PM
  #184
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... well I fail. I meant to post that on our board (which I will do now) but it works here too, I guess.

Stupid multiple tabs. >.>

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01-05-2013, 03:02 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Ah yes that is quite steep.

I would be willing to trade Gardiner, but not that much on top of Gardiner. Schneider's a great goalie but Gardiner looks to be a great defenseman if his past season was any indication.

And to clarify, I don't think Lupul has astronomical value or anything. His pending UFA status and injury history definitely lessen it. The issue I have is Lupul's importance to Toronto.
Fair enough, it is high. Since I accidentally posted that roster here. Let's run with the mentioned pieces in it. I wager Franson is a throw away to Toronto. So it boils down to Gardiner+Kadri and we deal the former for what we actually want.

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01-05-2013, 03:02 PM
  #186
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One thing we know for sure. No matter what happens, no matter what he says, no matter the terms of the CBA, nothing in the universe will hurt Luongo's trade value. In fact the reverse seems to be true ? If the NHL chops 300 Million in salery we are told it makes Luongo easier to move. . Demanding a trade, nah that doesn't hurt. Limited market ? Nah he can be traded anywhere, who cares about NT clauses ?

It will be funny when Canuck fans see what they really get, and then they will blame their GM because he did not hold out for the delusional value the more vocal Canucks fans are presenting us with.

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01-05-2013, 03:04 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
That got a little out of hand.

I'm not going to defend SC because I'll let you take that up with him (as it seems you are). I only took exception because you dismissed the idea as not even worth talking about when I thought it was worth talking about. You have been saying there is no reasoning behind it when I saw the reasoning even if I disagreed and that was worth discussing (as we have).

Essentially the suffering cat man said he predicted a Luongo buyout, you said it was a useless post and devoid of any logic, and while I agreed he would likely not be bought out I disagreed that there was no logic for reasons we have already talked about.

Maybe if he had put his rationale in subsequent posts into the first the whole thing could have been avoided.



Bingo. You got it in the last sentence there.




Quote:
They are continuing to make proposals because its a negotiation. A negotiation with no real world ramifications, but a negotiation nonetheless.



Is it a negotiation? If Leafs fans have adopted the "bargain bin or out" stance, what's left to negotiate?



Quote:
I'm not saying every Leaf fan is coming in and lowballing Canucks fans to annoy them, but what I am saying is that I (and likely others) only think Luongo makes sense for Toronto if he comes at a discount price. Hence the disjoint in Canucks fans versus Leaf fans proposals you have seen.

Many Vancouver fans see it as trading a top flight goalie so of course they should get significant pieces while many Leaf fans see it more akin to the Giguere trade with Anaheim - acquiring a goalie out of cahoots with his team that carries a large contract. Personally I (and I'm not alone) think Luongo is worth quite a bit more than Giguere was but it varies.

This is what I mean by "fair value" vs "perceived market value". Canucks want fair value (which for a top flight goalie is substantial) and Leafs want what they perceive as market value (which is widely varying).


Widely varying is another way of saying pick a price you want run with it. Usually coincides with a heavy discount. Perceived market value or bargain bin shopping will all garner similar responses. So there's a choice: Get up to fair value or explain why you can't get there, which you have. But now that you have, do you expect Canucks fans to change their perceptions and accept bargain bin prices?



Canuck fans understand why TOR fans are reticent to pay. What they don't understand, is how that reticence forces them to still deal Luongo to them. Usually this results in a "no deal". But here, it's accept the conditions and _still_ deal, and that makes no sense.

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01-05-2013, 03:09 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
One thing we know for sure. No matter what happens, no matter what he says, no matter the terms of the CBA, nothing in the universe will hurt Luongo's trade value. In fact the reverse seems to be true ? If the NHL chops 300 Million in salery we are told it makes Luongo easier to move. . Demanding a trade, nah that doesn't hurt. Limited market ? Nah he can be traded anywhere, who cares about NT clauses ?

It will be funny when Canuck fans see what they really get, and then they will blame their GM because he did not hold out for the delusional value the more vocal Canucks fans are presenting us with.



The "time to move on" comment hurt his value.


The limited market by way of select teams needing goalie upgrades and his NTC, hurts his value.


The CBA has not been ratified.



Do these things make him a dump or a bargain = No. Carry on.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 01-05-2013 at 03:14 PM.
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01-05-2013, 03:10 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
One thing we know for sure. No matter what happens, no matter what he says, no matter the terms of the CBA, nothing in the universe will hurt Luongo's trade value. In fact the reverse seems to be true ? If the NHL chops 300 Million in salery we are told it makes Luongo easier to move. . Demanding a trade, nah that doesn't hurt. Limited market ? Nah he can be traded anywhere, who cares about NT clauses ?

It will be funny when Canuck fans see what they really get, and then they will blame their GM because he did not hold out for the delusional value the more vocal Canucks fans are presenting us with.
No, you are stubbornly refusing to see rebuttals that disprove your claims. I shall reiterate once again:

- Many of us have conceded a $60 million cap does negatively impact Luongo's value, hence the Schneider discussions.
- A great deal of hockey fans in general believe the cap will fall around $65M, rendering the above moot.
- Luongo has a good cap hit relevant to goaltenders of his caliber.
- In the event he does not retirement, cap floor teams are liable to look for salary high, cap low contracts, thus facilitating an out.
- Luongo has never specifically stated he wants out. In fact, he recently said the contrary.
- He has essentially waived his NTC by both his own admission and comments about playing in Chicago and Toronto.

Like Bleach said. Even at lower value, Luongo is and will never be a cap dump.

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01-05-2013, 03:11 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I don't think I made any personal attacks, but noted.

Toronto is still a 4 hour flight from Florida, it's not "extremely close". It's closer, but Columbus, as in Ohio, isn't significantly further either. I gave you Edmonton as being further, but it's also closer to Florida then Vancouver.

And I never claimed Luongo didn't have control, at least to some arguable degree, over his destination, but that he would just as easily cut Toronto as Columbus or Edmonton...none are perfect destinations, I can't see him thinking of Toronto as that much better a destination compared to another of other rumoured parties.

Florida is a 2 hour flight, not 4.

And it's simple. If Florida is Lu's #1 then location is at the top of his list. Toronto in that regard is 10x more appealing then Columbus, Edmonton of SJ.

It's simple, that's all I'm saying. Toronto, in regards to location would be #2 on his list and that's by a quite a large margin.

Luongo also has A LOT of control over where he goes. It just depends on if he chooses to use it.

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01-05-2013, 03:15 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I don't think I made any personal attacks, but noted.

Toronto is still a 4 hour flight from Florida, it's not "extremely close". It's closer, but Columbus, as in Ohio, isn't significantly further either. I gave you Edmonton as being further, but it's also closer to Florida then Vancouver.

And I never claimed Luongo didn't have control, at least to some arguable degree, over his destination, but that he would just as easily cut Toronto as Columbus or Edmonton...none are perfect destinations, I can't see him thinking of Toronto as that much better a destination compared to another of other rumoured parties.
At the most it's about a 2.5 hour flight from Toronto to any major city in Florida.

Luongo said himself the Panthers are his #1 choice, but Vancouver might get the best deal from Toronto and they would tell him that.

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01-05-2013, 03:17 PM
  #192
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So have we established that there are no real out-clauses in Luongo's contract?

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01-05-2013, 03:19 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
One more wrinkle that actually gets us under a $65M cap. Evidently, not as enticing as the first but why not throw it out. For reference sake this operates under (Gardiner+Kadri+Franson for Schnedier, then Gardiner for Voracek)

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Chris Higgins ($1.900m) / Nazem Kadri ($1.720m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Aaron Volpatti ($0.600m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Andrew Ebbett ($0.600m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Cody Franson ($0.840m) / Chris Tanev ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,763,333; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $6,286,667
This is the smarter option and post. This is what I think Vancouver needs and it's within reason. Not sure if Toronto deals that specifically for Schneider and if Philly would deal Voracek for that, but it's at least reasonable.

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01-05-2013, 03:20 PM
  #194
Vankiller Whale
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So have we established that there are no real out-clauses in Luongo's contract?
Are you referring to right now or in 6 years time?

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01-05-2013, 03:21 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
So have we established that there are no real out-clauses in Luongo's contract?
- Low salary makes him unlikely to play through its duration.
- Salary high; cap low makes it appealing to cap floor teams down the road.
- Burying him in the minors may remain an option in the new CBA.

So yes, he does have out-clauses unless you presume his contract is unmovable ever. In which case, there is no reason to talk. We're inevitably going to run in circles.

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01-05-2013, 03:22 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Are you referring to right now or in 6 years time?
Both.

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01-05-2013, 03:24 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Bingo. You got it in the last sentence there.






Is it a negotiation? If Leafs fans have adopted the "bargain bin or out" stance, what's left to negotiate?
Why, what constitutes a bargain, of course!

Certain posters have gotten very close before which on a trade message board means that the potential for a deal is very much real.

Quote:



Widely varying is another way of saying pick a price you want run with it. Usually coincides with a heavy discount. Perceived market value or bargain bin shopping will all garner similar responses. So there's a choice: Get up to fair value or explain why you can't get there, which you have. But now that you have, do you expect Canucks fans to change their perceptions and accept bargain bin prices?
Widely varying market value means the perceived price changes from individual to individual, and even can change for each individual based on CBA negotiations.

Like I stated above, its all about what people consider a bargain versus what Canucks fans are willing to accept. It varies between posters, but the potential for a deal exists and that's why the thread continues. Also, people love to argue about Luongo's value and that shows up here as part of it. I don't expect you to change your perception necessarily, but the search for common ground continues. I myself several threads ago had a fairly close deal with a Vancouver poster...who was it? Vankiller whale maybe? I don't remember.

Those perceptions vary from fan to fan as well. Its actually amazing how widely varied perceptions of Luongo are here ranging from complete garbage to top 5 goalie.

Not to mention we're all bored without hockey.

Quote:

Canuck fans understand why TOR fans are reticent to pay. What they don't understand, is how that reticence forces them to still deal Luongo to them. Usually this results in a "no deal". But here, it's accept the conditions and _still_ deal, and that makes no sense
Conversely, Toronto fans understand Canuck fans want value for their goalie, but many don't think they can realistically get it. And thus the debate continues.

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01-05-2013, 03:24 PM
  #198
marty111
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
At the most it's about a 2.5 hour flight from Toronto to any major city in Florida.

Luongo said himself the Panthers are his #1 choice, but Vancouver might get the best deal from Toronto and they would tell him that.
Thank you!

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01-05-2013, 03:25 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
- Low salary makes him unlikely to play through its duration.
- Salary high; cap low makes it appealing to cap floor teams down the road.
- Burying him in the minors may remain an option in the new CBA.

So yes, he does have out-clauses unless you presume his contract is unmovable ever. In which case, there is no reason to talk. We're inevitably going to run in circles.
Those are not out-clauses, those are having better chances to jettison Luongo.

I wish people would stop talking about out-clauses because the previous CBA (and most likely the next) don't have such things.

Sending Luongo to minors is not an out-clause, especially in the new CBA.

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01-05-2013, 03:26 PM
  #200
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Both.
Well why would anyone want out of his contract during his prime years?

As for the future, as has been mentioned, he can(in order of likliness) retire, be traded to a team needing to reach the cap floor, or be sent to the minors. Any of thpse eliminates the risk of Luongo's contract becoming an albatross. Even if the CBA does make those contracts count against the cap, Luongo isn't going to finish his potentially HOF career riding the bus.

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