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Luongo: The Neverending Story

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:27 PM
  #201
Spazmatic Dan
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Fair enough, it is high. Since I accidentally posted that roster here. Let's run with the mentioned pieces in it. I wager Franson is a throw away to Toronto. So it boils down to Gardiner+Kadri and we deal the former for what we actually want.
On Franson, I would much rather keep him them then give him away for nothing.

Gardiner + Kadri for Schneider is still a bit steep in my opinion.

I would look for something more along the lines of Gardiner + Ashton + pick (2nd?) or something?

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01-05-2013, 02:28 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
- Low salary makes him unlikely to play through its duration.
- Salary high; cap low makes it appealing to cap floor teams down the road.
- Burying him in the minors may remain an option in the new CBA.

So yes, he does have out-clauses unless you presume his contract is unmovable ever. In which case, there is no reason to talk. We're inevitably going to run in circles.
They are all a stretch though.

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01-05-2013, 02:28 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
In fairness, the inquired prior to the sudden fusion of low cap discussions. Not to mention we have no means to verify what their position is on his value. I would want Gagner+ for Luongo, however that leaves them devoid of any worthwhile center depth. Hemsky is also attractive but his injury history concerns me.


They inquired prior to the _proposed_ 60m cap. Also, prior to salaries being eaten in trade and the two buyout clause. So let's say it was for Hemsky. Then they buy out Horcoff and try to find a new home for Dubnyk down the line. That's 14.25m out, 5.3m in. 64.3m cap used right now, so that put them in the 55m range. I really don't want to do a Cap Geek roster for them but if they are losing a net 9m~ dollars overall just from that, I think they'll be ok.



Quote:
Anyhow, Luongo is undoubtedly superior, and I never intended to insinuate otherwise. My point is Edmonton is likely better off running with Dubnyk in a low cap era to see what they have to work with. If they traded for Luongo and expectations for all their prospects paid dividends. They could not afford everyone.

I agree with Cogburn, they may opt to move one of the big four down the road. For now though, I do not see them interested in paying high and tossing Dubnyk to the wolves. The cap makes a notably difference for a number of teams and their interest for Luongo.


Personally, I think they shed guys like Gagner and Whitney before not being able to pay raises to others becomes even a question. And yes, I foresee the same thing Cogburn listed. They will move a main piece to round out their roster. My guess is a #1 LHD, and the piece will be Eberle.



Dubnyk is a placeholder IMO.

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:35 PM
  #204
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I'd go Gardiner, Franson and a 2014 first for Schneider... I think.

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Van Reimsdyk - Grabovski - Kadri
MacArthur - McClement - Kulemin
...

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson
Liles - ?
...

Schneider
Reimer

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01-05-2013, 02:36 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Why, what constitutes a bargain, of course!

Certain posters have gotten very close before which on a trade message board means that the potential for a deal is very much real.


There were, way back when. That's all gone now.



Quote:
Widely varying market value means the perceived price changes from individual to individual, and even can change for each individual based on CBA negotiations.

Like I stated above, its all about what people consider a bargain versus what Canucks fans are willing to accept. It varies between posters, but the potential for a deal exists and that's why the thread continues. Also, people love to argue about Luongo's value and that shows up here as part of it. I don't expect you to change your perception necessarily, but the search for common ground continues. I myself several threads ago had a fairly close deal with a Vancouver poster...who was it? Vankiller whale maybe? I don't remember.

Those perceptions vary from fan to fan as well. Its actually amazing how widely varied perceptions of Luongo are here ranging from complete garbage to top 5 goalie.

Not to mention we're all bored without hockey.


I think we're just bored.



Quote:
Conversely, Toronto fans understand Canuck fans want value for their goalie, but many don't think they can realistically get it. And thus the debate continues.


If they can't realistically get it, that means send him to TO? If they aren't getting value anywhere, how does TOR emerge as the likely destination regardless? Need. That's why. To VAN, if they can't get value, they can't get value. It doesn't matter to them that TOR's need is greater than that of others. So you see, VAN fans can't even say thanks but no thanks and walk away from the proposals because _some_ TOR fans insist that he must go to TOR.


Basically, no value + we have to send him to TO. Not just no value.

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01-05-2013, 02:40 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well why would anyone want out of his contract during his prime years?

As for the future, as has been mentioned, he can(in order of likliness) retire, be traded to a team needing to reach the cap floor, or be sent to the minors. Any of thpse eliminates the risk of Luongo's contract becoming an albatross. Even if the CBA does make those contracts count against the cap, Luongo isn't going to finish his potentially HOF career riding the bus.
Good question. Why does Canucks want to trade "Luongo in his prime years" in the first place.

Luongo can choose to retire whenever he wants, his team has absolutely no say in that.

Cap floor is coming down, very few teams have/want to reach it by signing Luongo.

Everything else is just speculation, Wade Redden has rode the bus for 2 years when he's 35y and having made tens of millions.

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01-05-2013, 02:41 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I'd go Gardiner, Franson and a 2014 first for Schneider... I think.

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Van Reimsdyk - Grabovski - Kadri
MacArthur - McClement - Kulemin
...

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson
Liles - ?
...

Schneider
Reimer
if the canucks are prepared to trade schneider, that offer would definitely be one they'd consider.

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Old
01-05-2013, 02:42 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post


I think we're just bored.
Probably.



Quote:

If they can't realistically get it, that means send him to TO? If they aren't getting value anywhere, how does TOR emerge as the likely destination regardless? Need. That's why. To VAN, if they can't get value, they can't get value. It doesn't matter to them that TOR's need is greater than that of others. So you see, VAN fans can't even say thanks but no thanks and walk away from the proposals because _some_ TOR fans insist that he must go to TOR.


Basically, no value + we have to send him to TO. Not just no value.
If that's what you think of the proposals I suggest you ignore them.

Otherwise, if you're interested in expanding on what they offer, respond to them.

For me and some other Leafs fans, we're discussing what the Leafs can and should offer and why. Doesn't mean you have to trade him to Toronto, or trade him at all.

Although I do think he will be traded somewhere after that "moving on" thing. Not sure where, but I don't think keeping him is a viable option after that. I also don't think it will be a necessary option.

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01-05-2013, 02:42 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by pullyoursocksup View Post
if the canucks are prepared to trade schneider, that offer would definitely be one they'd consider.
I hope so, I've seen proposals asking for far more.

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01-05-2013, 02:44 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
On Franson, I would much rather keep him them then give him away for nothing.

Gardiner + Kadri for Schneider is still a bit steep in my opinion.

I would look for something more along the lines of Gardiner + Ashton + pick (2nd?) or something?
I'd pass on that. Ashton is not an appealing prospect and frankly, I do not foresee him cracking our roster at any point. Kadri fills our need of third line center and considering the expectations surrounding Schneider. I wouldn't want to let him go for anything less than Gardiner+Kadri, which to most Canuck fans is already low. I would add Raymond to get Kadri and Franson/whatever added, albeit that is largely because he wouldn't have a place on our roster.

So...

Gardiner + Kadri for Schneider or
Gardiner + Kadri + Franson for Schneider + Raymond.

I wouldn't go lower.

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01-05-2013, 02:46 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I'd go Gardiner, Franson and a 2014 first for Schneider... I think.

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Van Reimsdyk - Grabovski - Kadri
MacArthur - McClement - Kulemin
...

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson
Liles - ?
...

Schneider
Reimer
Pricey, but worth talking about. I'd rather hang on to Franson in that case if he's not worth much in the trade.

Defense would probably look something like

Phaneuf-Gunnarsson
Liles-Komisarek
Holzer-Franson
Ranger?

With Rielly, Finn, Percy and Blacker as the wild cards with outside shots to Gramberg and Nilsson in the future.

Not quite as shiny for the future but still pretty good.

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01-05-2013, 02:50 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I'd pass on that. Ashton is not an appealing prospect and frankly, I do not foresee him cracking our roster at any point. Kadri fills our need of third line center and considering the expectations surrounding Schneider. I wouldn't want to let him go for anything less than Gardiner+Kadri, which to most Canuck fans is already low. I would add Raymond to get Kadri and Franson/whatever added, albeit that is largely because he wouldn't have a place on our roster.

So...

Gardiner + Kadri for Schneider or
Gardiner + Kadri + Franson for Schneider + Raymond.

I wouldn't go lower.
Franson for Raymond doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for Toronto either I don't think. In the event that Toronto moves Gardiner I would prefer to hold on to Franson. Not that Raymond's a bad player, but I don't see a spot for him since we didn't lose any wingers and Franson still has good potential.

Gardiner + Kadri I think is still too steep. Gardiner + Biggs maybe?

EDIT: Sorry missed when you said you wouldn't go lower. Well its a thought anyway.

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01-05-2013, 02:51 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Probably.

If that's what you think of the proposals I suggest you ignore them.

Otherwise, if you're interested in expanding on what they offer, respond to them.

For me and some other Leafs fans, we're discussing what the Leafs can and should offer and why. Doesn't mean you have to trade him to Toronto, or trade him at all.

Although I do think he will be traded somewhere after that "moving on" thing. Not sure where, but I don't think keeping him is a viable option after that. I also don't think it will be a necessary option.



I think he'll move to. Whether that's TOR or not, I don't know.



I've seen a myriad of proposals. Responded to a few even. But I've seen time and time again that when an impasse occurs, and both sides retreat to their corners, it's leafs fans saying that he must move to them. That to dump him is better than being saddled with 9m+ in salary. Then the conversation devolves.


I don't think that of all proposals, but the bargain hunters are easy to spot.

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01-05-2013, 02:53 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Pricey, but worth talking about. I'd rather hang on to Franson in that case if he's not worth much in the trade.

Defense would probably look something like

Phaneuf-Gunnarsson
Liles-Komisarek
Holzer-Franson
Ranger?

With Rielly, Finn, Percy and Blacker as the wild cards with outside shots to Gramberg and Nilsson in the future.

Not quite as shiny for the future but still pretty good.
Normally the reaction for a fair trade I think. I would expect Burke to grab another defensemen either through trade or UFA though.

We'd have some promising goal-tending that's for sure. With Schneider, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, 2013 1st, Finn, etc. I think the future would look pretty good along side Phaneuf, Kessel, Grabbo and Lupul.

But with that being said, it won't happen.

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01-05-2013, 02:55 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I think he'll move to. Whether that's TOR or not, I don't know.



I've seen a myriad of proposals. Responded to a few even. But I've seen time and time again that when an impasse occurs, and both sides retreat to their corners, it's leafs fans saying that he must move to them. That to dump him is better than being saddled with 9m+ in salary. Then the conversation devolves.


I don't think that of all proposals, but the bargain hunters are easy to spot.
I think the biggest disjoint is that many Canuck fans are confident they can hold on to Luongo without issue if they don't get a good deal, while other fans don't think that's a good option.

Its been debated ad nauseum however.

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01-05-2013, 02:56 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Normally the reaction for a fair trade I think. I would expect Burke to grab another defensemen either through trade or UFA though.

We'd have some promising goal-tending that's for sure. With Schneider, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, 2013 1st, Finn, etc. I think the future would look pretty good along side Phaneuf, Kessel, Grabbo and Lupul.

But with that being said, it won't happen.
I agree. I think its all but a given that Schneider is Vancouver's goalie going forward and Luongo will be moved.

Its fun to talk about though.

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01-05-2013, 02:57 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Franson for Raymond doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for Toronto either I don't think. In the event that Toronto moves Gardiner I would prefer to hold on to Franson. Not that Raymond's a bad player, but I don't see a spot for him since we didn't lose any wingers and Franson still has good potential.

Gardiner + Kadri I think is still too steep. Gardiner + Biggs maybe?
I figured Raymond could slot say, where marty111 put Kadri. Ironically, he and Kulemin might jell considering their similar players, just one physical, the other speedy. Either way he is admittedly a throw in for us because we'd have superior options on the second line.

If we hadn't traded for Kassian, Biggs may have been worth consideration but right now we have Kassian and Gaunce to fill the "physical" role. Kadri is also NHL ready, whereas Biggs is not. We need the former to benefit a cup run. Mostly, Kadri fills a need while Biggs couldn't dislodge Higgins or Hansen any time soon. If we're trading Schneider. I want to address just about everything.

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01-05-2013, 03:03 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I think the biggest disjoint is that many Canuck fans are confident they can hold on to Luongo without issue if they don't get a good deal, while other fans don't think that's a good option.

Its been debated ad nauseum however.


I think it's quite obvious that VAN can't hold onto Luongo indefinitely. They can definitely hold onto Luongo _this_year_. Beyond that, no way. But that doesn't translate to dumping him, and it definitely doesn't mean they have to dump him to TOR.


Oh, and Kipper's source says NHL agreed to 63m. Guess that discussion was kinda pointless lol. I think it will end up at around 63.5 or 64m, and then we can drop the puck.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 01-05-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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01-05-2013, 03:07 PM
  #219
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I figured Raymond could slot say, where marty111 put Kadri.
Thing is, it comes down to value. I'd take Kadri, Kulemin and even Mac over Raymond in our top 6. Not a knock on Raymond but I feel Kadri and Kulemin add something Raymond doesn't and Mac is already a proven asset for us considering his history on the Leafs. So IF we had those options I wouldn't slot Raymond in out top 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
If we're trading Schneider. I want to address just about everything.
This I can understand. Our values are not that far apart but I think my offer makes more sense for the Leafs. Kadri or Franson and a 1st?

Anyway it's moot.

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01-05-2013, 03:10 PM
  #220
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Luongo for Bozak, Kulemin, and Finn

Deal or no deal?

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01-05-2013, 03:10 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I think it's quite obvious that VAN can't hold onto Luongo indefinitely. They can definitely hold onto Luongo _this_year_. Beyond that, no way. But that doesn't translate to dumping him, and it definitely doesn't mean they have to dump him to TOR.


Oh, and Kipper's source says NHL agreed to 63m. Guess that discussion was kinda pointless lol. I think it will end up at around 63.5 or 64m, and then we can drop the puck.
You have a link?

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01-05-2013, 03:13 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by capitalsrock View Post
Luongo for Bozak, Kulemin, and Finn

Deal or no deal?
Maybe deal...depends on CBA.

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01-05-2013, 03:15 PM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capitalsrock View Post
Luongo for Bozak, Kulemin, and Finn

Deal or no deal?
Swap Bozak for something else and I'd be okay with it(but not happy). I really don't think we should take Bozak as part of his value. What's his equivalent value to TO? Kadri? A conditional 1st? Heck, I might even prefer swapping him for something like Franson + 2nd.

And again, not happy about it, but seems reasonable.

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01-05-2013, 03:19 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I figured Raymond could slot say, where marty111 put Kadri. Ironically, he and Kulemin might jell considering their similar players, just one physical, the other speedy. Either way he is admittedly a throw in for us because we'd have superior options on the second line.

If we hadn't traded for Kassian, Biggs may have been worth consideration but right now we have Kassian and Gaunce to fill the "physical" role. Kadri is also NHL ready, whereas Biggs is not. We need the former to benefit a cup run. Mostly, Kadri fills a need while Biggs couldn't dislodge Higgins or Hansen any time soon. If we're trading Schneider. I want to address just about everything.
Ah I see. Makes sense.

Heck, I'm willing to throw in Connolly for Raymond if you think it would help your roster to have a center .

Kind've OT, but the Leafs experimented with Franson on the left side last year and it turned out rather poorly. Just looking at your proposed roster there...not sure if you meant that to be the sides they play on or not.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I think it's quite obvious that VAN can't hold onto Luongo indefinitely. They can definitely hold onto Luongo _this_year_. Beyond that, no way. But that doesn't translate to dumping him, and it definitely doesn't mean they have to dump him to TOR.


Oh, and Kipper's source says NHL agreed to 63m. Guess that discussion was kinda pointless lol. I think it will end up at around 63.5 or 64m, and then we can drop the puck.
63M eh? Would give Vancouver a little more wiggle room for sure.

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01-05-2013, 03:22 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Thing is, it comes down to value. I'd take Kadri, Kulemin and even Mac over Raymond in our top 6. Not a knock on Raymond but I feel Kadri and Kulemin add something Raymond doesn't and Mac is already a proven asset for us considering his history on the Leafs. So IF we had those options I wouldn't slot Raymond in out top 6.



This I can understand. Our values are not that far apart but I think my offer makes more sense for the Leafs. Kadri or Franson and a 1st?

Anyway it's moot.
Fair enough. Personally, I could see Raymond bouncing back into a respectable 45-50 point player and his defensive upside might be of value over say, MacArthur. That said, I cannot fault the apprehension. He hasn't been the most consistent player to say the least.

Anywho, both deals are close. Not surprisingly, mine (Gardiner+Kadri) better fits the Canucks. The first may appeal to some but I'd prefer a NHL ready prospect that could step in now, in lieu of that picks likely not producing until after the Sedin era's swan song. On another note, this may be the closest both sides have come to something in a while.

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