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Lockout VII: I've walked for miles, my feet are hurting

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01-05-2013, 02:59 PM
  #276
aj8000
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
By having a smaller league.

I fully support a significant contraction of league size. I also strongly advocate for creation of formal second/third tier leagues and instituting promotion/relegation between them.

I want real competition between the very best, not the muddled, mediocre mess the league currently represents.
Yeah, I can see that working long term. Not to mention the fact you would not get what you expect.


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01-05-2013, 03:07 PM
  #277
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get ready to flame me big time

But I have some buddies who work for KHL teams and they are saying the NHL players on their respective teams are expecting to be on a conference call sometime shortly(between now and 3am Moscow time) with reps from the NHLPA. There is something going on to night---but your guess is as good as mine. One report out the Sweden suggested the NHLPA was going to shutdown discussions until June.

Like I said flame away. As of right now, the nhl players that are playing in the British Elite league have not informed their teams they either wont be coming back from North America (some went over for christmas) or that they are leaving shortly. Why do I know this part? I work part-time for the British Elite League Marketing department (mostly pre-game prep work for visiting teams)

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01-05-2013, 03:18 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
get ready to flame me big time

But I have some buddies who work for KHL teams and they are saying the NHL players on their respective teams are expecting to be on a conference call sometime shortly(between now and 3am Moscow time) with reps from the NHLPA. There is something going on to night---but your guess is as good as mine. One report out the Sweden suggested the NHLPA was going to shutdown discussions until June.

Like I said flame away. As of right now, the nhl players that are playing in the British Elite league have not informed their teams they either wont be coming back from North America (some went over for christmas) or that they are leaving shortly. Why do I know this part? I work part-time for the British Elite League Marketing department (mostly pre-game prep work for visiting teams)
It is what it is; I put this in the same category as the rest of the info out there. So much being said it's impossible to know what is real and what is not. Until the season is canceled or there is a deal none of it really matters.

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01-05-2013, 03:22 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
It is what it is; I put this in the same category as the rest of the info out there. So much being said it's impossible to know what is real and what is not. Until the season is canceled or there is a deal none of it really matters.
Getting news third and fourth hand due to the nature of my job. But it sounds more and more some European teams have started the process of replacing the NHL players. Sounds like to me, that the players have been told they will be getting a phone call within the next two hours with either good or bad news.

Like I said got no problem getting flames--just filling in on what is happening in some parts of Europe

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01-05-2013, 03:24 PM
  #280
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I'm curious - why would they have to replace players if the season ends up being dumped? Would it be part of the decertification process - ie, their Euro contracts are somehow tied to their PA status?

 
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01-05-2013, 03:26 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
get ready to flame me big time

But I have some buddies who work for KHL teams and they are saying the NHL players on their respective teams are expecting to be on a conference call sometime shortly(between now and 3am Moscow time) with reps from the NHLPA. There is something going on to night---but your guess is as good as mine. One report out the Sweden suggested the NHLPA was going to shutdown discussions until June.

Like I said flame away. As of right now, the nhl players that are playing in the British Elite league have not informed their teams they either wont be coming back from North America (some went over for christmas) or that they are leaving shortly. Why do I know this part? I work part-time for the British Elite League Marketing department (mostly pre-game prep work for visiting teams)
So, basically, the lockout could end, and then again, it could not. Earth-shattering!

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01-05-2013, 03:28 PM
  #282
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Agreed. Here we go again with hyperbole about how 'terrible' the game is, when in the average player from today is probably much better than a player from the last era.
Though that has nothing to do with the CBA of the NHL, more with the advancement of training knowledge.

Also players being better doesn't necessarily mean more entertaining hockey.

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01-05-2013, 03:29 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
Getting news third and fourth hand due to the nature of my job. But it sounds more and more some European teams have started the process of replacing the NHL players. Sounds like to me, that the players have been told they will be getting a phone call within the next two hours with either good or bad news.

Like I said got no problem getting flames--just filling in on what is happening in some parts of Europe
I do appreciate the info like I said it's just hard to know what is really going on because there is so much out there.

For what it's worth I personally believe there is zero chance the NHL misses a full season and that it was never really an option for the players or the owners.

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01-05-2013, 03:37 PM
  #284
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No. The players are sacrificing money -- maybe -- to use the collective bargaining process to negotiate the best contract.

It's easy for for internet know-it-alls to sneer at the players "but if they accepted the deal on Oct. 16"

You use the process and you negotiate and you don't get pushed offer by a bunch of greedy billionaires.

If it costs you money in the long run, it hardly matters.
That makes no sense. You say players are sacrifiying money to get the best contract? What is that "best contract"? It has to be worth more than the money they have lost so far, unless you value the contract rights to be more valuable than money lost, which in turn says PA favors one group of players (players with contracts) over others.

Greedy billionaires? That's rich, I guess you're greedy when you don't want to lose money.

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01-05-2013, 03:45 PM
  #285
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That makes no sense. You say players are sacrifiying money to get the best contract? What is that "best contract"? It has to be worth more than the money they have lost so far, unless you value the contract rights to be more valuable than money lost, which in turn says PA favors one group of players (players with contracts) over others.

Greedy billionaires? That's rich, I guess you're greedy when you don't want to lose money.
But they clearly do want to lose money. See: Phoenix, outspending your means when you don't have to, etc.

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01-05-2013, 03:48 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
So, basically, the lockout could end, and then again, it could not. Earth-shattering!
In the 4 months of the lockout--this is the first time I am hearing of players missing flights and taking over a conference room in the middle of the night in Moscow

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01-05-2013, 03:48 PM
  #287
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what storyline? The NFL is the most popular sport in America because of a salary cap and yet their are still dynasties and teams that routinely suck.

The NHL is better off with a cap, in fact, I wish it was more balanced so that the halves and half nots weren't so clearly defined.
I don't agree with that at all. It's popular because your country likes football, it's the best league in said country and because they know how to market themselves. It has absolutely nothing to do with a salary cap.

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01-05-2013, 03:51 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I do appreciate the info like I said it's just hard to know what is really going on because there is so much out there.

For what it's worth I personally believe there is zero chance the NHL misses a full season and that it was never really an option for the players or the owners.
The only constant in the three places (Sweden, Moscow and Germany of all places) is the the NHL made a huge move on pensions sometime over the past 24 to 48 hours and that got Fehrs attention. Someone said that one of the things Fehr works hard for is to get a good pension for his players

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01-05-2013, 03:52 PM
  #289
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So, basically, the lockout could end, and then again, it could not. Earth-shattering!
Is your last name Dreger

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01-05-2013, 03:56 PM
  #290
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If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times....

The NHL will not contract until there are no more open markets interested in having a team. I'll say this right now, the NHL will sooner let a team in Saskatoon before they contracted anybody.

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01-05-2013, 03:57 PM
  #291
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I don't agree with that at all. It's popular because your country likes football, it's the best league in said country and because they know how to market themselves. It has absolutely nothing to do with a salary cap.
NFL players fought for and received free agency in 1994. In response the NFL owners adopted a salary cap system. People really need to stop ignoring these two massive changes in the NFL's structure especially in relation to the overall success of the league today. Simply put the NFL as we know it doesn't exist without free agency and a salary cap because the players and owners were not willing to have a league without them.

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01-05-2013, 04:03 PM
  #292
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what storyline?

Whichever one they decide to play up every year, especially right before the Super Bowl.


Quote:
The NFL is the most popular sport in America because of a salary cap and yet their are still dynasties and teams that routinely suck.
It is not the most popular because of a salary cap, it is the most popular because of how many people like football and how many play football. Check the Texas high school leagues - their popularity has bugger all to do with a salary cap.



Quote:
The NHL is better off with a cap, in fact, I wish it was more balanced so that the halves and half nots weren't so clearly defined.

The cap won't do that and this has been proven. What will do it is real revenue sharing like they have in the NFL. Unfortunately, the NHL owners won't ever agree to that.

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01-05-2013, 04:09 PM
  #293
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Spectacle? The problem is people have and continue to present actual evidence as to why the cap is not only good for the league but why because of free agency it will never go away. The "anti-parity" crowd offers nothing more than opinion, and in some cases laughable opinions.
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Haha, when exactly was the NFL a second tier league? Are you talking about the 1960's and the AFL/NFL merger because the NFL has been number 1 in TV ratings since the late 1960's? Because I would hope that you are intelligent enough to understand that TV revenue then and TV revenue now is apples and oranges. TV revenue now compared to 20 years ago is apples and oranges due to technology. TV revenue is the future of professional sports, and it's not an opinion it's a fact.

Hey hold up. NFL was number 2 overall including everything until 1994. Reality is Baseball was number one, but thing is back then the East Coast Dominated the culture, not so now. In Middle America baseball has been dead since your Red Sox won the first time. It was a cultural shift. The cap played a part but there are just more people that like football now. Some will even argue the Baseball TV contracts are a bubble that will pop although I don't agree


And the anti parity crowd has several fair arguments. Like instead of some teams being crappy everyone is mediocre. There are not great teams only hot one. Only 1 star per team. 30 mediocre teams lead to bad playoffs, like this year


And finally, no matter how much parity we have the league will never become more popular because of it. NHL is number, mayb e number 5 just in team sports. All parity has done is create the same thing we had before the lockout just that everyone has the exact same of it 3 100 points players last year. Worst since 1999. No lockout has changed the game yet.

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01-05-2013, 04:11 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
NFL players fought for and received free agency in 1994. In response the NFL owners adopted a salary cap system. People really need to stop ignoring these two massive changes in the NFL's structure especially in relation to the overall success of the league today. Simply put the NFL as we know it doesn't exist without free agency and a salary cap because the players and owners were not willing to have a league without them.
NFL had neither for years. They had an uncapped year recently.

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01-05-2013, 04:12 PM
  #295
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Hey hold up. NFL was number 2 overall including everything until 1994.
Not even close. Mid-70s, if not earlier, is when the NFL surpassed Major League Baseball in terms of overall popularity by just about every measurable statistic.

That's about as fake of a stat as when people still try to claim that the NHL was poised to overtake the NBA because of a magazine cover even though nothing within even came remotely close to saying that.

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01-05-2013, 04:13 PM
  #296
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The cap won't do that and this has been proven. What will do it is real revenue sharing like they have in the NFL. Unfortunately, the NHL owners won't ever agree to that.
Fun fact: take NHL gate revenues (42% of total revenues) and split them 60-40 like the NFL does. You only end up moving $94M from rich team to poor. Take another 42% of revenues and split them evenly. Now you're sharing a way bigger %age than the NFL shares, and you still only redistributing $330M (total). Sixth grade math. And that ignores the NBC contract that the NHL already shares, too.

I wish people would do the math and figure out what they're talking about when they compare the NFL and NHL. The NHL probably does just about as much revenue sharing as the NFL. They do it through a nominally different system that gives everyone this bonkers idea that it's much less.

NFL Model: Team A makes $100M, Team B makes $90M. Everybody puts all $190M in one pot (100% sharing!) and splits it evenly.

NHL Model: Team A writes a check for $5M (only 2.5% sharing!) to Team B.

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01-05-2013, 04:14 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
The only constant in the three places (Sweden, Moscow and Germany of all places) is the the NHL made a huge move on pensions sometime over the past 24 to 48 hours and that got Fehrs attention. Someone said that one of the things Fehr works hard for is to get a good pension for his players
They did? According to the reports players will still pay for their pensios.

So what is this huge move you talk about?

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01-05-2013, 04:17 PM
  #298
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NFL had neither for years. They had an uncapped year recently.
Point is they go hand and hand. The owners got the cap system in response to free agency and the players fought for and received free agency in a court of law.

As far as the uncapped season of a few years ago I suggest you look up the NFLPA's collussion case against the NFL.

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01-05-2013, 04:23 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Not even close. Mid-70s, if not earlier, is when the NFL surpassed Major League Baseball in terms of overall popularity by just about every measurable statistic.

That's about as fake of a stat as when people still try to claim that the NHL was poised to overtake the NBA because of a magazine cover even though nothing within even came remotely close to saying that.
Yup. Fact is the NFL has been # 1 since the NFL created the Super Bowl. I have argued against this fact in the past only to be proven wrong.

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01-05-2013, 04:30 PM
  #300
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And the anti parity crowd has several fair arguments. Like instead of some teams being crappy everyone is mediocre. There are not great teams only hot one. Only 1 star per team. 30 mediocre teams lead to bad playoffs, like this year

And finally, no matter how much parity we have the league will never become more popular because of it. NHL is number, mayb e number 5 just in team sports. All parity has done is create the same thing we had before the lockout just that everyone has the exact same of it 3 100 points players last year. Worst since 1999. No lockout has changed the game yet.
I disagree on all points and I like to back up my arguments with facts not opinions.

For instance individual point totals in the NHL have gone down in the past 30 years due to the improved ability of NHL goalies, the improved technology and increase in sheer size of goalie equipment, and the adaption of defensive styled hockey not because the talent pool in the NHL is watered down due to the salary cap and league wide parity.

As an opinion I would argue that individual point totals in the NHL are down because the overall talent level in the NHL has drastically increased over the past 30 years and that the 4th liner in today's NHL is light years ahead of the 4th liner in the 1980's.


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