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David Desharnais

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Old
01-05-2013, 03:53 PM
  #76
inthewings
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we will see next season but now he is not for sale. Especially cuz a lot of u r septic and I will never get an interesting offer.
He'd look good on a team like Nashville that could use some raw skill, especially if Fisher could be convinced to move to the wing where I always thought he was more effective. A Fisher-Desharnais-Hornqvist line would be no joke.

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01-05-2013, 04:21 PM
  #77
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I've explained myself a bit already. You just dont want to read it. Now you ask me again. He's not a goal scorer, so always have to rely on his linemates. Pretty high SH%, and that with just 16 goals. When his linemates dont produce, he wont produce. Good passer, but not great. He received enough ice-time to succeed last season. That will change on a contender. You can laugh about this, but I cant help that. You constantly come up with his 60 points but when I say that will change as 2nd line center than its suddenly a stupid observation. Teams prefer physical 2nd line centers anyway, ones with great offensive skill, centers with close to elite two-way play or a mix from these three. His size might not be a factor but its definitely not an advantage. Another thing, he sure didnt led montreal to an incredible season. He will be a constant 15-20 goal - 40-45 assists player when he gets close to 20 minutes of ice-time and PP time. Nice but not good enough because he doesnt bring much else to the table. Not a force in the face-off circle either. Just a nice player to have on a weak team.

That plug Armstrong also produced when he played with fine linemates. He played there because the team sucked and everybody was injured. That's what I tried to explain. How a solid player can play much better than he actually is but eventually you will finish dead last or close to that.
I so wish you would have started the thread with this kind of intelligent posting.

Keep in mind, a second line center gets about the same ice time Desharnais received as a 1st line center in Montreal because we have Plekanec. Desharnais was 45th amongst all centers in terms of Time On Ice per game last year. He only received an average of 18:23 per game. That is part of the problem with your assessment. You keep thinking that DD would get LESS TOI on a different team, but he was already playing second line minutes in Montreal, overall. I am not saying that a lot of what you just wrote is wrong, but the whole TOI thing is where most of your argument comes from and the reality is that he wouldn't get significantly less time than that on another team because that is about the average TOI that a second line center gets.

As far as points go, how many guys do you think scored 60 points last year while averaging only 18:23 per game? Let's look at the playoff teams. DD would not be a second line center on the Bruins, Kings, Canucks, Red Wings, San Jose, or Pittsburgh. He could be a 2nd line center on Chicago, NYR, Florida, Ottawa, Washington, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Phoenix, St. Louis, and Nashville. He would have been able to get 2nd line minutes around the 18:23 mark on all of those teams. On some of those playoff teams, he could be the first line center! If you have a guy who can put up 60 points on a team like Montreal, while playing 18:23 per night, there are definitely other teams he could go to and flourish. It is about putting a player in a position to succeed based on his skill set.

Look at Erik Cole. Playing with DD as his center he scored the most goals in his entire career and tied his highest point total. Pacioretty scored 33 goals! Both of those guys gave DD tons of credit for their success.

I agree that different teams use different types of centers, but even you acknowledge that teams use players with great offensive skills on the second line. A guy who gets 60 points in 18:23 of play certainly would seem to be producing at a "great offensive skills" clip. Heck, there were playoff teams last year that didn't even have a first line center that produced 60 points!

In any case. I am not saying DD is the best center in the world. I am not saying he would play top line minutes with every team in the league. I AM saying that he is a very good player who could easily play second line center on many teams in the NHL, including at least a few of the serious playoff contending teams last season.

Finally, DD was not the reason the Habs finished in 3rd worst in the NHL last year. Injuries, coaching changes, managerial problems, etc... all contributed to bring us down. I doubt many teams would do well if they lost their best defenceman and one of their leading goal scorers for almost the entire season, among other injuries we had. Remove Brown and Doughty from your roster for the season and tell me if your team would have made the playoffs. I look forward to next season so we can all see who is right about DD.

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01-05-2013, 04:23 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
He'd look good on a team like Nashville that could use some raw skill, especially if Fisher could be convinced to move to the wing where I always thought he was more effective. A Fisher-Desharnais-Hornqvist line would be no joke.
What would Nashville be willing to give up for him? A lot of Hab fans probably don't want SK back.

I think he's the type of player Nashville should be looking at. Good scoring points return on salary spent as Blind Guardien pointed out.

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01-05-2013, 04:30 PM
  #79
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What would Nashville be willing to give up for him? A lot of Hab fans probably don't want SK back.

I think he's the type of player Nashville should be looking at. Good scoring points return on salary spent as Blind Guardien pointed out.
I have no idea. While he'd look nice there, the two teams don't seem to match up well. Maybe something around Ellis?

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01-05-2013, 04:39 PM
  #80
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I have no idea. While he'd look nice there, the two teams don't seem to match up well. Maybe something around Ellis?
I would not want to trade DD, yet.

However, this being a trade section. How about something along one of these ideas:

DD + Weber for Ellis and Wilson?

DD + Weber for Ellis and 2013 1st?

Fair value, or some tweaking needed?

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01-05-2013, 04:42 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I would not want to trade DD, yet.

However, this being a trade section. How about something along one of these ideas:

DD + Weber for Ellis and Wilson?

DD + Weber for Ellis and 2013 1st?

Fair value, or some tweaking needed?
lol, I'm not a Nashvile fan but I'd think pretty hard about those deals. I'm also not very high on Ellis though.

It's interesting - both central pieces are very polarizing: undersized but highly skilled players with histories of success everywhere they've played, and a wide range of fan opinion.

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01-05-2013, 04:51 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I so wish you would have started the thread with this kind of intelligent posting.

Keep in mind, a second line center gets about the same ice time Desharnais received as a 1st line center in Montreal because we have Plekanec. Desharnais was 45th amongst all centers in terms of Time On Ice per game last year. He only received an average of 18:23 per game. That is part of the problem with your assessment. You keep thinking that DD would get LESS TOI on a different team, but he was already playing second line minutes in Montreal, overall. I am not saying that a lot of what you just wrote is wrong, but the whole TOI thing is where most of your argument comes from and the reality is that he wouldn't get significantly less time than that on another team because that is about the average TOI that a second line center gets.

As far as points go, how many guys do you think scored 60 points last year while averaging only 18:23 per game? Let's look at the playoff teams. DD would not be a second line center on the Bruins, Kings, Canucks, Red Wings, San Jose, or Pittsburgh. He could be a 2nd line center on Chicago, NYR, Florida, Ottawa, Washington, Philadelphia, New Jersey, Phoenix, St. Louis, and Nashville. He would have been able to get 2nd line minutes around the 18:23 mark on all of those teams. On some of those playoff teams, he could be the first line center! If you have a guy who can put up 60 points on a team like Montreal, while playing 18:23 per night, there are definitely other teams he could go to and flourish. It is about putting a player in a position to succeed based on his skill set.

Look at Erik Cole. Playing with DD as his center he scored the most goals in his entire career and tied his highest point total. Pacioretty scored 33 goals! Both of those guys gave DD tons of credit for their success.

I agree that different teams use different types of centers, but even you acknowledge that teams use players with great offensive skills on the second line. A guy who gets 60 points in 18:23 of play certainly would seem to be producing at a "great offensive skills" clip. Heck, there were playoff teams last year that didn't even have a first line center that produced 60 points!

In any case. I am not saying DD is the best center in the world. I am not saying he would play top line minutes with every team in the league. I AM saying that he is a very good player who could easily play second line center on many teams in the NHL, including at least a few of the serious playoff contending teams last season.

Finally, DD was not the reason the Habs finished in 3rd worst in the NHL last year. Injuries, coaching changes, managerial problems, etc... all contributed to bring us down. I doubt many teams would do well if they lost their best defenceman and one of their leading goal scorers for almost the entire season, among other injuries we had. Remove Brown and Doughty from your roster for the season and tell me if your team would have made the playoffs. I look forward to next season so we can all see who is right about DD.
You wanted arguments and now everything is wrong what I said. Of course I didnt expect anything different. We can discuss this to death but it's useless. I mean, just one sentence of mine that Desharnais didnt led the Habs to anything is countered with "DD was not the reason the Habs finished in 3rd worst in the NHL last year."

Like I said anything close to that. Like I think that poor dude was the reason. He played up to his potential, got the opportunity in Montreal, and that's about it.

You are so defensive that anything I say, even the most smallest thing, will have a negative impact on you. Now I understand what I was saying in the beginning was an asinine statement to you. I made such a bold statement when I said he was a nice player but not good enough for a playoff contender. What was I thinking.

I dont know if we should look forward to next season, he's getting traded or so ? I never denied to expect such a season from him again in a similar situation.

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01-05-2013, 04:57 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
You wanted arguments and now everything is wrong what I said. Of course I didnt expect anything different. We can discuss this to death but it's useless. I mean, just one sentence of mine that Desharnais didnt led the Habs to anything is countered with "DD was not the reason the Habs finished in 3rd worst in the NHL last year."

Like I said anything close to that. Like I think that poor dude was the reason. He played up to his potential, got the opportunity in Montreal, and that's about it.

You are so defensive that anything I say, even the most smallest thing, will have a negative impact on you. Now I understand what I was saying in the beginning was an asinine statement to you. I made such a bold statement when I said he was a nice player but not good enough for a playoff contender. What was I thinking.

I dont know if we should look forward to next season, he's getting traded or so ? I never denied to expect such a season from him again in a similar situation.
I was expecting that kind of comment and that's why, like I said early, I think we should keep DD before we trade a possible diamond, cuz this is what he could be, for garbage.

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01-05-2013, 05:13 PM
  #84
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lol, I'm not a Nashvile fan but I'd think pretty hard about those deals. I'm also not very high on Ellis though.

It's interesting - both central pieces are very polarizing: undersized but highly skilled players with histories of success everywhere they've played, and a wide range of fan opinion.
The thing is we don't have a need for Ellis with us having Markov, Kaberle, Diaz and Weber who none have much size or hitting prowess. I think if we were trading with Nashville it would be a trade involving Plekanec and Wilson.

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01-05-2013, 06:07 PM
  #85
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This trade seems fair in value

David D. and Sebatian collberg for R.O.R., jamie mcginn, and 2013 second?
seem fair?

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01-05-2013, 06:13 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
You wanted arguments and now everything is wrong what I said. Of course I didnt expect anything different. We can discuss this to death but it's useless. I mean, just one sentence of mine that Desharnais didnt led the Habs to anything is countered with "DD was not the reason the Habs finished in 3rd worst in the NHL last year."

Like I said anything close to that. Like I think that poor dude was the reason. He played up to his potential, got the opportunity in Montreal, and that's about it.

You are so defensive that anything I say, even the most smallest thing, will have a negative impact on you. Now I understand what I was saying in the beginning was an asinine statement to you. I made such a bold statement when I said he was a nice player but not good enough for a playoff contender. What was I thinking.

I dont know if we should look forward to next season, he's getting traded or so ? I never denied to expect such a season from him again in a similar situation.
There is nothing wrong with us debating something and not agreeing. The point of a discussion is to try and get the guy on the other side to understand where you are coming from. I asked you for an explanation, and when I finally received it, I was able to show you where your argument is wrong. That is why people give supporting comments and statistics to their arguments. Otherwise, why don't we each simply say "I told you so!" and end the argument there? I am not a child, and I enjoy debating and discussing all things related to hockey. If DD is not good enough to play on the second line of a contending team, I want evidence. If you provide faulty and demonstrably wrong evidence to support your argument, how is that my fault? If you claim that DD would play less time on the 2nd line of a contender, and I show you that he actually would play the same amount of time on a contender because he played second line minutes based on the average TOI as shown in the NHL, how is it my fault that you were wrong?

Nothing you have said has had a negative impact on me. I am just reading what you write and countering what you state with facts. When you state that DD didn't lead the Habs to anything last year, it sounds an awful lot like you are saying he was a big reason why they didn't get anywhere. If you are not putting the lion's share of the blame on him, why make such an obvious statement? Nobody on the Habs led the team anywhere last year. Does that mean Price would be a back-up goalie on any playoff contending team? Does it mean that Subban would only be a third pairing defenceman on a playoff contending team? The answers are both "no", and the questions themselves are silly. It is the same with the statement that DD didn't lead the Habs anywhere last year.

Try to keep up, please.

We agree that DD is a good player. Since you are unable to keep up your end of the other aspects of the argument, why don't we just agree to disagree on whether he would be a 2nd or 1st line center on a contending team since you get so offended when proven wrong...

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01-05-2013, 06:17 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by jphizzleruzbizzle View Post
This trade seems fair in value

David D. and Sebatian collberg for R.O.R., jamie mcginn, and 2013 second?
seem fair?
The value is close, but I don't see Colorado fans going for it. I don't see Timmins being good with it, either. I would have to think about it, at the least.

Edit: Colorado would laugh at us. McGinn puts the deal in our favour already. No way Colorado adds the 2nd.

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01-05-2013, 06:38 PM
  #88
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DD in a Swiss interview said that he's playing in Europe because he wants to continue improving, being at the start of his NHL career. The guy has an unmatched work ethic and got 60 points last year. His linemates praised the hell out of him. And he'd rather play wing than get traded. The guy has the CH tattoed right on his heart. No way we trade him. He's going to keep on getting better. He's a soul and heart type of player, with talent... and elite vision.

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01-05-2013, 06:38 PM
  #89
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The thing is we don't have a need for Ellis with us having Markov, Kaberle, Diaz and Weber who none have much size or hitting prowess. I think if we were trading with Nashville it would be a trade involving Plekanec and Wilson.
Of those, Only Diaz is really in any kind of long-term plan though.

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01-05-2013, 07:04 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
The value is close, but I don't see Colorado fans going for it. I don't see Timmins being good with it, either. I would have to think about it, at the least.

Edit: Colorado would laugh at us. McGinn puts the deal in our favour already. No way Colorado adds the 2nd.
True but collberg has more pottential than Mcginn and David D. IS THE MOST UNDERPAID PLAYER IN THE NHL! only 800,000????

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01-05-2013, 08:05 PM
  #91
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Of those, Only Diaz is really in any kind of long-term plan though.
The thing is I'd rather stay with DD and Diaz. If I was more sure of Tinordi and Beaulieu I might be more enthusiastic about the trade and who knows, someone like Markov might have 5 more productive years left in him.

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01-05-2013, 09:06 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by jphizzleruzbizzle View Post
This trade seems fair in value

David D. and Sebatian collberg for R.O.R., jamie mcginn, and 2013 second?
seem fair?
I'm a Habs fan who thinks the Avs get shafted in this.

DD is about equal to ROR. Edge to DD offensively and edge to ROR defensively. Collberg has a ton of skill, but may not even make the NHL. He was just drafted in the 2nd round. So basically call the Collberg - 2nd rounder a wash. McGinn is free? I'd like him back on my Sharks as well, but I'll take him for free on the Habs.

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01-06-2013, 05:08 AM
  #93
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There is nothing wrong with us debating something and not agreeing. The point of a discussion is to try and get the guy on the other side to understand where you are coming from. I asked you for an explanation, and when I finally received it, I was able to show you where your argument is wrong. That is why people give supporting comments and statistics to their arguments. Otherwise, why don't we each simply say "I told you so!" and end the argument there? I am not a child, and I enjoy debating and discussing all things related to hockey. If DD is not good enough to play on the second line of a contending team, I want evidence. If you provide faulty and demonstrably wrong evidence to support your argument, how is that my fault? If you claim that DD would play less time on the 2nd line of a contender, and I show you that he actually would play the same amount of time on a contender because he played second line minutes based on the average TOI as shown in the NHL, how is it my fault that you were wrong?

Nothing you have said has had a negative impact on me. I am just reading what you write and countering what you state with facts. When you state that DD didn't lead the Habs to anything last year, it sounds an awful lot like you are saying he was a big reason why they didn't get anywhere. If you are not putting the lion's share of the blame on him, why make such an obvious statement? Nobody on the Habs led the team anywhere last year. Does that mean Price would be a back-up goalie on any playoff contending team? Does it mean that Subban would only be a third pairing defenceman on a playoff contending team? The answers are both "no", and the questions themselves are silly. It is the same with the statement that DD didn't lead the Habs anywhere last year.

Try to keep up, please.

We agree that DD is a good player. Since you are unable to keep up your end of the other aspects of the argument, why don't we just agree to disagree on whether he would be a 2nd or 1st line center on a contending team since you get so offended when proven wrong...
Okay my arguments are wrong...and you were able to show that. I'll be darned. You just dont like what I'm saying. I think that's something different. I dont say the sky is yellow or that Elvis is still alive. I made some fair arguments. You asked for it but I should have known better after what I read from you already. We should not bet against it that he will ever turn into a similar player like Mike Richards for example. You are never going to like what I'm going to say because I'm dealing with a homer, sorry to say that. The point of a discussion is to try and get the guy on the other side to understand where you are coming from. Yeah sure buddy, what world are you living in. You compare statistics/players from other teams like its 1+1=2 and than I'm 'proven' wrong because you say so. Montreal finished close to dead last because they have DD playing prime minutes. That's not his fault only, he makes the best out of it and they line up 17 other players. I say that because you act like he's the next best thing but than they would not have picked 3rd overall in the draft. Nice player, but not very good. When they are a contender again, then Desharnais will not be playing for Montreal anymore. I've rarely seen a person being so offended and annoyed by a fair opinion from somebody else.

I didnt even list some facts somebody else did, like on-ice shooting% (10.39), offensive zone starts %, that he led all forwards in PP time/game (3:18), ranking 12th among NHL centers. Why dont you bother to respond on that.


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01-06-2013, 06:17 AM
  #94
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Habs fans insisting every team should be thrilled to have a 5' tall 1st/2nd line center is just magnificent. How's that been working out? You enjoying your tiny team?

I won't deny the kid has hockey sense, but you are out of your minds if you think anyone would want him. As soon as you guys get some decent size and skill in the middle he'll be gone.

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01-06-2013, 07:30 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
The thing is we don't have a need for Ellis with us having Markov, Kaberle, Diaz and Weber who none have much size or hitting prowess. I think if we were trading with Nashville it would be a trade involving Plekanec and Wilson.
markov isn't what he used to be and is near the end of his career. kaberle sucks. weber sucks and can't even keep the puck in the o-zone on the powerplay.

so that leaves diaz, whom i like very much. ellis would be more than welcome in montreal

as far as DD is concerned, i can guarantee you he ends up playing wing sooner than later

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01-06-2013, 08:53 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
Okay my arguments are wrong...and you were able to show that. I'll be darned. You just dont like what I'm saying. I think that's something different. I dont say the sky is yellow or that Elvis is still alive. I made some fair arguments. You asked for it but I should have known better after what I read from you already. We should not bet against it that he will ever turn into a similar player like Mike Richards for example. You are never going to like what I'm going to say because I'm dealing with a homer, sorry to say that. The point of a discussion is to try and get the guy on the other side to understand where you are coming from. Yeah sure buddy, what world are you living in. You compare statistics/players from other teams like its 1+1=2 and than I'm 'proven' wrong because you say so. Montreal finished close to dead last because they have DD playing prime minutes. That's not his fault only, he makes the best out of it and they line up 17 other players. I say that because you act like he's the next best thing but than they would not have picked 3rd overall in the draft. Nice player, but not very good. When they are a contender again, then Desharnais will not be playing for Montreal anymore. I've rarely seen a person being so offended and annoyed by a fair opinion from somebody else.

I didnt even list some facts somebody else did, like on-ice shooting% (10.39), offensive zone starts %, that he led all forwards in PP time/game (3:18), ranking 12th among NHL centers. Why dont you bother to respond on that.
Fair opinions never offend or annoy me. Statements made in ignorance with nothing to back them up, do.

I can easily reply to the OTHER guy's "statistics", and will. The funny thing will be watching you complain about how I show them to be irrelevant afterwards. I didn't dispute DD's on-ice shooting percentage because it doesn't say anything negative about the player. He is a playmaker who takes a lot of shots. Getting the puck on the net is an important aspect of the game, especially when you have a couple of power forwards to be in front of, or go crashing into, the net. His shooting percentage certainly didn't hinder Pacioretty and Cole getting over 30 goals each.

Yes, DD led his team in offensive zone start %. Did you and your buddy ever think that it was a reward for the hard work and great play making the guy has? Did it ever cross your minds that he gets those offensive zone starts because he is a point producing offensive minded player? Never mind, we both know the answer to the questions, no need to waste time actually trying to respond.

Desharnais was actually 18th amongst all centers in PP TOI/Game. He was 70th in PPTOI/Game in the entire NHL. He was 12th in Total TOI for the season because he was healthy all season, unlike a lot of the other players who would normally have received more TOI throughout an entire season. The reason he had so much TOI/G and throughout the season is also easy to understand, though:
...wait for it...
...wait for it...

because his PLAY EARNED it.

I know, I know, a SHOCKING revelation. It is ok, calm down, relax...breathe...breathe! Ok, feel better? Good. You see, in the NHL (as in most sports) if a guy is doing his job well (and DD's job is to produce points), he gets rewarded in many ways. A heart and soul player who helps his team produce points will get a lot of PP time. So, yes, DD DID have a lot of PP time.

Listen, I totally understand if you don't want to reply to the above post. I know how hard a time you have with actual facts. Just simply come back and say "DD is a nice player but no serious contending team would want him because of ..." and you will feel better about yourself in the morning. We can agree to disagree and have a nice day...

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01-06-2013, 09:09 AM
  #97
Drydenwasthebest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Generally View Post
Habs fans insisting every team should be thrilled to have a 5' tall 1st/2nd line center is just magnificent. How's that been working out? You enjoying your tiny team?

I won't deny the kid has hockey sense, but you are out of your minds if you think anyone would want him. As soon as you guys get some decent size and skill in the middle he'll be gone.
Nobody said "every team should be thrilled to have a 5' tall 1st/2nd line center", but thank you for playing the "let me make up crap" game. It was argued that there are plenty of teams that would like a 60 point producing center and examples were given. You are "out of your mind" if you think none of the teams in the NHL would want a 60 point producing offensive minded center.

We are enjoying our team very much, thanks for asking. Our team has been small for quite some time. We went to the ECF 2 years ago, and almost beat the Bruins the year after. Our size wasn't as much of a hindrance against the Bruins as injuries were that year. The year we lost to the Bruins, it was because two of our best and BIGGER players were out with injuries (Pacioretty and Markov). The year we lost to the Flyers was definitely a size issue, though, to be fair.

No worries, we have been working hard to overcome the size issue and are already a bigger team. Hope we get to play your favourite team asap...

Last year's poor season was definitely partially due to a lack of size and toughness. However, that was more about having a coach dumb enough to refuse to get a couple of guys like Prust to play against teams like the Bruins and Flyers when we needed that extra pushback. Size and skill is always going to be better than a skill without size type of scenario, but it doesn't mean all smallish players need to leave the league.

So, please, you do not need to worry about our smallish team going forward. We will be fine as soon as the next season starts.

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01-06-2013, 09:29 AM
  #98
Frolov 6'3
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I dont understand why I even discuss this with you after these two great one-liners. Good luck next season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Is DD as good as Mike Richards? No. Not yet. Can he be as good? Based on his track record, I wouldn't bet against him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
....he might end up like St. Louis, as well.

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01-06-2013, 11:02 AM
  #99
doc lafleur
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post


Lets face it, he is a nice player who got a chance on a below average team. I'm sure he will have another good season with a similar roster.

No playoff team with serious intentions is interested in David Desharnais though.
Marcel Dionne.

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01-06-2013, 02:26 PM
  #100
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
I dont understand.
That is the most valid thing you have stated thus far. We can leave it at that...


Last edited by Drydenwasthebest: 01-06-2013 at 11:14 PM.
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