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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Lockout VII: I've walked for miles, my feet are hurting

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01-05-2013, 04:40 PM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
That makes no sense. You say players are sacrifiying money to get the best contract? What is that "best contract"? It has to be worth more than the money they have lost so far, unless you value the contract rights to be more valuable than money lost, which in turn says PA favors one group of players (players with contracts) over others.

Greedy billionaires? That's rich, I guess you're greedy when you don't want to lose money.
1. Owners aren't losing money. Owners know how to make a $5M loss turn into a gain.
2. You don't see it making sense because you don't want it to.

It's not all about the money. It's about not being dictated to.

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01-05-2013, 04:47 PM
  #302
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Yup. Fact is the NFL has been # 1 since the NFL created the Super Bowl. I have argued against this fact in the past only to be proven wrong.
MLB held on for a few years in the 1970s. The 1975 World Series (Boston and Cincinnati) was enormously compelling, and the resurgence of the Yankees in the late-1970s helped as well. The choking NFL defenses of 1974-77 also artificially hindered that league as well.

But for the most part, the NFL had overtaken MLB by 1970.

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01-05-2013, 04:49 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1. Owners aren't losing money. Owners know how to make a $5M loss turn into a gain.

2. You don't see it making sense because you don't want it to.

It's not all about the money. It's about not being dictated to.
Really? How?

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01-05-2013, 04:54 PM
  #304
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Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice

Repeat, the CBA is not done. Just hearing that they've agreed on the number of years 10-years with opt out after Year 8.


Huge.

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01-05-2013, 04:55 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I disagree on all points and I like to back up my arguments with facts not opinions.

For instance individual point totals in the NHL have gone down in the past 30 years due to the improved ability of NHL goalies, the improved technology and increase in sheer size of goalie equipment, and the adaption of defensive styled hockey not because the talent pool in the NHL is watered down due to the salary cap and league wide parity.

As an opinion I would argue that individual point totals in the NHL are down because the overall talent level in the NHL has drastically increased over the past 30 years and that the 4th liner in today's NHL is light years ahead of the 4th liner in the 1980's.
I didn't the talent had been water down. It's been spread out. Now everyone has the same amount of crappy players. Don't bring up the goalies. Anyone here can tell you I'm against the michelin man pads, but this is a trap argument, because you would probably be against making the nets bigger which is the only way that would be solved. As for defensive hockey, because of the spread of players everyone plays some form of it now. Tell me the ratings this year for the playoffs. In the US they sucked.

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01-05-2013, 04:56 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1. Owners aren't losing money. Owners know how to make a $5M loss turn into a gain.
2. You don't see it making sense because you don't want it to.

It's not all about the money. It's about not being dictated to.
Actually, it's about money.

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01-05-2013, 05:00 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1. Owners aren't losing money. Owners know how to make a $5M loss turn into a gain.
2. You don't see it making sense because you don't want it to.

It's not all about the money. It's about not being dictated to.
Answer the question please, what is the "best contract" PA is negotiating for? Don't try to change the topic.

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01-05-2013, 05:10 PM
  #308
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They did? According to the reports players will still pay for their pensios.

So what is this huge move you talk about?
I'm pretty sure that pensions have always counted towards the players share (as do other benefits).

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01-05-2013, 05:13 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1. Owners aren't losing money. Owners know how to make a $5M loss turn into a gain.
Prove that statement. You can't. By all reports (Forbes, reporters, NHL/team comments/releases, etc) a good chunk of teams are losing money. [Mod]


Last edited by Killion: 01-05-2013 at 05:28 PM. Reason: easy there...
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01-05-2013, 05:13 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
As for defensive hockey, because of the spread of players everyone plays some form of it now. Tell me the ratings this year for the playoffs. In the US they sucked.
Makes no sense. NHL was more defensive from 95 to 2005 than it was during the last the CBA even when we had more teams & more players.

2011 finals were the most watched NHL finals in US since 1973.

I guess league went horribly defensive & watered down in one year.

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01-05-2013, 05:22 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1. Owners aren't losing money. Owners know how to make a $5M loss turn into a gain.
2. You don't see it making sense because you don't want it to.

It's not all about the money. It's about not being dictated to.
1. Wrong, just really wrong, that's not how accounting works.
2. It doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense.

I mean, it's a labor negotiation, it's pretty much about money.

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01-05-2013, 05:23 PM
  #312
Melrose Munch
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The ratings last were terrible. And the teams are the same as before the lockout just that all the teams have the same amount of bad players.

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01-05-2013, 05:29 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It doesn't. It screws with the game itself and punishes the most loyal, largest supporters. I absolutely, completely and utterly reject your belief that it "makes everybody better off".

You are, of course, free to feel that way...
Guess what? Championships shouldn't be determined by who has the "most loyal" fans. That rather defeats the whole point of on-field sporting competition now doesn't it?

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01-05-2013, 05:31 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The ratings last were terrible. And the teams are the same as before the lockout just that all the teams have the same amount of bad players.
The teams involved had a bit to do with the bad rating last year.

LA has a big market, but isn't exposed to the casual fan nearly enough (Which is the NHL's own damn fault) and NJ isn't big to the casual fan either.

Plus I think NYR getting ousted by NJ the round before kinda hurt the local market for NJ too.

If the NHL plays their cards right, they should bounce back. Chicago and Detroit aren't making a trip to the Finals within the next two years, so it's about time the league start putting some muscle behind St. Louis and the Kings. (Who I think have a great chance at going back to the Finals again)

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01-05-2013, 05:32 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
The NFL got its first major tv contract with far fewer teams than the NHL has now.

The NFL was also a second-tier league at that time.
That was also 40 years ago when ALL sports leagues were much smaller. The scale of economics has grown enormously since then.

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01-05-2013, 05:34 PM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Prove that statement. You can't. By all reports (Forbes, reporters, NHL/team comments/releases, etc) a good chunk of teams are losing money. [Mod]
You can't prove it, but when the Blackhawks claim they are losing money I smell a skunk, and a big one at that.

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01-05-2013, 05:36 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by TKB View Post
You can't prove it, but when the Blackhawks claim they are losing money I smell a skunk, and a big one at that.
According to Forbes the Blackhawks made $20M last year...

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01-05-2013, 05:38 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Not even close. Mid-70s, if not earlier, is when the NFL surpassed Major League Baseball in terms of overall popularity by just about every measurable statistic.

That's about as fake of a stat as when people still try to claim that the NHL was poised to overtake the NBA because of a magazine cover even though nothing within even came remotely close to saying that.
Yeah, I already had that go around over the NFL's popularity versus baseball. I was alive and aware back in the '70s when the NFL passed MLB and remember the broohaha surrounding it. People want to rewrite history when there are still people around who lived through it and know better.

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01-05-2013, 05:42 PM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
According to Forbes the Blackhawks made $20M last year...
Which is pure speculation on their part. More often wrong than right, extremely unfortunate that their the only source for numbers, and although, God Bless them they try, basing the formulation of ones opinion on what they provide is folly. Chicago, the Wirtz family, the Norris clan before them including Bruce in Detroit, absolutely notorious subversives; Fiction Farmers.

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01-05-2013, 05:42 PM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
According to Forbes the Blackhawks made $20M last year...
I am not familiar with how Forbes put their numbers together, but some time in the last year Rocky Wirtz was quoted in an article (I'll try and find it again) that they weren't making money.

He was also quoted in Chi Tribune after cup win that they were in the red.

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01-05-2013, 05:43 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by MrLouniverse View Post
1. Wrong, just really wrong, that's not how accounting works.
2. It doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense.

I mean, it's a labor negotiation, it's pretty much about money.
Team "A" loses $10 mil a year.
Holding company that owns arena (also owned by team "A" owner) makes $20 mil a year.

That's how NHL accounting works.

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01-05-2013, 05:43 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Makes no sense. NHL was more defensive from 95 to 2005 than it was during the last the CBA even when we had more teams & more players.

2011 finals were the most watched NHL finals in US since 1973.

I guess league went horribly defensive & watered down in one year.
Why are you using 2011 numbers? You have the first place team in the league for 2011, which everyone but us the fans hate, and you have the Bruins an original 6. Of course it's the most watched finals.

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01-05-2013, 05:44 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Which is pure speculation on their part. More often wrong than right, extremely unfortunate that their the only source for numbers, and although, God Bless them they try, basing the formulation of ones opinion on what they provide is folly. Chicago, the Wirtz family, the Norris clan before them including Bruce in Detroit, absolutely notorious subversives; Fiction Farmers.
I doubt they're spot on with their numbers, but I would assume the Hawks make good money now.

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01-05-2013, 05:47 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by stuffradio View Post
Why are you using 2011 numbers? You have the first place team in the league for 2011, which everyone but us the fans hate, and you have the Bruins an original 6. Of course it's the most watched finals.
I think most people were expecting it to have poor numbers in the U.S. due to it being a Canadian team involved.

It was a disaster when Ottawa was in the Finals. Granted, it was against Anaheim.

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01-05-2013, 05:47 PM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
The teams involved had a bit to do with the bad rating last year.

LA has a big market, but isn't exposed to the casual fan nearly enough (Which is the NHL's own damn fault) and NJ isn't big to the casual fan either.

Plus I think NYR getting ousted by NJ the round before kinda hurt the local market for NJ too.

If the NHL plays their cards right, they should bounce back. Chicago and Detroit aren't making a trip to the Finals within the next two years, so it's about time the league start putting some muscle behind St. Louis and the Kings. (Who I think have a great chance at going back to the Finals again)
NJ should have brought a large audience IMO. NHL knows the writing is on the wall and NBC will keep playing the big markets during the regular season. No west coast Winter classics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Which is pure speculation on their part. More often wrong than right, extremely unfortunate that their the only source for numbers, and although, God Bless them they try, basing the formulation of ones opinion on what they provide is folly. Chicago, the Wirtz family, the Norris clan before them including Bruce in Detroit, absolutely notorious subversives; Fiction Farmers.
I thought Chicago lost money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stuffradio View Post
Why are you using 2011 numbers? You have the first place team in the league for 2011, which everyone but us the fans hate, and you have the Bruins an original 6. Of course it's the most watched finals.
Because it makes his arguement look pretty. Last year was average although as wings fan said teams didn't help anything.

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