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Marcel Dionne vs. Teemu Selanne

View Poll Results: Which player was better?
Marcel Dionne 49 57.65%
Teemu Selanne 36 42.35%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:57 AM
  #101
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Even if Clarke had lost all three of those Harts to Orr (like you say, he should have lost 2 of them), to me it wouldn't make me think any less of him or his resume. It's Orr. If you're a runner up to him, that's as good as a Hart in my mind. It's a special circumstance.
More special than losing to Wayne?

Or Gordie?

What about post 90's with Europeans and US guys making up alot of the top end talent?

See where this leads to.

Maybe it's just me but being in the mix for any particular award gets underrated here while winning can get overrated.

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01-03-2013, 04:04 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Even if Clarke had lost all three of those Harts to Orr (like you say, he should have lost 2 of them), to me it wouldn't make me think any less of him or his resume. It's Orr. If you're a runner up to him, that's as good as a Hart in my mind. It's a special circumstance.
I kind of feel the same. Like, Selanne would have one Art Ross without Lemieux.

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01-03-2013, 06:11 AM
  #103
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Marcel Dionne.Except for the playoffs I think Dionne was more of an offensive power than Selanne.


Last edited by Jafar: 01-03-2013 at 06:52 AM.
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01-05-2013, 12:04 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
What elite seasons did Kariya have without Selanne? Not that Kariya wasn't an elite talent, better than Simmer, but he didn't really stand out, for whatever reason, without Selanne on the other wing. With Selanne, he finished first among Canadians in points in '99, second in '00 and second to Lemieux in '97.
Was still a 2nd team all-star as late as 2003, more or less on his own. No it wasn't his best year by any means, but the point I was making is that Kariya benefitted from Selanne more or less the same either way while Simmer was clearly the bigger beneficiary of playing with Dionne.

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You just brought it up, but I don't fully agree with you. Yes, it was easier from '02-'04, because the stars of the 90s were older and the DPE was so brutal from an injury standpoint that most of them were no longer in peak form. When Count Bettman didn't enforce the rules, players got held, hooked, slashed, charged, etc. and (with help from other factors) scoring decreased. Don't confuse low point totals in DPE with lack of talent. If you want an era without depth of scoring talent, like '02-'04, it was the Espo era, when players like Clarke and Ratelle were often the strongest competition. Selanne's prime was mainly ~'93-'01 and there was plenty of competition during that time. It may not have been the strongest era for Canadian forwards, but the increased talent from the US and overseas made the Canadian forwards appear weaker than they really were. Maybe non-Canadians wouldn't have been much additional competition in the 70s, but they were in the 90s and are to this day, and that's all that matters in Selanne's case.
You brought up Esposito's heyday as a weaker time for forwards but it doesn't really coincide much with Dionne's best years. His first big breakthrough was 1974-'75. The talent was certainly there in the NHL at that time and look at a team like the 1976 Canada Cup. That was basically the NHL superstars at the time. You can't tell me that isn't some elite talent. Canada did take a dive since then and it showed in the late 1990s during Selanne's prime. I don't know if the fact that some European countries and the odd American got better and it pushed more Canadians out or if we were just in a bit of a lull in producing more top end players but either way it is probably a combination of both. What that means is that Selanne had different competition from other parts of the world and not necessarily better competition. Not if you look at the names of the players in the NHL during each player's prime. But my point was that if there was an era to pick when the weakest group of forwards existed (just during Selanne or Dionne's primes) then the late 1990s is that time. Sure Ziggy Palffy was from Slovakia and not Montreal but that's not the point. The top end talent was still the top end talent regardless of era. I will reiterate that if you are digging this much to make a case for Selanne than you are trying to hard to justify his argument. It shouldn't be this tough. Dionne just stood out for longer and at a higher peak, even in a Wayne Gretzky led NHL.

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01-05-2013, 05:06 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Canada did take a dive since then and it showed in the late 1990s during Selanne's prime. I don't know if the fact that some European countries and the odd American got better and it pushed more Canadians out or if we were just in a bit of a lull in producing more top end players but either way it is probably a combination of both. What that means is that Selanne had different competition from other parts of the world and not necessarily better competition. Not if you look at the names of the players in the NHL during each player's prime. But my point was that if there was an era to pick when the weakest group of forwards existed (just during Selanne or Dionne's primes) then the late 1990s is that time. Sure Ziggy Palffy was from Slovakia and not Montreal but that's not the point. The top end talent was still the top end talent regardless of era. I will reiterate that if you are digging this much to make a case for Selanne than you are trying to hard to justify his argument. It shouldn't be this tough. Dionne just stood out for longer and at a higher peak, even in a Wayne Gretzky led NHL.
I'm just trying to create a more level field for comparison, although it's never close to exactly equal, even from one season to the next. I think Selanne's prime ('93-'00) was tremendously competitive for finishes in goals/points, one of the most competitive eras in history IMO, only obscured by the Gretzky/Lemieux era directly preceding it (and Lemieux was at/near his peak those years he was healthy, while Gretzky was still a factor most years as well, although not close to his peak). It looks we'll have to agree to disagree, yet again.

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01-05-2013, 07:29 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I'm just trying to create a more level field for comparison, although it's never close to exactly equal, even from one season to the next. I think Selanne's prime ('93-'00) was tremendously competitive for finishes in goals/points, one of the most competitive eras in history IMO, only obscured by the Gretzky/Lemieux era directly preceding it (and Lemieux was at/near his peak those years he was healthy, while Gretzky was still a factor most years as well, although not close to his peak). It looks we'll have to agree to disagree, yet again.
Well that's fine, we can disagree here. But Lemieux retired in 1997. Gretzky was a couple of years away from retirement at this time. Lindros was always injured. The NHL is still always the NHL, but the late 1990s/early 2000s were a strange time for forwards. In general you'll see on here that some of the weakest years for forwards were right at that time (1998, 2000, 2002, 2004). It was a lot of things, a bit of a transition for top end talent, some nagging injuries to several star players that caused them to miss parts of seasons. It wasn't that it still wasn't difficult to lead the NHL in a category, but I just don't see how Selanne's era was harder than Dionne's. Even if you want to consider them equal, Dionne was still more regarded by his peers.

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01-05-2013, 08:27 PM
  #107
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talent pool

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
The NHL is still always the NHL, but the late 1990s/early 2000s were a strange time for forwards..
10 best (career points) canadien skaters who started their career at 70ís , 80ís and 90ís. how many (current or future) HOFís ? how many TOP 50 skaters?

each group should be about equal UNLESS something has gone seriously wrong with junior couching.

there are no "strange" times when there are some half a million registered hockey players in canada. its statistically impossible. last group is underrated OR first 2 groups are SEVERELY overrated..

BTW: selanne for me over any last group player..
--------------------70------------------------------
Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Marcel Dionne
Ray Bourque
Bryan Trottier
Guy Lafleur
Mike Gartner
Gilbert Perreault
Michel Goulet
Bernard Federko
----------------------80-----------------
Ron Francis
Steve Yzerman
Mario Lemieux
Joe Sakic
Mark Recchi
Paul Coffey
Adam Oates
Doug Gilmour
Dale Hawerchuk
Luc Robitaille
---------------------90--------------
Joe Thornton
Jarome Iginla
Ray Whitney
Paul Kariya
Jason Arnott
Owen Nolan
Eric Lindros
Martin St Louis
Vincent Lecavalier
Patrick Marleau
---------------------------------------


Last edited by steveott: 01-05-2013 at 08:39 PM.
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01-06-2013, 01:08 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by steveott View Post
10 best (career points) canadien skaters who started their career at 70ís , 80ís and 90ís. how many (current or future) HOFís ? how many TOP 50 skaters?

each group should be about equal UNLESS something has gone seriously wrong with junior couching.

there are no "strange" times when there are some half a million registered hockey players in canada. its statistically impossible. last group is underrated OR first 2 groups are SEVERELY overrated..

BTW: selanne for me over any last group player..
--------------------70------------------------------
Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Marcel Dionne
Ray Bourque
Bryan Trottier
Guy Lafleur
Mike Gartner
Gilbert Perreault
Michel Goulet
Bernard Federko
----------------------80-----------------
Ron Francis
Steve Yzerman
Mario Lemieux
Joe Sakic
Mark Recchi
Paul Coffey
Adam Oates
Doug Gilmour
Dale Hawerchuk
Luc Robitaille
---------------------90--------------
Joe Thornton
Jarome Iginla
Ray Whitney
Paul Kariya
Jason Arnott
Owen Nolan
Eric Lindros
Martin St Louis
Vincent Lecavalier
Patrick Marleau
---------------------------------------
I think it is a little less simple than this. There have always been great players in the NHL and always will. There is never an easy time to win a major award in the NHL. Period. However, it has been brought up that Dionne would have had an easier time standing out in certain seasons in his career and I pointed out that this is simply not true.

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01-06-2013, 09:55 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think it is a little less simple than this. There have always been great players in the NHL and always will. There is never an easy time to win a major award in the NHL. Period. However, it has been brought up that Dionne would have had an easier time standing out in certain seasons in his career and I pointed out that this is simply not true.
If you take a look at the top 5 players in scoring each year since expansion...

These seasons have the lowest average for the top 3 adjusted point seasons of each player:

1976 97
2012 98
2011 99
1977 100
1978 102
2003 104
2004 104
2002 105
2010 105
1979 106
2009 107
2001 107
2007 108
2008 110

We can see the three weakest periods appear to be '76-'79, '01-'04 and '07-'12.

(Note: The more recent seasons have players still active, and that could change the order some, but probably not much. The most extreme example is likely Giroux in 2012, whose top 3 seasons only average to 78 adj. points. Even if he repeated his 103 adj. points in 2012 twice more, his then 103 avg. would only bring up the avg. for the top 5 to 103 instead of 98, or 5th lowest instead of 2nd lowest.)

Which players in the top 5 had the lowest average for their top 3 adjusted point seasons?

1977 YoungT 70
1989 BrownR 71
1979 MacMillan 73
2012 Giroux* 78
1970 Tkaczuk 78
1974 Cashman 79
1976 Barber 81
1991 Cullen 81
1976 Larouche 82
1983 Pederson 83
1972 Hadfield 83
1970 Goyette 84
1981 Taylor 85
1995 Zhamnov 86
1980 Rogers 86
1977 Shutt 86
2009 PariseZ* 87
2011 Perry* 87
1982 Maruk 88
1973 MacLeish 89
1977 MacLeish 89
1984 Goulet 89
1978 Potvin 90
1973 Lemaire 90
1978 Lemaire 90
2001 Straka 90
2010 BackstromN* 91
1981 Nilsson 91
1994 Roenick 91

*still active

There are some that could be considered around the time of Selanne's prime:

- Zhamnov in 1995, who may have not been top 5 if not for a shortened season, and that was Selanne's 10th best season.

- Perry in 2011, who is still playing, and that was Selanne's 9th best adjusted point season.

- Roenick in '94, the year after Selanne's fantastic rookie season, the last player on this list.

Meanwhile, there is at least one player in each season from '73-'84, which almost exactly matches Dionne's prime. 18 of the 29 seasons on the list occurred during Dionne's career, and 14 of those are from '75-'85, which was basically Dionne's prime. Meanwhile only 7 seasons on the list were during Selanne's longer career, and none during his peak years (as shown above, there are only a couple that are arguably during his prime).

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01-07-2013, 01:27 PM
  #110
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Excellent way to look at it, CYM!

And it makes perfect sense, too... from 1976-1979, the NHL was more watered down than ever before, with 18 of the 28 "top" pro teams, and with arguably 10 of the "potential" top 30 scorers in the world in Europe.

I think 2007-2012 is a pretty strong period, though, and history will absolve it.

'01 - '04... yeah, it was a pretty bad time. But also, that wasn't when Selanne was at his best, racking up high finishes. So it didn't really affect him.

Not that I am over to the Selanne side, but you are definitely making the better points here.

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01-07-2013, 03:00 PM
  #111
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Excellent way to look at it, CYM!

And it makes perfect sense, too... from 1976-1979, the NHL was more watered down than ever before, with 18 of the 28 "top" pro teams, and with arguably 10 of the "potential" top 30 scorers in the world in Europe.

I think 2007-2012 is a pretty strong period, though, and history will absolve it.

'01 - '04... yeah, it was a pretty bad time. But also, that wasn't when Selanne was at his best, racking up high finishes. So it didn't really affect him.

Not that I am over to the Selanne side, but you are definitely making the better points here.
Thanks. It seems pretty obvious to me, even if some want to hide their heads in the sand in deny it. It's only less obvious due to the more recent additional competition obscuring the strength of the era (e.g., by hurting every player's rankings in each season).

I mostly agree with you about '07-'12. First, the '07-'10 seasons generally aren't as weak as the other two periods, nor as '11 & '12:

'11 & '12: 98.3
'76-'79: 101.3
'01-'04: 105.0
'07-'10: 107.6

As already mentioned, there are still players from each of the more recent seasons, who are not only active but likely to increase their average of best 3 adjusted years:

'07- Crosby
'08- Malkin
'09- Malkin, Crosby, Parise
'10- Crosby, Backstrom, Stamkos
'11- Perry, Stamkos
'12- Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux

The other active players (even the Sedins and Spezza) are not likely to significantly improve the average of their best 3 seasons. It would take a 15 point increase over their third best year to increase their average 5 points, which would increase the average for that year's top 5 by 1 point. I would guess '09 & '12 have the largest chance of a significant increase, followed by '10 & '11. The third best seasons of Parise (76), Backstrom (74), Perry (74), and especially Giroux (50) are each ripe for substantial improvement. Still, it's going to be difficult for '11 & '12 to climb too far from the bottom.

2011 is a particularly weak top 5: the Sedins, St. Louis, Stamkos and Perry. St. Louis has the best 3-season average of the top 5 at 106, although Stamkos could improve his 103 average. The only seasons since expansion that might be comparable in that respect are '04 (St. Louis at 106, Naslund 105... Sakic 117 but really no longer in peak form) and '94 (Oates at 106 and an older Gretzky).

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01-08-2013, 10:03 PM
  #112
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I think there comes a time when you are overanalyzing things a bit too much. I believe that thread is one of them. You are relying too much on the adjusted stats here. That last post may have been a lot of work but when you're trying that hard to make a point then something is amiss.

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