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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

God forbid Canada should think they're the best

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Old
01-06-2013, 12:50 PM
  #51
Sokil
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Grading quality of a nation's sport off of tournament play is stupid at the end of the day. In baseball, Japan > USA. Does that even make sense?

it's a tournament, its fun to see the best vs the best in a short series of games, but it means nothing, jesus

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01-06-2013, 12:50 PM
  #52
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Old
01-06-2013, 12:52 PM
  #53
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What was the purpose of this thread?

Are you still that upset about losing?

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01-06-2013, 12:52 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by YARR123 View Post
This Don Cherry BS is really catching on isn't it... Look at rosters of USA, Sweden and Russia. Count how many of the players play in the CHL. And then find out what kind of a % the players have played in Canada and got Canadian coaching. The effect of Canadian junior leagues on these teams in marginal at best.

It's incredibly self centered to think it's Canada that made all the other countries improve.

I've posted this in another thread, but other countries, mainly usa hockey, should give canada hockey gratitude. Usa hockey was in shambles in the late 90s, early 00s. To turn it around, they almost took word for word hockey canadas development program and copied it. Usa hockey won't argue this fact. So the results you see now from US hockey is a direct result of this program. Other euro nations have also taken canadian coaches and directors to rebuild their programs, fact (look at swiss with krueger as one example). Yes it would be foolish to not allow any imports into the chl, but not realizing that the canadian development program is one of the major reasons some nations are doing well is a travesty.

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01-06-2013, 12:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by lakai17 View Post
Canada 42
Russia 32
Sweden 17
United States 13
Finland 9
Czech Republic 7
Slovakia 1
Switzerland 1

What do the WJC's played 10-20 years ago say about the condition of different countries development systems today? Not so much. I think looking back anywhere from 4-8 years should tell us a lot more.

Canada have a much deeper talent pool to dig from than anybody else, as hockey is the #1 sport in Canada and it's not anywhere else on the planet. And you have also got a pretty big population, at least compared to Sweden, Finland, Czech, Slovakia and the Swiss. That helps. This means that as long as your development system is ok, you will always be the best or amongst the best. Last 5 years or so, I would say that Sweden's and USA's development systems are at least just as good as Canada's. Sweden's and USA's depth have been good enough to form very competitive teams every year these last 5 years and given that a roster only can have 22 players, Canada will sometimes not have the best team on either paper or on the ice. It's just the way things are at the moment.

But don't worry, as long as somebody's development system aren't clearly better than Canada's, you will win again sooner or later. Right now you are amongst the best, but not THE best. You do have the best depth though, that's for sure. But anything else would be a failure considering your deep talent pool.

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01-06-2013, 12:53 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
6 finals 4 cups multiple 1st overall finishes in 17 years ya they qualify as the model franchise
You're completely missing his point.

So what if they're the "model franchise?" People care more about who the best is at the moment. Just because the Red Wings are the model franchise doesn't mean they're the best right now. Being the best > being a model franchise.

All people care about is who won. Recently.

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01-06-2013, 12:54 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by marty 4 hart View Post
People are crazy if they think that the americans are better than Canada. Canada is still the team to beat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iC6CSsnWkA cy@

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otr2dmIUgMY cy@

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjiAHCbjaQw cy@

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBq6AnslirQ cy@

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01-06-2013, 12:55 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by RollTheBones109 View Post
Is this supposed to mean something regarding Canada's status as the team to beat?
If you haven't won in 4 years, no, you are not.

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01-06-2013, 12:57 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Since the RedWings have won the most Cups in the last 20 years, they are obviously the best team now.
So your argument is that Canada isn't the best "team" anymore? Can you define a team at the national level? Is it the Olympics? The WJC? The under-17? Women's hockey? What constitutes a team at the national level when year-over-year and tournment-over-tournament the rosters are vastly different?

The discussion should be whether or not Canada still produces the best talent on the whole, or whether the talent gap been diminished. I don't believe the WJC can be the measuring stick.

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01-06-2013, 01:00 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by marty 4 hart View Post
Canada>>>USA. AINEC.
yes. fine. enjoy. its that fact that makes usa winning two of the past four tournaments and driving the olympic team to near insanity with a win and a gold medal game to OT in vancouver all the more sweet. and it is...sweet.

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01-06-2013, 01:01 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by B Boarding View Post
What do the WJC's played 10-20 years ago say about the condition of different countries development systems today? Not so much. I think looking back anywhere from 4-8 years should tell us a lot more.

Canada have a much deeper talent pool to dig from than anybody else, as hockey is the #1 sport in Canada and it's not anywhere else on the planet. And you have also got a pretty big population, at least compared to Sweden, Finland, Czech, Slovakia and the Swiss. That helps. This means that as long as your development system is ok, you will always be the best or amongst the best. Last 5 years or so, I would say that Sweden's and USA's development systems are at least just as good as Canada's. Sweden's and USA's depth have been good enough to form very competitive teams every year these last 5 years and given that a roster only can have 22 players, Canada will sometimes not have the best team on either paper or on the ice. It's just the way things are at the moment.

But don't worry, as long as somebody's development system aren't clearly better than Canada's, you will win again sooner or later. Right now you are amongst the best, but not THE best. You do have the best depth though, that's for sure. But anything else would be a failure considering your deep talent pool.

Nope sorry you don't get to arbitrarily decide how many years are relevant.

Canada will always go into international tournaments as the favourites.

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01-06-2013, 01:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
Nope sorry you don't get to arbitrarily decide how many years are relevant.

Canada will always go into international tournaments as the favourites.
How is that arbitrary? It's a much better indicator of current quality than considering two decades.

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01-06-2013, 01:04 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
Canada will always go into international tournaments as the favourites.
yes, its the fee, figh, foe, fum theory

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01-06-2013, 01:08 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
If you haven't won in 4 years, no, you are not.
I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. Canada has been the most consistently good team at this tournament for the entire lifespan of many posters here.

Ask most experts who the team to beat is at most WJHC tournaments and Canada is usually mentioned (at least as a co-team to beat).

Granted, they've faltered the last two years (I don't consider silver medals as proof that they aren't the team to beat, given that they literally had to be beaten for a team to win gold - "team to beat"), but I'm sure next year they'll be at least co-favourites again.

If this doesn't say 'team to beat', I don't know what does. Agree to disagree, I guess.

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Old
01-06-2013, 01:08 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
You're completely missing his point.

So what if they're the "model franchise?" People care more about who the best is at the moment. Just because the Red Wings are the model franchise doesn't mean they're the best right now. Being the best > being a model franchise.

All people care about is who won. Recently.
Exactly. I didn't even touch the fact that Detroit being the model franchise based on 17 years of history does nothing to support the idea that Canada is still the best team despite recent WJC performances. WJ teams aren't franchises.

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01-06-2013, 01:09 PM
  #66
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When you assemble the best hockey teams from each country... Canada is at the same level as Russia, Sweden, USA, Finland, and a few others in terms of being able to all beat eachother..sure they're still going to be the best on paper... But where Canada is clearly the best is in there depth.... You could make a Canada b,c and d teams that could all compete. But OP you sound salty, it's not a good look to bring up stats from 20 years ago, you're being insecure.

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01-06-2013, 01:09 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
Nope sorry you don't get to arbitrarily decide how many years are relevant.

Canada will always go into international tournaments as the favourites.
What are you talking about? The junior tournaments are best used to determine the current status of hockey development and the future status of hockey talent. If you take a sample size of the last 5 years of juniors, Canada has not been any better than the US or Sweden. That probably means in 10 years, Canada will not hold the advantage internationally that they do now. There are rinks being built in areas where hockey couldn't be played every year in the United States. The fact that Canada has cold weather will not longer provide the advantage that it does today. It's probably just because our population size is larger but the US will inevitably catch Canada, probably sometime in the next 15 years.

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Old
01-06-2013, 01:10 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by B Boarding View Post
What do the WJC's played 10-20 years ago say about the condition of different countries development systems today? Not so much. I think looking back anywhere from 4-8 years should tell us a lot more.

Canada have a much deeper talent pool to dig from than anybody else, as hockey is the #1 sport in Canada and it's not anywhere else on the planet. And you have also got a pretty big population, at least compared to Sweden, Finland, Czech, Slovakia and the Swiss. That helps. This means that as long as your development system is ok, you will always be the best or amongst the best. Last 5 years or so, I would say that Sweden's and USA's development systems are at least just as good as Canada's. Sweden's and USA's depth have been good enough to form very competitive teams every year these last 5 years and given that a roster only can have 22 players, Canada will sometimes not have the best team on either paper or on the ice. It's just the way things are at the moment.

But don't worry, as long as somebody's development system aren't clearly better than Canada's, you will win again sooner or later. Right now you are amongst the best, but not THE best. You do have the best depth though, that's for sure. But anything else would be a failure considering your deep talent pool.
I can agree with this. I think it is a fine summation of the current situation.

Although it is worth noting that I don't think any country has taken the title of 'the best'. It has simply been taken from Canada and split between the other nations and Canada.

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Old
01-06-2013, 01:14 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by RollTheBones109 View Post
I can agree with this. I think it is a fine summation of the current situation.

Although it is worth noting that I don't think any country has taken the title of 'the best'. It has simply been taken from Canada and split between the other nations and Canada.
Which is a good thing. There was a time around 2008-2009 when I was bored by the WJCs because no one ever beat Canada.

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01-06-2013, 01:17 PM
  #70
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Canada produces the most talent. Talent doesn't necessarily give you the best teams all the time.

I've noticed that the past few years the Canadian teams have just lacked heart. No work-ethic. I don't know if its because all of them are clumped together and suddenly expected to gell or just because their heads are too big. But it needs to be addressed.

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01-06-2013, 01:17 PM
  #71
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Damn I'm ashamed of some of the gross reactions by some Canadians to the world juniors. Easily the worst losers.

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01-06-2013, 01:18 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by RollTheBones109 View Post
Although it is worth noting that I don't think any country has taken the title of 'the best'. It has simply been taken from Canada and split between the other nations and Canada.

True.

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01-06-2013, 01:26 PM
  #73
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All this whining must make it even sweeter for the Americans.
Cos, you know... They thrashed them 5-1 and then won the Gold.



Man, most Canadian fans are like most English football fans.
Utterly obnoxious.

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01-06-2013, 01:32 PM
  #74
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All this whining must make it even sweeter for the Americans.
Cos, you know... They thrashed them 5-1 and then won the Gold.



Man, most Canadian fans are like most English football fans.
Utterly obnoxious.
Blame TSN for that.

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01-06-2013, 01:44 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Corto View Post
All this whining must make it even sweeter for the Americans.
Cos, you know... They thrashed them 5-1 and then won the Gold.



Man, most Canadian fans are like most English football fans.
Utterly obnoxious.
Well, I think some Canadian fans are maybe a little bit "spoiled" and having a hard time growing past that, but ultimately aren't intrinsically "obnoxious", not yet anyway. Hope that's true, anyway.

I agree that 10-20 years ago doesn't matter anymore. Well, history matters, in a certain sense. But doesn't have any bearing on who is best *today* nor predict the future. Habs and Oilers and Islanders had great dynasties. That's nice for fans of those teams to look back on. But look where they are in the last NHL standings, for example. Things change. Other nations have great junior programs, the Russians have gone through a pretty good re-organization of their hockey structure, and they and USA have huge populations they could tap into, USA is getting more players from that population than ever before. With Canada and Sweden they form a contending foursome and I don't see any team above any other overall, save for the obvious ranking formed from a given tournament results. Canada beat USA and Russia in the round robin. Those teams beat them later when it mattered most. Sweden played without all those key players in Zibanejad, Brodin, Klefbom, etc and still got silver. It's anybody's tournament heading in, then just see who comes up big, gels, etc past that and who doesn't. It's cool for hockey.

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