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No More Lockout Blues! - 2012 Lockout Part 2 [UPD: AGREEMENT REACHED!]

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01-06-2013, 05:22 PM
  #951
Tintin's Ghost
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Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
Industrial Relations disputes are typically not personal (Unless you include the old Mining Strikes, but this is 2013 Manitoba, not 1912 West Virginia).

I wonder what people thought about Ted Lindsay, did they call him a greedy pig?
I agree with your point but not the Ted Lindsey example. That day an age there really were not any benefits for the players. The disparity between owners and players was much greater and no safety net for the players who were injured and had their careers ended.

Ted Lindsay stood up like a man and deserves a lot of credit. Ron Hainsey is no Ted Lindsay. Heck, he can't even carry Lindsay's jock strap.

Hainsey whined to the media. He yelled at owners during the meetings. He certainly was a happy warrior for the NHLPA but he comes across a stooge in the process. Don't think he deserves any credit for getting a deal done.

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01-06-2013, 05:51 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Tintin's Ghost View Post
I agree with your point but not the Ted Lindsey example. That day an age there really were not any benefits for the players. The disparity between owners and players was much greater and no safety net for the players who were injured and had their careers ended.

Ted Lindsay stood up like a man and deserves a lot of credit. Ron Hainsey is no Ted Lindsay. Heck, he can't even carry Lindsay's jock strap.

Hainsey whined to the media. He yelled at owners during the meetings. He certainly was a happy warrior for the NHLPA but he comes across a stooge in the process. Don't think he deserves any credit for getting a deal done.
I hear that a lot regarding unions of all sorts, the whole "The union was good then, but now it is unnecessary and they are arguing for things they don't need." What you are arguing seems to be an extension of that, IMO. The problem is that if the union doing its union stuff is now unnecessary, what happens when you stop the union from doing its union stuff? What happens is that the ownership gets more and more from the employees eventually to the point where it is as if the union never existed.

I view the whole "Union is unnecessary/going too far these days" argument as a bit of a logical fallacy for that reason. A union in an environment where the unions aren't run by the government as pawns (Soviet Union) is supposed to make the lives of employers miserable, that is the very reason for its existence: To say "Respect our demands, or we don't work."

So if one thinks that union representatives playing hardball is bad in the current time period, that person is essentially arguing that union representatives playing hardball is always a bad thing, because unions are constantly arguing to make sure things don't always turn to the owners side.

Labor disputes are labor disputes, and no side is inherently better than the other.

I hope my tone isn't too political or accusatory, I just don't think Hainsey deserves to be booed for simply being a union representative.

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01-06-2013, 05:58 PM
  #953
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01-06-2013, 05:59 PM
  #954
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Well, I'm hoping that when Buff rolls into town, he doesn't actually roll into town.

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01-06-2013, 06:09 PM
  #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
I hear that a lot regarding unions of all sorts, the whole "The union was good then, but now it is unnecessary and they are arguing for things they don't need." What you are arguing seems to be an extension of that, IMO. The problem is that if the union doing its union stuff is now unnecessary, what happens when you stop the union from doing its union stuff? What happens is that the ownership gets more and more from the employees eventually to the point where it is as if the union never existed.

I view the whole "Union is unnecessary/going too far these days" argument as a bit of a logical fallacy for that reason. A union in an environment where the unions aren't run by the government as pawns (Soviet Union) is supposed to make the lives of employers miserable, that is the very reason for its existence: To say "Respect our demands, or we don't work."

So if one thinks that union representatives playing hardball is bad in the current time period, that person is essentially arguing that union representatives playing hardball is always a bad thing, because unions are constantly arguing to make sure things don't always turn to the owners side.

Labor disputes are labor disputes, and no side is inherently better than the other.

I hope my tone isn't too political or accusatory, I just don't think Hainsey deserves to be booed for simply being a union representative.
That's a really good point. The part of your reply that I bolded really made me think.

Still not a fan of how Hainsey conducted himself during the lockout. I feel he was combative instead of collaborative and that prolonged this lockout. I feel the same for Jeremy Jacobs. At the end of the day, we had a 100+ day lockout so those who were stewards for the process deserve to take responsibility for the unnecessary lockout.

I'm pumped that the NHL is back but I'm still pissed it had to be compromised to begin with. I've got a few friends who are no longer following hockey because they have had enough crap with millionaires fighting billionaires.

Personally, I have no problem with anybody booing Hainsey. I likely would if I could afford tickets. He's as much a goat as Jacobs, Bettman and Fehr are.

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01-06-2013, 06:24 PM
  #956
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Won't ever get over it. I will never, ever wish anything but the worst for Moneybags Hainsey.
I would have to agree that given the skill set that Hainsey brings to the game, he might be getting more money than he should be... BUT, you have to remember that we ( our current management ) did not sign this guy to a $5M contract. That was those idiots in Atlanta.

So like all things to do with the Jets, we have a few issues on this team that we inherited, and it will take some time to handle.

IIRC Hainsey goes from $5M / yr to $3M this year. His cap hit is still $4.5M, but he is getting paid less. And when he does become an UFA next year, I don't see anyone offering what he makes now, so we will see...

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01-06-2013, 06:27 PM
  #957
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The money thing is beyond stupid at this point. It's almost as if you guys are the ones signing the paychecks.

This team has no issues when it comes to the cap so why is that always the reason for these arguments.

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01-06-2013, 06:29 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
The money thing is beyond stupid at this point. It's almost as if you guys are the ones signing the paychecks.

This team has no issues when it comes to the cap so why is that always the reason for these arguments.
Here here. It's not like he's Gomez or something. Besides the fact right now he is being paid an appropriate amount.

I think there's more to this than just $$$

I wasn't thrilled with Hains during the negotiations but it's over and totally forgotten in my mind now. I can't wait to see him score 6 goals in the season opener!

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01-06-2013, 06:31 PM
  #959
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Who Cares? What a joke?

I'm so physically disgusted with the NHL right now it almost irritates me to see all the optimism. 3 strikes in 17 years. One lost 04-05 season and two band-aid solution petty 48 game seasons in 12-13 and 94-95. From the players to the owners to Fehr and Bettman, shame on you for taking the fans for granted again. At the beginning of last season, both the NBA and the NFL were at a crossroads. Come to a legitimate agreement and find labour peace or risk having fans turn their back on you at least in the short term. The NFL came to an agreement without even losing a game.

The NBA settled relatively quick and lost 10 games off the schedule realizing the potential damage that could occur. The NHL has done it again and sold their fans and sponors down the river, and even though I knew that the majority of fans in the U.S. wouldn't care and appathy and indifference would be the major reaction, I've been almost surprised to see my co-workers, friends, family, and strangers for the most past come off as rather unbothered by the stoppage. This time, It almost seems like people tuned out the ridiculous night after night tally of games lost. People found other things to occupy their time with and found other sporting events to watch. Friends of mine starting watching NBA and Premiership again. And I found junior and AHL hockey played at pubs and lounges. The world juniors, Spengler, Deutchland Cup, Junior A Challenge, Under 17 World Challenge all provided hockey at various points.

The bulk of the people that I have interacted with would rather the NHL have cancelled the entire season and fixed things properly and ironed everything out as opposed to putting together some garbage 48 game season in the hopes that it would appease the masses and salvage any bit of deccorum. What's happening with 2014 Olympic Participation? Expansion? Reallignment? Draft Lottery set up changes? None of these issues have been resolved and the people shouldn't fool themseleves with the 10 year deal. The opt out is after 8 and one can bet dollars to doughnuts that we'll be doing all this again in 8 years time. The fans will come back in spades in Canadian cities cause that's what they do (particularly in Winnipeg where fans got a 1 year tease) but I can't wait to see the attendance numbers for the majority of the other 23 NHL markets. Enjoy your condensed, conference heavy, Summertime playoffs, hockey everyone. But more importantly, enjoy the next NHL lockout that'll be coming in 8 years time.

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01-06-2013, 06:41 PM
  #960
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Yeah yeah yeah. Jeez I'm getting tired of these butt-hurt "fans" with their pronouncements about never going to another game and never giving those "bleeps" another dollar. Its a business. They didn't do it becuase they hate you and your buddies. They did it becuase the previous CBA ended and they had to hash out a new one. Had they not got it done now in time for a half season, then next year would have been the same thing over again. Its done. This short season might just be a real barn burner and next year and for at least another 7 years after that we don't have to think about this again. It sucked and it should have been resolved sooner but its over now and we can get on with it...

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01-06-2013, 06:44 PM
  #961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
The money thing is beyond stupid at this point. It's almost as if you guys are the ones signing the paychecks.

This team has no issues when it comes to the cap so why is that always the reason for these arguments.
Because we're cheap Manitobans that work hard for the little money we actually make and these players sign these retarded contracts. It's stupid.

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Old
01-06-2013, 06:47 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
Because we're cheap Manitobans that work hard for the little money we actually make and these players sign these retarded contracts. It's stupid.
Not a good idea to be a sports fan if their contracts get you upset. Try looking at baseball contracts, it'll make you sick.

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01-06-2013, 06:48 PM
  #963
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This is how I thought I would feel too. I was completely pissed at both sides. Still am.

But I'm super excited to talk about NHL hockey again. I felt good this morning when I read TSN this morning and saw that a resolution was reached. NHL hockey is obviously something I love. That said, I have two friends who were absolutely die hard Jets and NHL fans last year that now have no need for NHL hockey and won't be following it any longer. The damage, for them, is irreparable. I think Paul Bissonette summed it up very well on Twitter when he said "to the fans who will not come back to the NHL, I can understand." (pretty much exact words)

I think you're right about weak hockey markets like Phoenix, Miami and Dallas. They will suffer the most. No different than it took markets like Toronto longer to recover from the last MLB strike.

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01-06-2013, 06:58 PM
  #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul-laus View Post
I'm so physically disgusted with the NHL right now it almost irritates me to see all the optimism. 3 strikes in 17 years. One lost 04-05 season and two band-aid solution petty 48 game seasons in 12-13 and 94-95. From the players to the owners to Fehr and Bettman, shame on you for taking the fans for granted again. At the beginning of last season, both the NBA and the NFL were at a crossroads. Come to a legitimate agreement and find labour peace or risk having fans turn their back on you at least in the short term. The NFL came to an agreement without even losing a game.

The NBA settled relatively quick and lost 10 games off the schedule realizing the potential damage that could occur. The NHL has done it again and sold their fans and sponors down the river, and even though I knew that the majority of fans in the U.S. wouldn't care and appathy and indifference would be the major reaction, I've been almost surprised to see my co-workers, friends, family, and strangers for the most past come off as rather unbothered by the stoppage. This time, It almost seems like people tuned out the ridiculous night after night tally of games lost. People found other things to occupy their time with and found other sporting events to watch. Friends of mine starting watching NBA and Premiership again. And I found junior and AHL hockey played at pubs and lounges. The world juniors, Spengler, Deutchland Cup, Junior A Challenge, Under 17 World Challenge all provided hockey at various points.

The bulk of the people that I have interacted with would rather the NHL have cancelled the entire season and fixed things properly and ironed everything out as opposed to putting together some garbage 48 game season in the hopes that it would appease the masses and salvage any bit of deccorum. What's happening with 2014 Olympic Participation? Expansion? Reallignment? Draft Lottery set up changes? None of these issues have been resolved and the people shouldn't fool themseleves with the 10 year deal. The opt out is after 8 and one can bet dollars to doughnuts that we'll be doing all this again in 8 years time. The fans will come back in spades in Canadian cities cause that's what they do (particularly in Winnipeg where fans got a 1 year tease) but I can't wait to see the attendance numbers for the majority of the other 23 NHL markets. Enjoy your condensed, conference heavy, Summertime playoffs, hockey everyone. But more importantly, enjoy the next NHL lockout that'll be coming in 8 years time.

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Old
01-06-2013, 07:00 PM
  #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensibleGuy View Post
Yeah yeah yeah. Jeez I'm getting tired of these butt-hurt "fans" with their pronouncements about never going to another game and never giving those "bleeps" another dollar. Its a business. They didn't do it becuase they hate you and your buddies. They did it becuase the previous CBA ended and they had to hash out a new one. Had they not got it done now in time for a half season, then next year would have been the same thing over again. Its done. This short season might just be a real barn burner and next year and for at least another 7 years after that we don't have to think about this again. It sucked and it should have been resolved sooner but its over now and we can get on with it...
If this is directed at me, I never implied that I wouldn't watch hockey again. As I said, the junior hockey I've seen has never been better. I just can't believe that you're so much of a robot that you'll put up with this every few years and welcome the NHL back with open arms no questions asked. Like I said, three strikes in 17 years, 2 strikes in 7 years. When the NFL and NBA needed to get their deals done with the players, they did so and without much loss at all. They knew better and knew the health of their brand was more important. The NHL? Well they dragged us through another 4 month odyssey and then tried a quick artificial solution. Why do I get the feeling that if McDonald's bothed your order 3 times in a row. You'd be like-"their just misunderstood. God bless 'em...."

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01-06-2013, 07:01 PM
  #966
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I think everyone is upset about the situation but I cant really see anyone boycotting the NHL completely esp. if you love the game and want to watch the best players in the world. I personally wont start watching games until after the NFL playoffs and probably wont be buying any NHL gear this season as I decked out my mancave with NFL stuff as I figured the NHL was a bust this season. Glad it is back though and will be on the wagon shortly!

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Old
01-06-2013, 07:04 PM
  #967
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Well looky looky at that. The lockout is over, and the thread is done. Pretty good timing, peeps!

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