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Luongo Talk: The Final Countdown...?

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01-06-2013, 09:59 PM
  #26
arsmaster
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Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
They're not the ones paying over 4 million for a mediocre hockey player.
Mediocre?

Booth was in the top 90 in goals per 60 mins for NHL forwards last year (new team, injury, linemate struggles). The list of players he is ahead of in this stat would turn your head. I'm not going to dig through the old thread to find the article but you can do it if you wish.

He scores goals.

That's what he's here for, he drives the net - something only Kesler did before him.

He's strong.

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01-06-2013, 10:00 PM
  #27
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what

i believe booth has played in the nhl prior
You're smart enough to figure out my point than to rely on comment like; he's played all of 61 NHL games as a Canuck; think he deserves a bit more time before one can make a proper evaluation on him. Forget the cheap-shot he took from that Avs player that de-railed his momentum when he looked like he was getting going....

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01-06-2013, 10:01 PM
  #28
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Apparently we got killed in the Booth trade giving up Marco Sturm and Mikael Samuelsson...neither of whom had much of an impact last season and neither of whom are still with the Panthers.
samuelsson was fighting injuries, hes been pretty consistent and its not as if hes injury prone, to judge him based on one injured season is quite strange

even when he returned, he still played very well

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01-06-2013, 10:02 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
How long did the Sedins take before becoming decent NHL players? I'm pretty sure it took them more than 56 regular season & 5 playoff games in a Canuck uniform...
Booth has 309 NHL games under his belt before joining the Canucks, he should know how to play the game by now. You can't make him out to be a rookie here. He had time to acclimate and got worse as the season went on. He deserves this season to be further evaluated, but not much more than that IMO.

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Old
01-06-2013, 10:04 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
You're smart enough to figure out my point than to rely on comment like; he's played all of 61 NHL games as a Canuck; think he deserves a bit more time before one can make a proper evaluation on him.
i understood your point. i was implying that he has played prior and that it shouldn't really matter. 60 games on your new team is plenty to get a bit of an understanding of the system, its not a new league.

anyway i dont want to get into this debate, i like both players. i just think samuelsson brings more. and it'd take him (booth) turning into quite the player to make us the clear winners

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01-06-2013, 10:06 PM
  #31
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Age and upside was what Booth brought that Samuelsson could not. Booth will be relevant long after Samuelsson is retired.



Oh, and no one is going to make a convincing enough argument because you don't want to be convinced.

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01-06-2013, 10:06 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Booth a poor mans Samuelsson? I like Samuelsson as much as the next guy, but I can't recall Samuelsson driving to the net.
OTOH I can't recall Booth making a pass.

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01-06-2013, 10:06 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
60 games on your new team is plenty to get a bit of an understanding of the system, its not a new league.
You're forgetting that "knee-on-knee" hit that didn't exactly do him any good. In spite of that, he was scoring at a 20 goal pace as a Canuck.

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OTOH I can't recall Booth making a pass.
Sammy OTOH didn't have to make passes given that he'd pretty much shoot the puck at any spot on the ice.

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01-06-2013, 10:07 PM
  #34
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No. Under the old CBA, for players under 35 years old (or more correctly under 35 when the contract comes into effect) , if the player retires, the player's salary does not count against the salary cap.
The old CBA means nothing now and if they put the rule about contracts with more than 5 years left on them that's been bandied about for the last few months then the Canucks certainly will be taking on Luongo's cap hit when he retires.

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01-06-2013, 10:07 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Mediocre?

Booth was in the top 90 in goals per 60 mins for NHL forwards last year (new team, injury, linemate struggles). The list of players he is ahead of in this stat would turn your head. I'm not going to dig through the old thread to find the article but you can do it if you wish.

He scores goals.

That's what he's here for, he drives the net - something only Kesler did before him.

He's strong.


Don't bother, there is a certain subset here that won't change their minds. They just don't like him, and that's fine. They don't have to.

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01-06-2013, 10:09 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
You're forgetting that "knee-on-knee" hit that didn't exactly do him any good. In spite of that, he was scoring at a 20 goal pace as a Canuck.


Sammy OTOH didn't have to make passes given that he'd pretty much shoot the puck at any spot on the ice.
Do you know even in samuelsson's lower season on the nucks, he still scored 18 and managed even more assists to make up for it. and that samuelsson will probably ALWAYS be the more valuable player in the playoffs. Even with his odd drive to the net, i can't see the way he plays being as valuable as a grit machine like samuelsson.

our seasons barely matter anymore, not in comparison to the playoffs

i rather a non flashy season player and has the tools required to succeed in the playoffs

like i said earlier, i want more players like hartnell and samuelsson, i rather trade players like raymond, heatley, etc (even if they are younger and score more pretty goals)

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01-06-2013, 10:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
Do you know even in samuelsson's lower season on the nucks, he still scored 18 and managed even more assists to make up for it. and that samuelsson will probably ALWAYS be the more valuable player in the playoffs. Even with his odd drive to the net, i can't see the way he plays being as valuable as a grit machine like samuelsson.

our seasons barely matter anymore, not in comparison to the playoffs

i rather a non flashy season player and has the tools required to succeed in the playoffs
He was a 36 year old UFA coming off a fairly significant injury they traded for a 28 yr old power forward...I make that trade every day of the week.

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01-06-2013, 10:15 PM
  #38
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He was a 36 year old UFA coming off a fairly significant injury they traded for a 28 yr old power forward...I make that trade every day of the week.


What is happening here, this guy was just debating posts regarding booths play and saying he'll wait to judge, now hes trying to debate me who had a similar stance?

There multiple people logged into your account?

Quote:
I'm willing to give Booth this season to prove himself before deciding whether or not to cut him loose...I think he's a better bet to rebound than an aging Samuelsson.
Quote:
Booth has 309 NHL games under his belt before joining the Canucks, he should know how to play the game by now. You can't make him out to be a rookie here. He had time to acclimate and got worse as the season went on. He deserves this season to be further evaluated, but not much more than that IMO.
My head hurts. Im going to go back to work

Though you are right about him being 36, about the only knock. But our window is now and he still has a few good years ahead of him IMO. And years i still think he'd be better than booth as long as hes playing. Im willing to say its a pretty even trade (51/49 florida) but given i think our chance was the strongest these past couple years and for the next couple. It is tough to swallow.


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Old
01-06-2013, 10:17 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Oh, and no one is going to make a convincing enough argument because you don't want to be convinced.
That and the fact Samuelsson simply produces more than Booth, is a more complete player, is more versatile with his ability to play with the Sedins and on the point on the PP and the fact he makes 60% less than Booth. Never mind Samuelsson's ability to elevate his play come playoff time.

There's a reason Vancouver and Detroit both wanted to get this guy back. Underrated player, especially at his salary.

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01-06-2013, 10:19 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
Do you know even in samuelsson's lower season on the nucks, he still scored 18 and managed even more assists to make up for it.
Frankly, I thought Sammy was a liability defensively that year (even moreso that those that claim Booth is). He might have legitimate reasons for that (I think he had a groin injury) but it still made him a less effective player without the puck.

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01-06-2013, 10:22 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
That and the fact Samuelsson simply produces more than Booth, is a more complete player, is more versatile with his ability to play with the Sedins and on the point on the PP and the fact he makes 60% less than Booth. Never mind Samuelsson's ability to elevate his play come playoff time.

There's a reason Vancouver and Detroit both wanted to get this guy back. Underrated player, especially at his salary.


I agree. I liked Samuelsson, he's a versatile player. I still make that trade though, hands down. This top6 forward is going to be around a lot longer than Samuelsson, and he plays a style this team is trying to adopt. Those are the main reasons he was picked up IMO.


But again, it's up to you if you are willing to acknowledge that fact.

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Old
01-06-2013, 10:24 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I agree. I liked Samuelsson, he's a versatile player. I still make that trade though, hands down. This top6 forward is going to be around a lot longer than Samuelsson, and he plays a style this team is trying to adopt. Those are the main reasons he was picked up IMO.


But again, it's up to you if you are willing to acknowledge that fact.
The people that mention he'll be around longer. Well think about this.

Do you take the 80 percent or the 90 percent, the 80 percent lasts longer but why can't you replace the 90 percent with another 80 or 90 when the time comes? dont you come out on top? his salary and no demand for long contracts made that possible

Guys act as if we couldn't find another player when samuelsson faded out. With 4.5 million, i think its possible

Since when do you trade a player for a player thats worse because he'll play for longer *shrug*

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01-06-2013, 10:26 PM
  #43
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Booth v Samuelsson aside, this is the problem with 2nd and 4th liners. Fans want two first lines and two third lines, and often have unrealistic expectations for these players.

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01-06-2013, 10:26 PM
  #44
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Can't imagine we trade for Bozak and try to replace Schroeder with him. He has horrible advanced stats and cushy ice-time in Toronto. He also had only 4 goals in 32 AHL games when he was a year older than Schroeder. To trade for him when you could be developing a better player is just insanity.

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01-06-2013, 10:27 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post


What is happening here, this guy was just debating posts regarding booths play and saying he'll wait to judge, now hes trying to debate me who had a similar stance?

There multiple people logged into your account?





My head hurts. Im going to go back to work
Whats so hard to understand? Samuelsson was an aging UFA who was coming off an injury...he was traded for Booth who is younger and more fit the mold of a "power forward". I never said that the trade has worked out like it was hoped it should have, but it was still the smart move...just like trading for Ballard was a smart move at the time. Trades sometimes don't work out like you hope they do, but they can still be a smart move at the time they happen.

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01-06-2013, 10:29 PM
  #46
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The people that mention he'll be around longer. Well think about this.

Do you take the 80 percent or the 90 percent, the 80 percent lasts longer but why can't you replace the 90 percent with another 80 or 90 when the time comes? dont you come out on top? his salary and no demand for long contracts made that possible

Guys act as if we couldn't find another player when samuelsson faded out. With 5 million, i think its possible


With the way UFA was looking these past 3 years, I doubt this team would have found a PWF Top6 scorer for a sub 5m contract un FA. Who would have fit that mold in FA?


For any UFA, it's a gamble. It was only Garrison's ties to BC that allowed him to be signed at the 4.6m mark, when rumours persisted that he could have gotten close to 6m elsewhere. Would it be prudent to rely on that same strategy and _hope_ to get a player like Booth in the same way? And when? This team is contending now...


When you argue Booth vs. Imaginary Roster Player X, Booth is not going to win because the grass is always greener.

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01-06-2013, 10:32 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
Booth v Samuelsson aside, this is the problem with 2nd and 4th liners. Fans want two first lines and two third lines, and often have unrealistic expectations for these players.

Bingo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Can't imagine we trade for Bozak and try to replace Schroeder with him. He has horrible advanced stats and cushy ice-time in Toronto. He also had only 4 goals in 32 AHL games when he was a year older than Schroeder. To trade for him when you could be developing a better player is just insanity.


Yup. I hope Schroeder gets a chance to show us what he has before a deal goes down. However, if the deal does go down and Bozak is coming back, I would hope he is a secondary or lesser piece regardless.

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01-06-2013, 10:33 PM
  #48
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I agree. I liked Samuelsson, he's a versatile player. I still make that trade though, hands down. This top6 forward is going to be around a lot longer than Samuelsson, and he plays a style this team is trying to adopt. Those are the main reasons he was picked up IMO.


But again, it's up to you if you are willing to acknowledge that fact.
That's where we disagree. I don't see value in having Booth for longer if he's not giving us good value at $4.2mil. He will need to improve upon his play from the last 3 seasons for me to look at this player as a valuable asset at his contract.

Booth just really hurts our versatility up front. He can't kill penalties, isn't good on the PP, looks lost with the Sedins, a poor fit on the 3rd line and won't help Ryan Kesler score goals. It really limits what AV can do with the lineup having this guy stapled to Kesler, unless the 2 show excellent chemistry. Remains to be seen if they can form a formiddable duo.

Keep in mind I was probably the 1st one on this board to bang the bring Booth to Vancouver drum - roughly 2 years before he was actually acquired. I want him to succeed - I've just been surprised and disappointed how limited a player he's appeared to be in Vancouver. If he plays well, I won't hesitate to aknowledge it. Jury is out.

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01-06-2013, 10:34 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
With the way UFA was looking these past 3 years, I doubt this team would have found a PWF Top6 scorer for a sub 5m contract un FA. Who would have fit that mold in FA?


For any UFA, it's a gamble. It was only Garrison's ties to BC that allowed him to be signed at the 4.6m mark, when rumours persisted that he could have gotten close to 6m elsewhere. Would it be prudent to rely on that same strategy and _hope_ to get a player like Booth in the same way? And when? This team is contending now...


When you argue Booth vs. Imaginary Roster Player X, Booth is not going to win because the grass is always greener.
no im just saying you dont trade backwards because hes going to play at a good pace for longer, you take the better player. nobody trades for a rookie unless that rookie has real good potential to be even better. even if booth increased his game, he'd still only increase to how good samuelsson was for us (hes not even there yet after 60 games) - when the time comes, you then go through the process of finding someone again in a few years, thats how the nhl works. i think our team is more than capable to find good talent if we have the available cap space, its an attractive team/market to play for

my opinion of samuelsson and what he brings to our team, especially in the playoffs is simply higher than yours, thats all it comes down to. i believe you think booth will fill out and become a better player than samuelsson, i do not because i think highly of samuelsson. so trading backwards to get a player that eventually brings as much, well it seems odd


Last edited by Pseudonymous: 01-06-2013 at 10:42 PM.
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Old
01-06-2013, 10:35 PM
  #50
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I think it's clear Samuelsson is winning the battle at the moment, but does anyone think he would have been the difference last year? And does anyone think he's going to continue to play the way he has this year and next?

Personally, I think he's going to be done any minute now. And I am not one of those guys who shows bias when someone gets traded away (I still defend Hodgson) or one of those guys who thinks Booth is going to be great.

That trade does not bother me at all.

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