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Luongo Talk: The Final Countdown...?

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01-06-2013, 10:42 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
That's where we disagree. I don't see value in having Booth for longer if he's not giving us good value at $4.2mil. He will need to improve upon his play from the last 3 seasons for me to look at this player as a valuable asset at his contract.

Booth just really hurts our versatility up front. He can't kill penalties, isn't good on the PP, looks lost with the Sedins, a poor fit on the 3rd line and won't help Ryan Kesler score goals. It really limits what AV can do with the lineup having this guy stapled to Kesler, unless the 2 show excellent chemistry. Remains to be seen if they can form a formiddable duo.

Keep in mind I was probably the 1st one on this board to bang the bring Booth to Vancouver drum - roughly 2 years before he was actually acquired. I want him to succeed - I've just been surprised and disappointed how limited a player he's appeared to be in Vancouver. If he plays well, I won't hesitate to aknowledge it. Jury is out.
I think the main thing Booth needs is to have a Ryan Kesler who is willing to distribute the puck...we can't have two head down, puck hogs playing on the same line effectively, Booth doesn't have the ability to be a playmaker but Kesler does...he just needs to be willing to make that adjustment. Booth is a very limited player, but he can still be effective as a net presence and bull in the corners if he's utilized properly. Basically he's a complimentary offensive player, not someone who drives the offense himself...if he doesn't fit with Kesler on the 2nd line, for whatever reason, he should be gone after this season...but he's pretty much the best bet we have right now...unless Kassian renders him expendable, but I think thats a year away.

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01-06-2013, 10:42 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
That's where we disagree. I don't see value in having Booth for longer if he's not giving us good value at $4.2mil. He will need to improve upon his play from the last 3 seasons for me to look at this player as a valuable asset at his contract.

Booth just really hurts our versatility up front. He can't kill penalties, isn't good on the PP, looks lost with the Sedins, a poor fit on the 3rd line and won't help Ryan Kesler score goals. It really limits what AV can do with the lineup having this guy stapled to Kesler, unless the 2 show excellent chemistry. Remains to be seen if they can form a formiddable duo.

Keep in mind I was probably the 1st one on this board to bang the bring Booth to Vancouver drum - roughly 2 years before he was actually acquired. I want him to succeed - I've just been surprised and disappointed how limited a player he's appeared to be in Vancouver. If he plays well, I won't hesitate to aknowledge it. Jury is out.


Jury is out, sure. But he is a top6 PWF making league average 2nd line money. We went over this remember? When I brought up guys like Setoguchi, PM Bouchard and others...?


The longevity is an asset as long as he still is a top6 PWF, because the odds of VAN finding something similar for less are unlikely. That said, if you see a top6 PWF sign for less in FA, or see a similar top6 PWF get traded for a similar package, you've got a case to be made. I just don't think you will see that player/deal.

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01-06-2013, 10:45 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I think the main thing Booth needs is to have a Ryan Kesler who is willing to distribute the puck...we can't have two head down, puck hogs playing on the same line effectively, Booth doesn't have the ability to be a playmaker but Kesler does...he just needs to be willing to make that adjustment. Booth is a very limited player, but he can still be effective as a net presence and bull in the corners if he's utilized properly. Basically he's a complimentary offensive player, not someone who drives the offense himself...if he doesn't fit with Kesler on the 2nd line, for whatever reason, he should be gone after this season...but he's pretty much the best bet we have right now...unless Kassian renders him expendable, but I think thats a year away.
I dont think his salary is a big deal, I think the line of Kassian/Kesler/Booth was good. While he may be overpaid, not overpaid enough to replace him/get rid of him, if you already have him, keep him.. When kassian gains the experience and consistent work ethic, expect how they played together to be more consistent. I love the potential of that line. I dont care if he continues to only be a 20 goal scorer and complimentary player.

now a 6th d man getting paid 4.2, thats more tough to swallow, as much as i also like ballard.

4.5 for a 2nd liner, im not too worried

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01-06-2013, 10:47 PM
  #54
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So....the Luongo trade....

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01-06-2013, 10:48 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I think the main thing Booth needs is to have a Ryan Kesler who is willing to distribute the puck...we can't have two head down, puck hogs playing on the same line effectively, Booth doesn't have the ability to be a playmaker but Kesler does...he just needs to be willing to make that adjustment. Booth is a very limited player, but he can still be effective as a net presence and bull in the corners if he's utilized properly. Basically he's a complimentary offensive player, not someone who drives the offense himself...if he doesn't fit with Kesler on the 2nd line, for whatever reason, he should be gone after this season...but he's pretty much the best bet we have right now...unless Kassian renders him expendable, but I think thats a year away.
Kassian would actually be the ideal compliment to Kesler and Booth. Pass first, great IQ, can work the cycle well, can keep up with the skating and of course has size. Here's to hoping he can improve his consistency so that our 2nd line will be a threat to score every time.

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01-06-2013, 10:49 PM
  #56
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no im just saying you dont trade backwards because hes going to play at a good pace for longer, you take the better player. nobody trades for a rookie unless that rookie has real good potential to be even better. even if booth increased his game, he'd still only increase to how good samuelsson was for us (hes not even there yet after 60 games) - when the time comes, you then go through the process of finding someone again in a few years, thats how the nhl works. i think our team is more than capable to find good talent if we have the available cap space, its an attractive team/market to play for

my opinion of samuelsson and what he brings to our team, especially in the playoffs is simply higher than yours, thats all it comes down to. i believe you think booth will fill out and become a better player than samuelsson, i do not because i think highly of samuelsson. so trading backwards to get a player that eventually brings as much, well it seems odd


Not exactly. I think Samuelsson is a very good playoff player... when he plays. That was the death knell for him IMO. When the team went deep and he couldn't come back to help. Then, he continued to struggle with health in the next season... You couldn't rely on him anymore.



And "better player" has caveats: Better at what? Scoring? Nope, Booth is a very efficient scorer. Passing? Yes, Samuelsson could make plays that Booth can't. Defense? Wash IMO, although I like Booth's ability to counter more than I did Sammy's. Overall Samuelsson was a much more creative player, but the trade off is the direct style Booth plays. So "better at what" becomes a legit question IMO.


Again, Booth vs. Imaginary Player X is an unreasonable argument.

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01-06-2013, 10:49 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So....the Luongo trade....
I expect him to take over the starting position too

Not because he should but because hes such a figurehead that i can't expect anything else other than the team to give him more starts.

Im almost worried he will start off a bit better, because then we keep the older goaltender who always plays at 90 percent and trade the cheaper goaltender with what I believe has higher upside and a 5th gear that luongo can no longer find

I simply feel more confident about going forward with Schneider and with how good luongo is, theres no reason he couldnt' take back his job long enough for them to second guess it

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01-06-2013, 10:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So....the Luongo trade....
Was just going to say. Gave up reading this thread since the paragraphs keep gettin longer and longer about a different topic.

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01-06-2013, 10:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
Kassian would actually be the ideal compliment to Kesler and Booth. Pass first, great IQ, can work the cycle well, can keep up with the skating and of course has size. Here's to hoping he can improve his consistency so that our 2nd line will be a threat to score every time.
I agree, but I think we're all a little too overzealous to throw him into the fire because of that, personally. He doesn't look ready at all, IMO-- He hasn't even shown us that he's ready for a 3rd line role yet, IMO.

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01-06-2013, 10:50 PM
  #60
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I dont think his salary is a big deal, I think the line of Kassian/Kesler/Booth was good. While he may be overpaid, not overpaid enough to replace him/get rid of him, if you already have him, keep him.. When kassian gains the experience and consistent work ethic, expect how they played together to be more consistent. I love the potential of that line. I dont care if he continues to only be a 20 goal scorer and complimentary player.

now a 6th d man getting paid 4.2, thats more tough to swallow, as much as i also like ballard.

4.5 for a 2nd liner, im not too worried
$4.5 for a 2nd liner is ok as long as he is producing like an upper end 2nd liner, or adds another dimension to the roster IMO...Booth needs to deliver some good offensive numbers to be a good value 2nd liner.

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01-06-2013, 10:51 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So....the Luongo trade....
Be happy it's not more Bozak, Franson, 3rd round pick talk.

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01-06-2013, 10:52 PM
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Players on the LTIR can't be bought out. So that means Philly can't buy out Pronger. Which makes Bryzgalov virtually the only target for them.

I think we may have something here...Although I've probably jinxed it already.

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01-06-2013, 10:52 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The longevity is an asset as long as he still is a top6 PWF, because the odds of VAN finding something similar for less are unlikely. That said, if you see a top6 PWF sign for less in FA, or see a similar top6 PWF get traded for a similar package, you've got a case to be made. I just don't think you will see that player/deal.
This is faulty logic. There's no reason that 'top 6 player X' would need to sign for less or be traded for a similar package. The guy could make $5.5mil and be an upgrade - that's still a move worth making. Or acquiring a Bobby Ryan level player for a much greater package than Booth garnered...

The $4.2mil is an abitrary number. Upgrading the team is the goal - not upgrading the team at or less than what David Booth makes.

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01-06-2013, 10:56 PM
  #64
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Bob Mac says no Lu deal is in place. Way more plausible than those idiots at SNET (Josh Rimer and Shannon) saying its a done deal.

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01-06-2013, 11:00 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
...if he doesn't fit with Kesler on the 2nd line, for whatever reason, he should be gone after this season...
I agree with this. It's form a strong duo with Kesler or the highway for this guy...

Kesler definately deserves a lot of the blame for how the 2nd line played, though hard to criticize a player too much when they're struggling their way through injuries. If Booth and Kesler don't show better when they are healthy, it'll be time to question Booth's future here.

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01-06-2013, 11:05 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
This is faulty logic. There's no reason that 'top 6 player X' would need to sign for less or be traded for a similar package. The guy could make $5.5mil and be an upgrade - that's still a move worth making. Or acquiring a Bobby Ryan level player for a much greater package than Booth garnered...

The $4.2mil is an abitrary number. Upgrading the team is the goal - not upgrading the team at or less than what David Booth makes.


The assumption was a similar level player to Booth. A PWF of his calibre, not legit 1st liners. A player with a similar skill-set, would he make 4m or less?


So let me ask you this, upgrading the team is the goal, so why isn't Bobby Ryan here? Or similar type player? We know the cost of this player would be higher than Booth, but that shouldn't matter right? Why hasn't Gillis paid it yet?

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01-06-2013, 11:05 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Players on the LTIR can't be bought out. So that means Philly can't buy out Pronger. Which makes Bryzgalov virtually the only target for them.

I think we may have something here...Although I've probably jinxed it already.
It'll take $34.5m after this season to buyout Bryzgalov, he's really going to have to stink up the joint for that to happen...I'm betting they'll hang onto one of their buyouts for after the end of the following season just in case it becomes an issue. He'll cost $26.5 at that point. Still...he's going to need to be VERY ugly....but, the Flyers are one of the teams with the money to get it done.

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01-06-2013, 11:06 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Players on the LTIR can't be bought out. So that means Philly can't buy out Pronger. Which makes Bryzgalov virtually the only target for them.

I think we may have something here...Although I've probably jinxed it already.
Hockeybuzz probably becomes relevant again. If there is one team Eklund has proven he has connections with it's the Flyers.

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01-06-2013, 11:06 PM
  #69
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Thanks guys.

How would this affect our team? Are we cash strapped now? And after 8 years you're now a ufa? What was it before again?

Thanks guys I pretty much put this whole fiasco to the side this entire time.

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01-06-2013, 11:07 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
It'll take $34.5m after this season to buyout Bryzgalov, he's really going to have to stink up the joint for that to happen...I'm betting they'll hang onto one of their buyouts for after the end of the following season just in case it becomes an issue. He'll cost $26.5 at that point. Still...he's going to need to be VERY ugly....but, the Flyers are one of the teams with the money to get it done.
He'll cost $26.5M at that point PLUS his base salary that they're paying him to stink up the joint for the 2013-14 season (or whenever we're talking about).

If Aquilini were willing to spend that kinda money (which I doubt) I wonder if a Luongo for Bryzgalov + Couturier trade would be feasible?

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01-06-2013, 11:11 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The assumption was a similar level player to Booth. A PWF of his calibre, not legit 1st liners. A player with a similar skill-set, would he make 4m or less?


So let me ask you this, upgrading the team is the goal, so why isn't Bobby Ryan here? Or similar type player? We know the cost of this player would be higher than Booth, but that shouldn't matter right? Why hasn't Gillis paid it yet?
No, the assumption was never to acquire a PW of his calibre at $4mil or less. That's all irrelevant.

Let me ask you this, why did Gillis go out and sign Garrison for more money than Ballard makes, which will ultimately push Ballard down the roster and likely off it? Because he had an opportunity to upgrade his defense. If the opportunity arises to improve the forward corps, he'll do it. And that arbitrary $4.2mil is completely irrelevant and won't enter into the equation.

Not sure what makes you think a top 6 forward that comes in needs to make Booth money or less...

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01-06-2013, 11:11 PM
  #72
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Previous post:

Thanks guys.

How would this affect our team? Are we cash strapped now? And after 8 years you're now a ufa? What was it before again?

Thanks guys I pretty much put this whole fiasco to the side this entire time.


There's many ways it could affect our team. But on the surface, it looks like there's enough room to retain Edler (should he take 5m per), Higgins and Lapierre. Malhotra and Raymond would have to walk. Ballard would have to be traded/waived/bought out.


The UFA rules are the same. 8 years is the max term you can re-sign a player, and 7 years is the max term you can sign a UFA. Before there was no limit. This prevents Back Diving Contracts like the one Luongo has.

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01-06-2013, 11:14 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
He'll cost $26.5M at that point PLUS his base salary that they're paying him to stink up the joint for the 2013-14 season (or whenever we're talking about).

If Aquilini were willing to spend that kinda money (which I doubt) I wonder if a Luongo for Bryzgalov + Couturier trade would be feasible?
I'm not sure Gillis is willing to wait that long on the chance that Bryzgalov might stink up the joint.

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01-06-2013, 11:14 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
No, the assumption was never to acquire a PW of his calibre at $4mil or less. That's all irrelevant.

Let me ask you this, why did Gillis go out and sign Garrison for more money than Ballard makes, which will ultimately push Ballard down the roster and likely off it? Because he had an opportunity to upgrade his defense. If the opportunity arises to improve the forward corps, he'll do it. And that arbitrary $4.2mil is completely irrelevant and won't enter into the equation.

Not sure what makes you think a top 6 forward that comes in needs to make Booth money or less...


Ok, can you point to me cases in the last 3 years where the Canucks had an opportunity to sign a _better_value_ PWF Top6er, regardless of a 4m dollar threshold? Or to trade for one? If so, what was the acquisition cost?

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01-06-2013, 11:20 PM
  #75
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Ok, can you point to me cases in the last 3 years where the Canucks had an opportunity to sign a _better_value_ PWF Top6er, regardless of a 4m dollar threshold? Or to trade for one? If so, what was the acquisition cost?
Shane Doan.

I just don't understand the 4.2mil threshold. If Gillis could bring in a Corey Perry and it costs Booth his job, he'll do it IMO.

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