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Who should have won the Conn Smythe in 2010?

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Old
01-05-2013, 10:39 AM
  #51
struckbyaparkedcar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
So...let me get this straight...because Byfuglien caused "chaos" in the series against Vancouver in the second round (which he did, Vancouver was by far his most effective series), more than halfway through the Finals HCJQ decided to blow up his lineup? Seems odd...but sure why not...
I really wish you didn't play the "don't paraphrase me" card, then lead off with this paragraph. I don't even understand your point here, I was illustrating that Chicago's first line had extended success up until the Finals, which it did, with Byfuglien playing a large role in that.

Quote:
I'm not sure why you're putting such an emphasis on being able to physically handle Byfuglien? That sounds like something you'd say for a legitimate power forward, not some net-front dummy. "The Penguins needed Ulf Samuelsson to take on Cam Neely because he's the only blueliner that could handle him physically" that works. But having Byfuglien in front of the net on the #1 PP merely matched up with the Flyers #1 PK that contained Pronger. It's not like anyone was panicked if Byfuglien got out there without Pronger being out there...he can't really do much, especially at forward, to dictate the tempo of the game. Even Pronger said after his only meaningful game (mostly stat-wise) of the serires, "I guess he was well rested" or something like that because everyone knew that he just wasn't as advertised...
You'd think somebody besides Chris Pronger would have success at shutting down someone that limited, then? Because this happened in four of his six penalty minutes.


Byfuglien managed to find soft spots in coverage consistently against anybody not named Chris Pronger for three series. His offensive output was instrumental in two of Chicago's series wins. You said his "lack of hockey sense" was "exposed throughout the playoffs," but really he had one series outside of his normal position, one phenomenal series by your own admission, one series where he succeeded against "slower players" and one series where his entire line was neutralized by one of the best defensemen of his generation. So as a scoring winger his lack of hockey sense only was an issue in one series, where he was frequently matched up against a HHOF defenseman. Keep in mind, his center's performance, a player with much better mobility + hockey sense, against that same matchup is the entire reason we're even having this thread.

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In fact, the only two ES points he got in that game (which were mischaracterized as "four points the first game he was away from seeing Pronger on every shift." with OMG implications) were two secondary assists where he had very little to do with the goals. The weird bounce off the end wall that Bolland banked in off of a sieve goalie and the other was an individual rush by Versteeg who beat him with a mid-range jumper. Byfuglien got a PP goal and an empty net goal, both with Pronger out there I think...so, really, it just doesn't have much to do with that at all...Byfuglien at even strength continued to traipse around relatively aimlessly versus the expectations put on him...
Well, he was on the ice for one goal against in two games while playing on the checking line, and again, those PP goals came without Pronger on the ice. Obviously Bolland was the driving defensive presence of that line, but you keep acting like Byfuglien couldn't tie his shoes. He wouldn't be playing on Chicago's most important defensive line if that was the case.

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He was good against the Canucks, for whatever reason, he brings his game for them. He scored some timely goals against the Sharks, which is good, but in terms of being an impact player all throughout that series, well, that just wasn't the case. He was an impact player on those particular moments where those particular shots went in...if you want? But, no, he was just not a noteworthy force in these playoffs like he's made out to be. It just didn't happen that way. Maybe on paper, I'm not sure, but not on the ice certainly...
I guess I value being a consistent slot and net front presence more than you. Being a bigger, faster, more productive Ryan Smyth type certainly isn't a bad thing.

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As for your last point, I don't really want you to paraphrase anything of mine...especially if you're going to do it with such vitriol...haste makes waste clearly, so, I implore you to understand it and get it right or if you can't, just don't do it...
It's not really vitriol, I just found your post to be excessive and loaded with hyperbole such as:
Quote:
He's a mentally slow player and very poor in transition if he can't just lug the puck straight through it without asking for directions. His lack of hockey sense was exposed throughout the playoffs as he just wasn't sure what to do.
Quote:
I remember saying that if Pronger was somehow pre-occupied with wasting his time with a player like Byfuglien, the series would be over in three games...besides one big hit by Byfuglien that battle simply didn't materialize to any degree...Pronger's too smart to get bogged down with such nincompoopery, he had way bigger fish to fry and a goalie to babysit...
And selectively remembering that only Byfuglien was removed from the top line, when in reality Chicago shuffled their entire top nine.
Quote:
(until his ineffectiveness saw him removed from the line and replaced with Tomas Kopecky)

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01-05-2013, 10:46 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
It's kind of ironic that he then got completely embarrassed by the Versteeg/Sharp/Kane combination that resulted.
I'm always surprised how many people don't remember what Chicago's lines actually were to end the series.

It went from:
Byfuglien-Toews-Kane
Brouwer-Sharp-Hossa
Kopecky-Bolland-Versteeg

to

Kopecky-Toews-Hossa
Ladd-Sharp-Kane
Byfuglien-Bolland-Versteeg

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01-05-2013, 11:03 AM
  #53
Mike Farkas
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- Well, only according to the scoresheet was he really effective against San Jose. He was of pretty minimal importance as I recall throughout. Borderline invisible vs. his alleged near Conn Smythe worthy performance expectations. So, basically, he caused "chaos" against Vancouver and it somehow influenced an in-game adjustment in game 4 of a series that happened a month later? I just didn't understand the connection you made between "chaos vs. Vancouver" and lineup changes vs. Philadelphia. I tried to bridge the gap, but I just couldn't figure it out to be honest...

- In those two videos, Byfuglien is ignored by the Flyers defense both times. Which is either A) A product of not respecting him and letting the four penalty killers shutdown passing/shooting lanes and letting Byfuglien be the "goalie's guy" (some goalies in the audience grimace). Or B) Just fundamentally bad PKing, notably by Braydon Coburn who gets sucked out by the puck both times I believe there. Neither video shows Byfuglien finding anything nor does it show him matched up against anyone.

- Perhaps you're misinterpreting what hockey sense is? That's the only reason I could see that paragraph being typed there. Unfortunately or fortunately, there is no number for hockey sense, no stat, so far it seems that you're letting goals = hockey sense somehow, or at least at a close enough ratio to make me worry...

- It's not that he can't tie his shoes, it's that he doesn't know which feet they go on. That's why he gets moved around as much as he does. Coaches can't figure out what to do with him. He starts as a defenseman (which you referred to as "outside his normal position") in Prince George, gets a late pick, they try him at defense, he's just too much of a liability for that...they move him up to forward, they move him up and down the lineup because he doesn't have certain things that make him intrinsically valuable to any line consistently really...he's not a hard enough worker to be the forechecker/complimentary winger for a big scoring line, he's not good enough defensively to be a checking line winger for any length of time and his poor neutral zone decision making was evident throughout at either position, so they just jettison him all together where Winnipeg - one of the league's worst defensive teams - does their absolute best to babysit him, but it's just wasting the talents of Tobias Enstrom in the process...

- That's just it though, if he was really was a "consistent slot and net front presence" he'd be doing it...but he's not because he's not. He's big, if that's what you mean. But there's a reason why Ryan Smyth and Tomas Holmstrom still do it and Byfuglien did it for only a modest amount of time in his career, a modest enough amount of time that it didn't even span the entire 2010 playoffs...

- The only thing that was hyperbole in the quoted was "the series would be over in 3 games" ...the rest is pretty much on point.

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01-05-2013, 01:22 PM
  #54
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I'm always surprised how many people don't remember what Chicago's lines actually were to end the series.

It went from:
Byfuglien-Toews-Kane
Brouwer-Sharp-Hossa
Kopecky-Bolland-Versteeg

to

Kopecky-Toews-Hossa
Ladd-Sharp-Kane
Byfuglien-Bolland-Versteeg
I meant that Kane, Sharp, and Versteeg did most of the damage after the lines got juggled in Game 4.

I remember thinking right at the outset of the series that Quenneville matching Byfuglien against Pronger was stupid. Of course big, slow, strong Pronger is going to neutralize big, slow, strong Byfuglien. Pronger's lack of mobility down low should have been exploited by players like Versteeg, Kane, and Hossa from the word go. Thankfully for the Hawks, Quenneville finally clued in after four games, and Pronger got pole-axed from that point onwards.

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01-05-2013, 01:27 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
There was no one good candidate, so the captain gets it by default. Essentially the same reason Niedermayer got it in 2007.
How can you even back this up, there is always a best player in the playoffs right?

At the very least there is in most years if not a clear winner then a group of players worthy.

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01-05-2013, 01:45 PM
  #56
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
- Well, only according to the scoresheet was he really effective against San Jose. He was of pretty minimal importance as I recall throughout. Borderline invisible vs. his alleged near Conn Smythe worthy performance expectations. So, basically, he caused "chaos" against Vancouver and it somehow influenced an in-game adjustment in game 4 of a series that happened a month later? I just didn't understand the connection you made between "chaos vs. Vancouver" and lineup changes vs. Philadelphia. I tried to bridge the gap, but I just couldn't figure it out to be honest...
As much as you may want to criticize his actual play against the Sharks, it's pretty tough to discount a player who scored the winning goal either late in the third period or in OT in three of the four wins. Byfuglien may not have been the physical force he was against the Canucks, but if the only thing a player does is go out and score the decisive goal, not once but THREE times, I think most coaches will take it.

In trying to "bridge the gap", keep in mind that until Game 4 against Philly, Chicago had pretty much rolled for the last month. They had never lost back to back games up to that point, and hadn't faced any real adversity since Game 2 against Vancouver. Quenneville had to blow up his line combos, because for the last month everything had been working so well and there had been no need to adjust anything. Putting Buff up with Toews and Kane had turned the tide against the Canucks, and proven to be a winning formula against the Sharks. He wasn't just going to adandon this at the first sign of trouble. He (erroneously) thought of Buff as his "ace in the hole" against Pronger, probably because that's basically what he'd been against Vancouver and San Jose.

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01-05-2013, 04:04 PM
  #57
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Keith was by far the best dman in the NHL in 2010, from day 1 of the season to the cup win. He should have edged out Toews for Conn Smythe, even though Toews was a beast in the finals and had I think 4 points in the last 2 games vs Van.

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01-05-2013, 06:20 PM
  #58
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It's interesting that Pronger could legitimately have joined Patrick Roy as the only three-time Conn Smythe Trophy winners and nobody would have batted an eye, yet he has none. I wonder if it points to him being disliked in the media, as he always comes across as a little arrogant.

2006: He should have won that one. No question. Cam Ward played well, but at no point did I think "wow, Ward is really dictating how these playoffs are going!". I grant that anytime a rookie goalie comes in and does so well when he's needed it's really impressive and a nice story for the media, but Pronger was incredible that year. And I hate the Oilers.

2007: Odd year, in my opinion the Conn Smythe was almost completely undefined in that year. That said, I personally strongly felt it should have gone to Pahlsson, followed by Niedermayer, followed by Pronger.

2010: To me, going into the finals it was Toews or Keith. I don't think it was ever Kane. But Pronger was so amazing throughout the playoffs. I really feel like he carried Philly the same way he carried Edmonton. Toews would have been the no-brainer if he had continued his scoring into the finals, but he was neutralized quite well by Pronger there. Duncan Keith was amazing that whole calendar year. He was just perfect out there, was reading the game incredibly well.
But in terms of carrying an entire defense/goalie, I thought Pronger really should have gotten the Conn Smythe that year.


So in my humble opinion that's one Pronger was robbed of in 06, one he possibly should have won in 10, and one that he could have won in 07. Yet he has none.

We know what kind of player Pronger is/was, but in 50 years I think it'll make a difference in the esteem he is held in, even despite the Hart Trophy.


Last edited by MarkusNaslund19: 01-08-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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01-05-2013, 07:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by MarkusNaslund19 View Post
It's interesting that Pronger could legitimately have joined Patrick Roy as the only three-time Conn Smythe Trophy winners and nobody would have batted an eye, yet he has none. I wonder if it points to him being disliked in the media, as he always comes across as a little arrogant.

2006: He should have won that one. No question. Cam Ward played well, but at no point did I think "wow, Ward is really dictating how these playoffs are going!". I grant that anytime a rookie goalie comes in and does so well when he's needed it's really impressive and a nice story for the media, but Pronger was incredible that year. And I hate the Oilers.

2007: Odd year, in my opinion the Conn Smythe was almost completely undefined in that year. That said, I personally strongly felt it should have gone to Pahlsson, followed by Niedermayer, followed by Pronger.

2010: To me, going into the finals it was Toews or Keith. I don't think it was ever Kane. But Pronger was so amazing throughout the playoffs. I really feel like he carried Philly the same way he carried Chicago. Toews would have been the no-brainer if he had continued his scoring into the finals, but he was neutralized quite well by Pronger there. Duncan Keith was amazing that whole calendar year. He was just perfect out there, was reading the game incredibly well.
But in terms of carrying an entire defense/goalie, I thought Pronger really should have gotten the Conn Smythe that year.


So in my humble opinion that's one Pronger was robbed of in 06, one he possibly should have won in 10, and one that he could have won in 07. Yet he has none.

We know what kind of player Pronger is/was, but in 50 years I think it'll make a difference in the esteem he is held in, even despite the Hart Trophy.
He is the guy that probably should have been Larry Robinson, with a Potvin mean streak. Could have easily been around the 5th best defenseman where Lidstrom sits if not for some injuries. The key word is "could". That being said he'll still go down as a great player of his generation, and a very memorable one. Had a mean streak in him that I wouldn't trade for all the tea in China.

But it isn't necessarily a travesty that he never won a Smythe. 2006 he is on the losing end. If you are a Smythe winner on a losing side the opposing team can't have a player that peaked really high and they never do. Crozier (1966), Hall (1968), Leach (1976), Hextall (1987) and Giguere (2003) all won in years where their opponents didn't have a player who blew everyone's socks off. The best is Gretzky in 1987, or Anderson. In 2006 you had a trifecta of Staal, Ward and BrindAmour. A Carolina win and one of those three wins it. I've always maintained I choose Staal, but the Canes had some impressive players who peaked high that spring.

2010, I still prefer Briere if we are only talking about Flyers, but that's just me. That being said he wasn't jobbed out of the Smythe because there was a trio of Hawks that could have won it as well.

2007 is when I voted he wins it, and deserved it. In my opinion it didn't mean a whole lot that the Ducks won both games when he was on suspension. Pronger was an intimidating force, I actually kind of liked that he went over the edge that spring. That Ducks team was partially built around intimidation and Pronger fit that bill. He deserved it in 2007 in my opinion.

But again, it wasn't clear cut which leads me to believe there is no proof that the media ignored the guy out of spite.

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01-05-2013, 09:13 PM
  #60
Mike Farkas
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
As much as you may want to criticize his actual play
Not to nitpick this part of your post, because it was taken with good spirits and wasn't really disagreeable as a whole, but the quoted is my aim. A coach will "take" a timely goal, yes, but a good coach doesn't allow the wool to be pulled over his eyes. 59 minutes of crap isn't necessarily undone by a goal in the last one. A win helps cover blemishes, certainly, but you can slap as much lipstick on a pig as you want, I'm not kissing it...

Example that's fresh in my head (I just did a 2000+ word article on the WJCs without stats basically, just notes and memory, so I can't think of much else right now...) : Yaroslav Kosov records a natural hat trick against Germany and wasn't named as Russia's best player. On paper, he looks great. On the ice, the goals were of immaterial and didn't hold a ton of value. The directorate (or whomever) made the right choice. Here, I'm scared there'd be a thread "Who should have won player of the game on Dec. 29, 2012 vs. Germany?"

Some (many? C1958?) teams assign grades to their players after each game...usually the coaches get together with the GM and talk about it and hand out a grade (1 to 10 isn't at all uncommon). Byfuglien scoring a goal might turn a 5 or 6 into a 6 or 7 for them, but it doesn't turn a 5 or 6 into a 9 or 10...that's what I'm trying to say. You nailed it, actual play...

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01-05-2013, 10:46 PM
  #61
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Are we seriously pretending a hattrick in a meaningless game against terrible competition in a contest that was already 4-0 is comparable to somebody who scored four meaningful goals in four games in the NHL playoffs?

I know you're just going to use the "it was the first thing to come to my head" defense, but really, you couldn't have found a less insulting comparison?

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01-05-2013, 10:53 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Are we seriously pretending a hattrick in a meaningless game against terrible competition in a contest that was already 4-0 is comparable to somebody who scored four meaningful goals in four games in the NHL playoffs?

I know you're just going to use the "it was the first thing to come to my head" defense, but really, you couldn't have found a less insulting comparison?
It was the first thing to come to my head.

...we aren't pretending anything...well...I'm not. The point wasn't a comparison of Kosov to Byfuglien (in fact, the latter's name doesn't appear in my post at all til the end- it doesn't appear to be the main topic of conversation either), it was an example of how stats can lead us astray sometimes.

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01-06-2013, 08:23 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Puckgenius View Post
Keith was by far the best dman in the NHL in 2010, from day 1 of the season to the cup win. He should have edged out Toews for Conn Smythe, even though Toews was a beast in the finals and had I think 4 points in the last 2 games vs Van.
The SCF was Toews worst series that year.. only had 3 assists in 6 games and zero goals.

Kane meanwhile had 3 goals and 8 points in the final.

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01-07-2013, 01:20 AM
  #64
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Strongly disagree there.

He scored a goal in every single game of the San Jose series and I believe 3 game winners.

He wasn't good during the start of the Philly series but rebounded there too.
He's still ******** he wrote an article a month before those playoffs saying Buff wasn't good enough to be an NHL player
That thread became hilarious.

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01-07-2013, 01:39 AM
  #65
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He's still ******** he wrote an article a month before those playoffs saying Buff wasn't good enough to be an NHL player
That thread became hilarious.
******** or not, Mike Farkas is absolutely right about Byfuglien lacking hockey sense and being an overall liability.

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01-07-2013, 06:10 AM
  #66
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The Chicago coaching staff doesn't seem to think Keith is better defensively. They have consistently given Seabrook (not Keith) among the toughest range of defensive assignments in the NHL over the last 5 seasons.
Who cares?
The eye test will tell you Keith is better defensively that season. Heck a few of us on this forum were talking about how good Keith was defensively in 2008 before anyone else were giving him credit for anything.

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01-07-2013, 01:34 PM
  #67
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Who cares?
The eye test will tell you Keith is better defensively that season. Heck a few of us on this forum were talking about how good Keith was defensively in 2008 before anyone else were giving him credit for anything.
What I'm saying is that our "eye test" isn't as important or relevant as theirs.

That said, I know Keith was awesome defensively that season and for two seasons before that I, too, saw him as a darkhorse up and coming elite guy. But I think Seabrook, strictly defensively speaking, is on another level.

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