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Old
01-06-2013, 11:25 PM
  #26
SilasAdams
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When fully healthy

Erat-Fisher-Sk
Smith-Legwand-Wilson (Our best line to start last year)
Bourque-Spaling-Hornqvist
Halischuk-Gaustad-Yip/Beck/Mcgratten/Latta


Weber-Josi
Ellis-Gill
Klein-Hannan/Blum/
This

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01-06-2013, 11:43 PM
  #27
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FWIW, Bourque will be out due to injury.

Wilson - Legwand - Smith was definitely scoring a ton to start the season last year, but they were awful defensively and that's why they were broken up. I'd look for one of Wilson or Smith to start in the top-6 flanking Legwand and Hornqvist on the other wing.

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01-07-2013, 08:07 AM
  #28
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nice to see you havent lost your flair for hyperbole during the lockout. this team is exactly two players (Ryan Suter and Jordin Tootoo) different than the team that should have made the WCF's last year...

Suter is good, but his absence doesnt change us from legit cup contender to fire sale quality.

and surely you arent going to argue that losing Tootoo is going to hinder us dramatically?
Tootoo's departure is one of the few positives about the offseason.

Suter is gone. I get that, and it's apparent that he never had any intention of returning. My irritation comes when all along, Poile and even Trotz spoke of "several plan Bs," with Trotz in particular saying that Josi wasn't quite there yet.

Suter signs with Minnesota, and less than a week later, Poile and Trotz are both raving about Josi and what a seamless transition it's going to be.

You may buy that, and the majority of fans may buy that...sorry, I don't. Josi had a good rookie year, but it wasn't perfect. I'm not going to pretend that he's suddenly a 26 minute, all-situations defenseman that can even reasonably fill in for an elite, top 5 defenseman in the NHL...a lynchpin of a powerplay that finally clicked and a player in key defensive situations. That's assuming there's no sophomore slump, such as the one that sent Blum careening back to Milwaukee after a "strong rookie showing."

The simple fact is that the opening night roster will likely feature two defensemen that added together barely equal a full season (Josi - 52, Blum-56, Ellis -32). One of those playing big minutes.

From the forward perspective, our opening night Fs from last season are back, minus Tootoo and plus Gaustad. However, the roster that "should have been in the WCF(what does that even mean? we were flat out pimpslapped by the Coyotes)" lost those two guys that singlehandedly sunk the team while simultaneously ranking 1 and 2 in postseason points for the Predators. Chemistry issues or not, it's a lot of points that went out the door with nothing to replace them.

I'm not being negative for the sake of being negative. I'm not saying the roster is completely broken. However, we went into the offseason with two big needs: 1 top 4 (ideally, top 2) defenseman and 1 top six forward. We got neither. Instead, we're going to pretend that question marks in Josi and Wilson are suddenly sure things.

Poile likes to take a "wait and see what we've got" approach, but in a 48 game schedule, you don't have the luxury of time. Another disaster start like last season, and we're out before the season even begins.

I'm not rooting for it to happen, but this roster looks like a 12th or 13th place team. You can say that's hyperbole, but the only central team that looks remotely as bad on paper is Columbus. I don't think that's being negative for the sake of negativity.

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01-07-2013, 08:10 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
AK and rads were not on the team all year and honestly they didnt make us that much better, or else we'd have had a parade in June....

we were a top 5 team in the WC without either of them, and IMO we will be again this season if we avoid injuries...
There is zero chance we beat detroit without at least one of them. They may not have made much of a regular season difference, but they lead the team in scoring in the playoffs, and until the "incident" in Phoenix, most of us were clamoring to re-sign both of them.

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01-07-2013, 08:42 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Trade Legwand View Post
I'm pretty sure a couple weeks at least.
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
Latest I heard was about 3 more weeks.
Thanks guys. He's (Bourque) a big piece. I hope he can come back soon and keep some momentum from last season.

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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
We need progress from Smith, Wilson, Josi, Ellis, Blum, and Bourque, but we can and will compete
This is the key, whether it's a shortened season or not. We are a young team and if these guys can't take the next step (waiting on you, Wilson), then we're toast.

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01-07-2013, 08:45 AM
  #31
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There is zero chance we beat detroit without at least one of them. They may not have made much of a regular season difference, but they lead the team in scoring in the playoffs, and until the "incident" in Phoenix, most of us were clamoring to re-sign both of them.
again, total hyperbole.

we beat detroit 4-1. we would have had a harder time but its not out of the question. we certainly beat them in the regular season without them. And in any case thats not apples to apples... compared to how we started last season we are in as good a shape if not better with the single exception of Suter. I imagine Poile will add pieces at the deadline this year just like last year...

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01-07-2013, 08:48 AM
  #32
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If we have a shot at Seth Jones (barring a lottery miracle), Barry Trotz may not have a job...Jones will go #2 or #3.
every team in the lottery will have a chance at a top pick. we could miss by a point and get the top pick

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01-07-2013, 08:51 AM
  #33
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I think being young will actually help us in a compressed schedule. Won't lose legs as fast as some of the vets.


Are we sure SK is coming back? I'd wait to see the "whites of his eyes" as trotz would say, before penciling him in. He is having great success in the KHL and is being treated like a star. Wouldn't surprise me if he stayed.

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01-07-2013, 08:56 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
again, total hyperbole.

we beat detroit 4-1. we would have had a harder time but its not out of the question. we certainly beat them in the regular season without them. And in any case thats not apples to apples... compared to how we started last season we are in as good a shape if not better with the single exception of Suter. I imagine Poile will add pieces at the deadline this year just like last year...
If saying we would have struggled to beat Detroit without the two guys doing most of the scoring is hyperbole, what is marginalizing the loss of Suter? you keep saying "all we lost was Suter," like we weren't a considerably weaker team every time he missed games.

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01-07-2013, 08:58 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
I think being young will actually help us in a compressed schedule. Won't lose legs as fast as some of the vets.


Are we sure SK is coming back? I'd wait to see the "whites of his eyes" as trotz would say, before penciling him in. He is having great success in the KHL and is being treated like a star. Wouldn't surprise me if he stayed.
I'm curious about that as well. I'm an SK74 fan, but it seemed like he was rubbed the wrong way by treatment of his brother, and with Uncle Bob's report that the KHL is offering financial incentives for NHL players to stay the rest of the season...he seems like someone they would target.

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01-07-2013, 09:07 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
Tootoo's departure is one of the few positives about the offseason.

Suter is gone. I get that, and it's apparent that he never had any intention of returning. My irritation comes when all along, Poile and even Trotz spoke of "several plan Bs," with Trotz in particular saying that Josi wasn't quite there yet.

Suter signs with Minnesota, and less than a week later, Poile and Trotz are both raving about Josi and what a seamless transition it's going to be.

You may buy that, and the majority of fans may buy that...sorry, I don't. Josi had a good rookie year, but it wasn't perfect. I'm not going to pretend that he's suddenly a 26 minute, all-situations defenseman that can even reasonably fill in for an elite, top 5 defenseman in the NHL...a lynchpin of a powerplay that finally clicked and a player in key defensive situations. That's assuming there's no sophomore slump, such as the one that sent Blum careening back to Milwaukee after a "strong rookie showing."

The simple fact is that the opening night roster will likely feature two defensemen that added together barely equal a full season (Josi - 52, Blum-56, Ellis -32). One of those playing big minutes.

From the forward perspective, our opening night Fs from last season are back, minus Tootoo and plus Gaustad. However, the roster that "should have been in the WCF(what does that even mean? we were flat out pimpslapped by the Coyotes)" lost those two guys that singlehandedly sunk the team while simultaneously ranking 1 and 2 in postseason points for the Predators. Chemistry issues or not, it's a lot of points that went out the door with nothing to replace them.

I'm not being negative for the sake of being negative. I'm not saying the roster is completely broken. However, we went into the offseason with two big needs: 1 top 4 (ideally, top 2) defenseman and 1 top six forward. We got neither. Instead, we're going to pretend that question marks in Josi and Wilson are suddenly sure things.

Poile likes to take a "wait and see what we've got" approach, but in a 48 game schedule, you don't have the luxury of time. Another disaster start like last season, and we're out before the season even begins.

I'm not rooting for it to happen, but this roster looks like a 12th or 13th place team. You can say that's hyperbole, but the only central team that looks remotely as bad on paper is Columbus. I don't think that's being negative for the sake of negativity.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Exactly my thoughts on our roster.

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01-07-2013, 09:50 AM
  #37
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If saying we would have struggled to beat Detroit without the two guys doing most of the scoring is hyperbole, what is marginalizing the loss of Suter? you keep saying "all we lost was Suter," like we weren't a considerably weaker team every time he missed games.
my point is you cant pick things out of a vacuum and make comparisons that arent legit.

our roster today is, other than Suter, the same or better(Gaustad>Smithson) than the start of last season, and we were the #4 seed and realistically the #2 or 3 team in the WC.... and that was without Rads or AK....

the Blackhawks are still weak in goal, and added nobody, the Wings lost as much on defense as we did, the Blues added nobody.. how that adds up to "the only central team that looks remotely as bad on paper is Columbus" is mind boggling to me...

I think we are as likely as any team to win the central....

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01-07-2013, 09:59 AM
  #38
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Regarding Suter, it would seem this mostly falls on Josi and Hannan. IF Josi can continue progressing and IF Hannan can pan out and become a decent replacement of Josi in the 2nd pairing, it may not be so bad. If we get a slumping Josi (case of the Blums), then we're in trouble.

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01-07-2013, 10:15 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
my point is you cant pick things out of a vacuum and make comparisons that arent legit.

our roster today is, other than Suter, the same or better(Gaustad>Smithson) than the start of last season, and we were the #4 seed and realistically the #2 or 3 team in the WC.... and that was without Rads or AK....

the Blackhawks are still weak in goal, and added nobody, the Wings lost as much on defense as we did, the Blues added nobody.. how that adds up to "the only central team that looks remotely as bad on paper is Columbus" is mind boggling to me...

I think we are as likely as any team to win the central....
But losing Suter is a HUGE LOSS. That's what you're not acknowledging! I'm not griping about the forwards!

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01-07-2013, 10:20 AM
  #40
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I agree with OurGoc pretty much. I am more optimistic about our forwards (Smith and Wilson I'm hoping are bright spots), but just as pessimistic about our defense. SLake replied to me in the Blum thread with a lengthy post about why we thought we would be in pretty good shape on D which is quoted below. Still think the margin for error / injury is non-existent when you're guaranteed to start two near-rookies and may end up starting three depending on injuries.

Quote:
Cashville
That Klein / Hannan 2nd pairing scares me. Hannan is not a second pairing defenseman. This whole season hinges on Josi; if he can't handle first pairing match-ups and minutes, then we are screwed. Yes, he was awesome last year, but Blum was pretty solid his first half-season up in 2010-11 and look where we are now.

In short, for this season, I think our defense has almost no upside, and a whole whole lot of downside potential.

SLake
I strongly disagree. Josi has shown himself for a season now and you can say that he hasn't yet shown the ability to stay healthy for a full season yet, but to believe that the odds are in favor of him regressing like Blum did is not the case. Unlike Blum, Josi has played against men from the age of 15 and excelled. He has gone from an offensive PP specialist type to a two-way offensive defenseman as he has continued to mature. I believe that Josi has proven that he can play as a No. 3 defenseman already and with Weber by his side, will have a partner back there that he can lean on a little as he adjusts to the No. 2 role.

Hannan was someone that the team has wanted for two seasons now. Is he the Scott Hannan that dominated Forsberg and others in the playoffs for San Jose pre-lockout? No, but he is still a solid veteran defenseman that can play a simple game and provide Klein with a steady partner on the PK and at even-strength.

Gill provides a veteran BIG bodied stay-at-home partner for whomever he pairs with and I could see that being either Ellis or Blum depending on their respective performances and the matchups. FWIW, the Nashville brass has been in Milwaukee a lot since the start of the lockout and are there again this weekend watching the prospects to see who is ready for an opportunity and who is likely going to stay should the lockout be lifted.

Are there question marks on defense? Sure, but is it a weakness of the team? I don't believe it will be. The loss of Suter cannot be understated, but it's also an opportunity for others to grow and step up given new roles. We are deep on defense and I believe that if given the chance to play, the players will show that.

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01-07-2013, 10:34 AM
  #41
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The defense is the big question mark to me. You pretty much know what you're going to get out of the forwards - no big star names. Lots of gritty two-way plot, scoring goals by getting bodies to the front of the net. A couple of guys in the upper twenties with goals, MAYBE one thirty-goal scorer. Several guys around the 20-goal mark (just over or just under).

With Suter leaving, though, the defense becomes somewhat undefined. To me the whole issue revolves around one question - can Blum step back up to the solid second-pairing defenseman he appeared to be when he was first called up, or was that a fluke? If he can regain the form he had a couple of years ago and he and Klein can get their chemistry back, this could actually be a really good defensive corps. If he struggles on the ice and gets relegated to the role of 7th dman, then I think it's an average defense at best. Hannan is not someone I want to rely on for 2nd-pair minutes night in and night out. Especially not in a condensed season.

So I'm hoping Blum steps up and takes the second pairing job with Klein. Then if Josi plays with Weber and those two can find some chemistry you have a good specialist/third pairing in Ellis and Gill, with Hannan ready to step in where needed in relief and for injuries.

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01-07-2013, 10:43 AM
  #42
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Josi is the single most critical player on our team this year. We know what we have in Weber and Rinne, so they are expected to be awesome, but Josi HAS to be a top pairing defenseman. If he "Blums" this one and is awful, we are absolutely done. If he continues to progress and fills in Suter's hole, at least somewhat, we'll be ok.

Ellis, I'm not worried about. Hannan played top 4 last year and could be a very under-rated addition. Gill is Gill. Klein is Klein, but he really looked like he turned a corner in the Detroit series. Josi is the wild card.

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01-07-2013, 11:28 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
But losing Suter is a HUGE LOSS. That's what you're not acknowledging! I'm not griping about the forwards!
Its not such a huge loss that it drops us from 2-3 to 12-13. We played stretches without Suter, Weber, and Rinne in the last couple of years and didnt crap the bed that bad.

sorry, it probably keeps us from being the clear favorite in the central but it doesnt make us a lottery team.


for comparison sake, look at Philly post pronger... not dominant but not chopped liver either.

and for that matter if we are 12-13 are you projecting the Wings as 13-14? seems they finished below us last year and lost Lidstrom, which should be about equivalent to us losing Suter... following your logic the Preds, Wings and Jackets look to be the bottom 3 teams in the West.... yeah that makes sense...

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01-07-2013, 04:13 PM
  #44
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Losing Suter has made Weber a less effective player. Weber is not a good puck moving Dman. Josi reminds me of Weber in his first couple years the guy is going to be a stud, but he is not great moving the puck either. I look for growing pains on D until Trotz gets the parings to work.

The best offseason move is Tootoo being gone and signing Goose will pay off long term. Heck the faceoff skills alone improves the team. Not to mention the guy has grit and those who think he will be 4th line are on some good drugs.

Now for the resident Nose picker here. I remember the man crush you have always had for Mason but this is the worst move made in the off season. He was a good back-up goalie when he was here before, failed miserablly as a starter for three teams and now is back. It may be the difference in making the playoffs. Also recall He was the reason I shaved my head and its not a personal thing with the guy, hes a great team member and good in the public. But he lost the starting job to DAN ELLIS. Pekka better be bullet proof.

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01-07-2013, 04:14 PM
  #45
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In terms of health Poile says Bourque is the only player who is out. Lower body, two weeks...

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01-07-2013, 04:25 PM
  #46
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Now for the resident Nose picker here. I remember the man crush you have always had for Mason but this is the worst move made in the off season. He was a good back-up goalie when he was here before, failed miserably as a starter for three teams and now is back. It may be the difference in making the playoffs. Also recall He was the reason I shaved my head and its not a personal thing with the guy, hes a great team member and good in the public. But he lost the starting job to DAN ELLIS. Pekka better be bullet proof.
IIRC, all three of those teams were god awful. First off, I can only think of two (Blues, Thrashers/Jets), but regardless, we have a better system. And who would you rather have brought in? He was one of the better Gs available, had a great run here before, and will be a fine backup goalie IMO.

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01-07-2013, 05:11 PM
  #47
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Losing Suter has made Weber a less effective player. Weber is not a good puck moving Dman. Josi reminds me of Weber in his first couple years the guy is going to be a stud, but he is not great moving the puck either. I look for growing pains on D until Trotz gets the parings to work.

The best offseason move is Tootoo being gone and signing Goose will pay off long term. Heck the faceoff skills alone improves the team. Not to mention the guy has grit and those who think he will be 4th line are on some good drugs.

Now for the resident Nose picker here. I remember the man crush you have always had for Mason but this is the worst move made in the off season. He was a good back-up goalie when he was here before, failed miserablly as a starter for three teams and now is back. It may be the difference in making the playoffs. Also recall He was the reason I shaved my head and its not a personal thing with the guy, hes a great team member and good in the public. But he lost the starting job to DAN ELLIS. Pekka better be bullet proof.
haha I remember it all Byrddog... trust me, my only hope is for mason to be as effective as any other backup... in this shortened seaosn I would expect him to play about 8 games, and if he can get 6-8 points out of those games, its all good.

Everyone knows that if Rinne goes down we're hosed and I would not make any argument otherwise. But at the same time we really cant afford to pay a top flight backup to sitfor 65 games a year either. So among the choices for a backup goalie on the cheap, Mason was as good as anyone else that would have been available, and at least he knows the system...

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01-07-2013, 07:49 PM
  #48
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What did Erat do during the lockout?

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01-07-2013, 08:17 PM
  #49
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What did Erat do during the lockout?
euro dance

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01-07-2013, 08:28 PM
  #50
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I think Bartley will make the team on the bottom pair
Not gonna happen. That could leave the Admirals with 4 D-men, unless Blum or Ellis are staying.

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