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How should the Jets handle Scheifele?

View Poll Results: How should be handle Scheifele?
Keep him down in Barrie, no camp 17 9.94%
Bring him to camp and a few games to gain experience, but send him back down regardless of results 66 38.60%
Bring him to camp and a few games, keep him if he performs 81 47.37%
He should stay up no matter what, he's NHL ready and we need him 7 4.09%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-07-2013, 09:19 AM
  #76
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I know this thread is specifically about Scheifele, but he should be treated no differently than any other player.

I would love to see the franchise evaluate Scheifele and every other player on a year to year basis. Send the message to the players that nobody has a free walk on this team. If you show up to camp and you perform better than someone that was here last season, then maybe you get kept and the other guy gets moved out.

I know this can't be done for every player especially those that just signed long term contracts, but I would like people to be playing on merit and not just because they signed. JMO...

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01-07-2013, 10:36 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by jiho View Post
NHL tested? Yes, but what has he proven? Sure he works hard and can figure skate with anyone but he doesn't accomplish very much. I do not see him developing into a very good offensive player. I would hate to play on a line with him and Kane as you would never see the puck playing with those two. He is not a playmaker. He is not a goal scorer. I can see him as a hard working, third line energy guy, reliable defensively and kills penalties.
please see garrets thorough statistical breakdown of burmistrov.

he has proven he is a capable defensive third line player who shows flashes of offense but lack consistancy in that regard.

Scheifele has shown he can dominate junior, do well on an international U20 stage, score a lot of goals in 5 games against nhl/ahl fillins, do very little for 9 against only NHL players, and play capable defensive role against AHL players in the playoffs.


absolutely none of that translates to a "a capable defensive third line player who shows flashes of offense but lack consistancy in that regard". Even if Scheifele comes up and plays better then burmi, that doesn't make your statement correct, it means THEN he is a better player then burmi, not "now".

Unrelated to the quote:
Frankly i'm pretty disappointed by the amount of "keep him in barrie regardless" and "send him back regardless" answers.

What does that say to anyone in the organization? "Hey you looked downright great in camp, BUT, due to contract status and other ******** that doesn't factor into actually winning games, we're going to send you back". IMO that does just as much harm as "rushing" a player.

if that was me, i'd be pissed, and i'd be looking for the first ticket out of town. At this level, you play to win, and whoever makes the team better, is who should be on the roster.

. And i agree with hank, Top six would be good, but i also agree that third line minutes with the big boys is probably better then continuing to beat up on junior players in Barrie, you don't improve without raising the bar.

edit: i posted this before finishing reading up on the thread and though it was one of the rare times i disagreed with garret...but now that i've read ahead i see he's come around...that was close...


Last edited by Grind: 01-07-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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01-07-2013, 10:43 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
Unrelated to the quote:
Frankly i'm pretty disappointed by the amount of "keep him in barrie regardless" and "send him back regardless" answers.

What does that say to anyone in the organization? "Hey you looked downright great in camp, BUT, due to contract status and other ******** that doesn't factor into actually winning games, we're going to send you back". IMO that does just as much harm as "rushing" a player.

if that was me, i'd be pissed, and i'd be looking for the first ticket out of town. At this level, you play to win, and whoever makes the team better, is who should be on the roster.

. And i agree with hank, Top six would be good, but i also agree that third line minutes with the big boys is probably better then continuing to beat up on junior players in Barrie, you don't improve without raising the bar.
100% agree. If I'd be Scheifele, show the performance and EARN my spot on the roster, I would be pissed to be sent down "just because they can".

I have no doubt that the coaches and Cheveldayoff think about Mark in the same way. They wanted to give him "every chance to play and stick with the Jets" last year, but he didn't convinced enough to do it. Why should the attitude have changed? Makes no sense after the season he had.

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01-07-2013, 11:12 AM
  #79
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This is pretty interesting debate because there are merits to all sides of the argument.

I would like to add a few additional pieces of information to digest this morning.

Firstly. For those of us that think Mark might need more time in Barrie because it would be great for him to get quality minutes (PP, PK, 1st line), which I have been firmly planted in, we might need a revisit. I think it is important to remember that due to the lockout Mark has had the unique opportunity of getting the best of both worlds. We were not forced to make the tough call in the fall and we were able to kick the can down the road and therefore Mark has already played 29 games in Barrie (vs. the 47 regular season games last year) where he has dominated night in night out and he has had almost a month with team Canada and put in a very solid WJC where he improved his performance over last year. One has to ask now what is left for Mark to learn in Barrie? Perhaps he could learn how to put a full season together because last year he hit a big wall at this exact point in time (or some would say it was during the WJC) but then really picked it up for the OHL playoffs. Not like we didn't send him back and stunted his growth this year he has had a half year and a WJC and now we have a historical opportunity to do a mid season evaluation of a prospect after they have already benefitted allot from developing in the OHL

Secondly. I heard Ken Hitchock talk twice on the dynamics of coming off this lock out and the challenges that teams will face. It was a great interview but I will cherry pick the part that is relevant to this debate. Ken said that one of the huge challenges will be team chemistry due to the fact that some guys have been playing in Europe and others have been playing shinny and that variance will cause havoc. He also said that it will be about quality minutes not quantity and that for at least a month players you are use to counting on for big minutes will not be able to give you those minutes at a high level and more than ever you will need bottom pairing D and bottom 6 forwards to pull a big load. It got me thinking that the Jets may actually need Mark to compete and make the run for the playoffs.

So let's play this out then. So Mark is going to come to training camp and be available to Barrie at the earliest for their game on January 24th and that would leave 22 OHL games plus playoffs for Mark to work on his game. Now subtract 9 games off the 22 if Winnipeg deems they could use Mark's help with the Jets to get off on the right foot. That would leave Mark about 13 OHL games plus playoffs left.

At this point do we really believe that Mark would develop more playing 22 games plus playoffs in the OHL or play 48 games with the Jets (plus maybe some playoffs)??

Now if Mark isn't ready then this is an easy call Mark can go back to the Colts and finish up strong which would leave the door open to having Mark spend time in the AHL next year if that is needed. However, I think we have to let this play out because unless the situation is too big for him Scheif might actually learn and grow more by joining the parent club now even in a more limited capacity.

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01-07-2013, 11:32 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
This is pretty interesting debate because there are merits to all sides of the argument.

I would like to add a few additional pieces of information to digest this morning.

Firstly. For those of us that think Mark might need more time in Barrie because it would be great for him to get quality minutes (PP, PK, 1st line), which I have been firmly planted in, we might need a revisit. I think it is important to remember that due to the lockout Mark has had the unique opportunity of getting the best of both worlds. We were not forced to make the tough call in the fall and we were able to kick the can down the road and therefore Mark has already played 29 games in Barrie (vs. the 47 regular season games last year) where he has dominated night in night out and he has had almost a month with team Canada and put in a very solid WJC where he improved his performance over last year. One has to ask now what is left for Mark to learn in Barrie? Perhaps he could learn how to put a full season together because last year he hit a big wall at this exact point in time (or some would say it was during the WJC) but then really picked it up for the OHL playoffs. Not like we didn't send him back and stunted his growth this year he has had a half year and a WJC and now we have a historical opportunity to do a mid season evaluation of a prospect after they have already benefitted allot from developing in the OHL

Secondly. I heard Ken Hitchock talk twice on the dynamics of coming off this lock out and the challenges that teams will face. It was a great interview but I will cherry pick the part that is relevant to this debate. Ken said that one of the huge challenges will be team chemistry due to the fact that some guys have been playing in Europe and others have been playing shinny and that variance will cause havoc. He also said that it will be about quality minutes not quantity and that for at least a month players you are use to counting on for big minutes will not be able to give you those minutes at a high level and more than ever you will need bottom pairing D and bottom 6 forwards to pull a big load. It got me thinking that the Jets may actually need Mark to compete and make the run for the playoffs.

So let's play this out then. So Mark is going to come to training camp and be available to Barrie at the earliest for their game on January 24th and that would leave 22 OHL games plus playoffs for Mark to work on his game. Now subtract 9 games off the 22 if Winnipeg deems they could use Mark's help with the Jets to get off on the right foot. That would leave Mark about 13 OHL games plus playoffs left.

At this point do we really believe that Mark would develop more playing 22 games plus playoffs in the OHL or play 48 games with the Jets (plus maybe some playoffs)??

Now if Mark isn't ready then this is an easy call Mark can go back to the Colts and finish up strong which would leave the door open to having Mark spend time in the AHL next year if that is needed. However, I think we have to let this play out because unless the situation is too big for him Scheif might actually learn and grow more by joining the parent club now even in a more limited capacity.

This is something I totally didn't consider- just how many games would scheif be going back for if he did get sent back?

personally that weighs the whole "development" thing even farther to the right IMO, because unless there are deep playoff runs by both barrie and st johns, he's going to end up playing more games if he stays in winnipeg.

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01-07-2013, 11:47 AM
  #81
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Great work there PS on comparing the games available to Mark between staying in the NHL or returning to Barrie after a 9 game stint.

If he is deemed ready in TC, that sure seems like a valid consideration IMO.

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01-07-2013, 11:49 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
personally that weighs the whole "development" thing even farther to the right IMO, because unless there are deep playoff runs by both barrie and st johns, he's going to end up playing more games if he stays in winnipeg.
Agreed.

Further, he will get better coaching in Winnipeg. If he makes the team he will be practicing with, and learning from, and will be pushed by players that are better than him. He has access to better fitness guidance here, to better nutritional guidance here. At a certain point his developmental curve will gain from additional challenge.

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01-07-2013, 12:32 PM
  #83
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Good point about the number of games he'd end up playing in Barrie to finish off the season. Another thing to consider: it's very possible that the IceCaps don't make the playoffs this year. That would put an end to Scheifele's year when the OHL playoffs are done.

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01-07-2013, 01:09 PM
  #84
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I have to agree, the shorter season indicates that he's more likely to stay in the NHL, not the other way around like many indicate.

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01-07-2013, 01:46 PM
  #85
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After watching Detroits guys from the last decade all slowly work their way up the depth chart year by year, I have to think this the best approach for Scheifele. And all our prospects for that matter.

Start out on the third line. When you've earned a spot to
Move up, you move up. If you can't handle the third line, play in the minors until you can.

I have no problem with Scheifele playing 12-14 mins a game with Antro/poni/Burmi etc if he earns it in camp.

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01-07-2013, 02:00 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
After watching Detroits guys from the last decade all slowly work their way up the depth chart year by year, I have to think this the best approach for Scheifele. And all our prospects for that matter.

Start out on the third line. When you've earned a spot to
Move up, you move up. If you can't handle the third line, play in the minors until you can.

I have no problem with Scheifele playing 12-14 mins a game with Antro/poni/Burmi etc if he earns it in camp.

This 1000%

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01-07-2013, 02:03 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
After watching Detroits guys from the last decade all slowly work their way up the depth chart year by year, I have to think this the best approach for Scheifele. And all our prospects for that matter.

Start out on the third line. When you've earned a spot to
Move up, you move up. If you can't handle the third line, play in the minors until you can.

I have no problem with Scheifele playing 12-14 mins a game with Antro/poni/Burmi etc if he earns it in camp.
Me either.

Scheifele isn't a top 6 bust type of player. He plays a smart possession game and he could handle a 3rd or 4th line role.

Whatever role on whatever team will make him better is the best course of action.

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01-07-2013, 02:24 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
After watching Detroits guys from the last decade all slowly work their way up the depth chart year by year, I have to think this the best approach for Scheifele. And all our prospects for that matter.

Start out on the third line. When you've earned a spot to
Move up, you move up. If you can't handle the third line, play in the minors until you can.

I have no problem with Scheifele playing 12-14 mins a game with Antro/poni/Burmi etc if he earns it in camp.
While I agree, the only thing I'd make clear is that if you earn the role, you've earned it. None of this sending a kid back because that's what MIGHT be best for his development (people forget that rushing is not the only way to bust a prospect, keeping him buried can do it too). If Scheifele has earned the right to play on this hockey team, and in our case this year he literally needs to steal a spot from Wellwood/Burmistrov/Antropov/etc, then he has earned the right to play and should be played.

Best players play, IMO, and if he proves ready than that's what his development calls for, there's no set path for prospects, no "road to Winnipeg leads through St. John's", every prospect is different and develops different. St. John's is just a tool to help, but not every player needs to go there...

Only exception's would be you don't want young kids not playing regularly (13/14 forwards) and you need to fill your roles right, Scheifele is better than Thorburn, but different roles, teams need all kinds, so he probably wouldn't be suited to 4th line, particularly if they will be sheltered and barely played again...

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01-07-2013, 02:31 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
After watching Detroits guys from the last decade all slowly work their way up the depth chart year by year, I have to think this the best approach for Scheifele. And all our prospects for that matter.

Start out on the third line. When you've earned a spot to
Move up, you move up. If you can't handle the third line, play in the minors until you can.

I have no problem with Scheifele playing 12-14 mins a game with Antro/poni/Burmi etc if he earns it in camp.
great post

Also what is not to like about Mark and or Burmi playing their a55 off between Poni and Antro? Think about how attractive it is to have eventual top 6 studs rounding out their games and learning to play toughs on our 3rd line with two savvy veterans! I would trust either Alex or Mark with that type of assignment as well (hopefully not both at the same time though).

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01-07-2013, 02:38 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
While I agree, the only thing I'd make clear is that if you earn the role, you've earned it. None of this sending a kid back because that's what MIGHT be best for his development (people forget that rushing is not the only way to bust a prospect, keeping him buried can do it too). If Scheifele has earned the right to play on this hockey team, and in our case this year he literally needs to steal a spot from Wellwood/Burmistrov/Antropov/etc, then he has earned the right to play and should be played.

Best players play, IMO, and if he proves ready than that's what his development calls for, there's no set path for prospects, no "road to Winnipeg leads through St. John's", every prospect is different and develops different. St. John's is just a tool to help, but not every player needs to go there...

Only exception's would be you don't want young kids not playing regularly (13/14 forwards) and you need to fill your roles right, Scheifele is better than Thorburn, but different roles, teams need all kinds, so he probably wouldn't be suited to 4th line, particularly if they will be sheltered and barely played again...
Rolling 4 lines may be more important this year than usual.

A 4th line that could be counted on for 10 minutes a game and to chip in offensively could be an asset.

A Mittens - Slater - Scheifele 4th line wouldn't make me sad.

Another set up could be:

Ladd - Little - Wheeler
Kane - Olli - Wellwood
Burmi - Scheifele - Antro
Poni - Slater - Mach / Thor

Just spit-balling here. No real preference. I do like the look of that though.

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01-07-2013, 02:46 PM
  #91
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Rolling 4 lines may be more important this year than usual.

A 4th line that could be counted on for 10 minutes a game and to chip in offensively could be an asset.

A Mittens - Slater - Scheifele 4th line wouldn't make me sad.

Another set up could be:

Ladd - Little - Wheeler
Kane - Olli - Wellwood
Burmi - Scheifele - Antro
Poni - Slater - Mach / Thor

Just spit-balling here. No real preference. I do like the look of that though.
Those 13 are actually the 13 forwards I would like to see (Miettinen as #14), maybe not the exact same lineup as you have, but close enough. The problem is having faith in Noel to actually role the lines and have even the slighest amount of faith in young guys...of which I have exactly none...I can see Noel going with a Mittens/Thor - Slater - Scheifele fourth line...playing them 4-6 minutes a night in sheltered minutes...then when Scheifele gets sent down in that situation claiming he wasn't ready

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01-07-2013, 03:15 PM
  #92
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I'd say he should play top 9 but only if Poni plays the 4th line, which means Burmistrov plays 2nd/3rd line. I don't want Burmi playing a checking role.

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01-07-2013, 07:44 PM
  #93
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The Jets aren't going to build organizational depth/talent by rushing people into the line-up.

Let him continue to develop... there will be a year where it's obvious that he's a man playing among boys... then off to the AHL. Alternatively, he might never be that... but rushing him to the big club and burning a year of his ELC for a bastardization of a mini-me season isn't the ticket.

By all means give him his 'x' games to see where he's developed but after that send him down.

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01-07-2013, 08:24 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by broinwhyteridge View Post
The Jets aren't going to build organizational depth/talent by rushing people into the line-up.

Let him continue to develop... there will be a year where it's obvious that he's a man playing among boys... then off to the AHL. Alternatively, he might never be that... but rushing him to the big club and burning a year of his ELC for a bastardization of a mini-me season isn't the ticket.

By all means give him his 'x' games to see where he's developed but after that send him down.
So if he earns an important role and shows he is a key contributor you just send him down because that's in your script? Like any NHL GM would do that.

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01-07-2013, 08:52 PM
  #95
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Invite him to camp, see what he does, let him get in a few more pre-season (if there are any) games, and whatever the max games he can play before being considered a rookie, then send him down to the minors unless he is legitimately earning a spot. If he plays like he deserves to be in the NHL, let him stay.

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01-07-2013, 08:53 PM
  #96
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Since Little is a natural RW, I think the ideal line-up, should Scheifele force his way on to the team, would be:

Kane-Jokinen-Little
Ladd-Scheifele-Wheeler
Poni-Burmi-Antro

Scheifele replaces Little, who in turn replaces Wellwood.

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01-07-2013, 08:54 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
While I agree, the only thing I'd make clear is that if you earn the role, you've earned it. None of this sending a kid back because that's what MIGHT be best for his development (people forget that rushing is not the only way to bust a prospect, keeping him buried can do it too). If Scheifele has earned the right to play on this hockey team, and in our case this year he literally needs to steal a spot from Wellwood/Burmistrov/Antropov/etc, then he has earned the right to play and should be played.

Best players play, IMO, and if he proves ready than that's what his development calls for, there's no set path for prospects, no "road to Winnipeg leads through St. John's", every prospect is different and develops different. St. John's is just a tool to help, but not every player needs to go there...

Only exception's would be you don't want young kids not playing regularly (13/14 forwards) and you need to fill your roles right, Scheifele is better than Thorburn, but different roles, teams need all kinds, so he probably wouldn't be suited to 4th line, particularly if they will be sheltered and barely played again...
I agree but would like to add a thought, this could be a year where Mark is NEEDED for the first 9 games and might even be needed past that point due to injuries and conditioning. It could be a unique opprotunity that he walks into a vaccume where players really struggle to get going and he is clearly one of 10 or 11 players that are in the top 9 rotation. if that is the case for the entire season and Scheif looks like he can handle it physically I would roll the dice. however I would hate the sheltered 4th line 5 minutes a game disconnect between Chevy and Noel in No mans land roll. I would Hope TNSE are a bit sharper than that? I am with you he has to "earn" his way into a top 9 spot. I just have a feeling we are Going to be battling injuries this year and might need 11 quality forwads ti fill the top 9.

If Mark sin't ready I have no issue with him going down and leading Barrie into the playoffs. he still needs to work on his size strength and skating if it's not quite his time so be it.


Last edited by ps241: 01-07-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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01-07-2013, 09:15 PM
  #98
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Mark is not making this team. Too much depth and they will not burn a year of his ELC for this season not to mention TNSE like to bring guys along slowy. He will not be here after his maximum game stint and he will go back to Barrie for a nice playoff run. With how it all went down this year all things are against him so lets not kid ourselves folks!

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01-09-2013, 08:49 AM
  #99
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If you look at last year the Jets found themselves in a hole pretty quick out of the gate and he was in that line up.

Some say this is a future number one center, I find that very hard to see. Number one centers need to produce huge numbers, they generally carry a teams offense. Is this kid the guy to produce 75 to 100 points for the Jets? I dunno about that. Those are serious numbers.

Last year's top five producing centers
Malkin
Stamkos
Spezza
Tavaras
Sedin

I simply don't see that level of play from Scheifele; to me he is a second line center at BEST and you should know, I'd love to be wrong about that. I watched the Canucks develop Kesler and he didn't simply step into the league in 03/04 and produce as he started to in 07/08. And Linden played a huge role in his development. Sundin helped take Kesler to another level too. Point is, I hate to break it to ya'll but the kid has work to do. Players like him are developed, players like Stamkos step into the league and score 23 goals in their first year. For him to make this team it needs to be in a bottom six role and he needs to learn from a journeyman center. The Jets have issues up the middle and the last guy I want him near is Antropov. I think Jokenin will be good for the team and he and Little really should be the top two guys in that line up. After that, you have Burmi and Wellwood most likely working the third line and then the forth should be Slater's. Ultimately, this will be 48 near playoff games and the 8 teams in the east that get that first will be in the second season. Keep in mind that guys will start dropping like flies with tweaked groins, sports hernias and hip flexors before long, he most likely will get a shot at some point however I certainly would err on the side of caution where starting the season with him in the middle is concerned. There's just too much at stake right now.

Thinking the Mark Scheifele should be inserted into an NHL lineup simply because of his try hard attitude is dangerous and idealistic and the bottom line is, he has to produce when the time comes. 1 goal in 7 games told me last year he simply wasn't ready. And that was while playing against nhlers who were in "October" mode, I can't imagine what would happen to the kid in February or March...That time of year could actually ruin him before he even starts...

Z

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01-09-2013, 09:09 AM
  #100
YWGinYYZ
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Z: I don't recall anyone stating that Scheifele doesn't have work to do, nor do I recall even the most optimistic / biggest Scheifele fans thinking that he "deserves" to be in the line-up. I do recall many comments stating that he has to PLAY his way into the line-up.

Also: I hope to heck that he's made progress since his 7 game stint last year - he's much more experienced, bigger, and has improved his skating. Let's see how it plays out during this short TC. If he's not ready, I don't think there are many that will be upset with him being sent back to Barrie, but the argument that he could contribute from the 4th or 3rd line in a defensive role is valid: he'd need to step his game up to the NHL level, but he's shown to be very responsible defensively at the OHL level.


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 01-09-2013 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Grindphone grammar
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