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Luongo: The Neverending Story

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01-07-2013, 11:20 AM
  #976
trbr86
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I am not sure that Mirtle's tweet means what some are saying it does. The "cap benefit recapture formula" was the PA's response to the NHL's desire that teams that signed the contracts get dinged with the penalties. From this article, it means this:



But I am not sure if that applies to the team that currently has the contract, or the team that signed the contract, or both. More info is needed before people assume Vancouver will be on the hook if RL retires early.
Using the language in that article, this is what Luongo's cap hit would like if he retired prior to his contract ending:



http://imgur.com/hFnqd

Just to make that clear, the number in the far right column would be the annual cap hit for every subsequent season.

Example 1: if Luongo retired prior to the 2017-2018 season, his cap-hit for the following five seasons would be 2.59m (12.96m divided by five seasons).

Example 2: If he retired prior to the 2020-2021 season, his cap hit would be 4.34m (8.67m divided by two seasons).


Last edited by trbr86: 01-07-2013 at 11:26 AM.
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01-07-2013, 11:21 AM
  #977
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
I'm sure youre right. But real life and reality will tell you Lou is not younger, this is not 5 years ago; so to talk about what could and couldnt happen is an absolute waste. The reality is this, the cap will go down next year, his contract cannot be burried, he is going to be 34 soon, and has a 5.3 cap hit till he is 42. That is the reality, and you are right about one thing, there is risk in aquiring him.
Right, and that risk prevents our demands of Gardiner+ For leaf fans to try and undercut that down to Komisarek inclusions is when things turn sour.

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01-07-2013, 11:23 AM
  #978
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
I'm sure youre right. But real life and reality will tell you Lou is not younger, this is not 5 years ago; so to talk about what could and couldnt happen is an absolute waste. The reality is this, the cap will go down next year, his contract cannot be burried, he is going to be 34 soon, and has a 5.3 cap hit till he is 42. That is the reality, and you are right about one thing, there is risk in aquiring him.
Actually the reality is this. Luongo is very likely to retire before the final 4 years of his deal are up because he gets paid peanuts and not worth his time. Also, looks like early reports are that Vancouver would be on the hook for his remaining cap if/when he retired. So acquiring team is getting an elite goalie at a cap hit of $5.3. That sounds like no risk high reward to me. If the reports are true about Vancouver being on the hook for his contract after retirement then the price just went way up.

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01-07-2013, 11:26 AM
  #979
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Unless it is relevant to today, rather than what was and what could be, as so many here seem to enoy doing it is a waste of time. The discusion is of today, and a potential trade involving Lou.
Evidently, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I'll explain.

"I was curious and looked up what Luongo was originally traded for when he went to Vancouver. I think his value is probably a little higher but not much IMO:" - Coolburn

Coolburn is saying Luongo's value has perhaps slightly rose from what it was upon being traded, if it has at all. Therefore, I compared the players traded at that time to what would be their equivalency today, going along the outline Coolburn established. If you do not agree, by all means, don't. However, do not question the context of a post you are clearly misreading.

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01-07-2013, 11:27 AM
  #980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trbr86 View Post
Using the language in that article, this is what Luongo's cap hit would like if he retired prior to his contract ending:



http://imgur.com/hFnqd


In addition to this, the Canucks would "own" Luongo's contract during his retirement years, so he can be bought-out or LTIR'd (tricky I know). Or, TOR can trade/waive Luongo before he retires, and VAN can work something out at that time.

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01-07-2013, 11:29 AM
  #981
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Interesting question: if Roberto retires early, who owns his cap hit? Is it the Canucks or the team that acquires him?

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01-07-2013, 11:30 AM
  #982
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So you think an all star goalie worth a depth center and a reasonably good prospect? Wait you said he was only worth one right?
Fair enough. You can have all-star defenseman Mike Komisarek too.

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01-07-2013, 11:31 AM
  #983
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Fair enough. You can have all-star defenseman Mike Komisarek too.
Vancouver passes. T.O can instead have yet another playoff-less season followed by many other because of inadequate goaltending

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01-07-2013, 11:33 AM
  #984
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Interesting question: if Roberto retires early, who owns his cap hit? Is it the Canucks or the team that acquires him?

The Canucks. The excel chart shows what the cap-hit would be. To illustrate, if Luongo retired in 2016-2017, the cap-hit to VAN would be 1.93m for the remaining 6 seasons of his contract. VAN would "own" the contract at this point, so it could be bought out, or used to bump up against the cap in order to initiate LTIR space. Not much cause for concern here on either side.

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01-07-2013, 11:35 AM
  #985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
In addition to this, the Canucks would "own" Luongo's contract during his retirement years, so he can be bought-out or LTIR'd (tricky I know). Or, TOR can trade/waive Luongo before he retires, and VAN can work something out at that time.
Could we trade him to a cap floor team for future considerations?

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01-07-2013, 11:35 AM
  #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Allow us to use that example to draw a parallel.

Fleischmann/Versteeg = Bertuzzi
Kulikov - Allen (Technically, Garrison but yeah...)
Auld = Clemmensen

Now for Toronto

Lupul = Bertuzzi
Gunnarsson = Allen
Auld = Reimer

Sub in Kadri over Gunnarsson because we don't need him and Toronto does. You could also swap Lupul for Kulemin if something enticing was added.

Point remains those are distinctly superior offers to what most from either of those fanbases have tossed here.
I can understand the correlation between one of Fleichmann or Versteeg being equivalent to Bertuzzi. But Kulikov is NOT even close in comparison to what Allen was then. Allen had just 1 full season of NHL experience when traded and had an injury history and was a bottom pairing d-man for the Canucks. Kulikov is a top 4 d-man who's played 3 yrs in the NHL already. The real equivalent from FL would probably be Ellerby.

And what would be the equivalent of Krajicek in that trade for Vancouver right now? Keep in mind that at the time, Krajicek was a former 1st round pick and coming off his first full NHL season after playing 2 yrs in the AHL. He seemed like a solid enough puck moving offensive d-man with top 4 upside. I'm guessing the only equivalent would be Tanev right now for the Canucks.

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01-07-2013, 11:38 AM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The Canucks. The excel chart shows what the cap-hit would be. To illustrate, if Luongo retired in 2016-2017, the cap-hit to VAN would be 1.93m for the remaining 6 seasons of his contract. VAN would "own" the contract at this point, so it could be bought out, or used to bump up against the cap in order to initiate LTIR space. Not much cause for concern here on either side.
Inaccurate. As s7ark pointed out, Mirtle's language is unclear on that subject.

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01-07-2013, 11:40 AM
  #988
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Inaccurate. As s7ark pointed out, Mirtle's language is unclear on that subject.

Which subject? Who would "own" the cap hit? Yes, I know. But assuming it was meant to punish the original teams, I'm thinking the Canucks will be the ones to "own" the contract, and utilize it however they should see fit.


The cap-hit excel chart is accurate though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Could we trade him to a cap floor team for future considerations?


Trade a retired player? No.

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01-07-2013, 11:42 AM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I can understand the correlation between one of Fleichmann or Versteeg being equivalent to Bertuzzi. But Kulikov is NOT even close in comparison to what Allen was then. Allen had just 1 full season of NHL experience when traded and had an injury history and was a bottom pairing d-man for the Canucks. Kulikov is a top 4 d-man who's played 3 yrs in the NHL already. The real equivalent from FL would probably be Ellerby.

And what would be the equivalent of Krajicek in that trade for Vancouver right now? Keep in mind that at the time, Krajicek was a former 1st round pick and coming off his first full NHL season after playing 2 yrs in the AHL. He seemed like a solid enough puck moving offensive d-man with top 4 upside. I'm guessing the only equivalent would be Tanev right now for the Canucks.
Bertuzzi > Fleishmann/Versteeg
Kulikov > Allen
Auld > Clemmenson

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01-07-2013, 11:44 AM
  #990
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Trade a retired player? No.
So what does "owning his contract" even mean? And how can we buy him out if he's owed no salary?

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01-07-2013, 11:48 AM
  #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bertuzzi > Fleishmann/Versteeg
Kulikov>>> Allen
Auld > Clemmenson

much more accurate.

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01-07-2013, 11:48 AM
  #992
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So what does "owning his contract" even mean? And how can we buy him out if he's owed no salary?

Owning it only means that it would be a contract on the books, as if it were a player.

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01-07-2013, 11:51 AM
  #993
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Which subject? Who would "own" the cap hit? Yes, I know. But assuming it was meant to punish the original teams, I'm thinking the Canucks will be the ones to "own" the contract, and utilize it however they should see fit.
You could be right, but you could also be wrong. It's entirely possible that the cap hit will stay with the last team that Roberto plays for before he retires.

We definitely need clarification on this subject. If the team that acquires him is on the hook if he retires, the Canucks will get very little back in trade. Perhaps a B prospect and a late round pick.

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01-07-2013, 11:51 AM
  #994
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I went back to page 32, and couldn't find reference to this.. if somehow I missed it, I apologize.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2013/...bban_contract/

Quote:
The Toronto Sun takes the position that while general manager Brian Burke has denied a report from last fall that indicated that a Roberto Luongo trade already had been worked out and would be implemented once a new CBA had been ratified, there is no doubt that the Leafs and Canucks have had serious discussions about the veteran goalie.

As for Luongo himself, the personable goalie fired off a tweet on Sunday that said: So (what) do we do now?

If you are the Leafs and the Canucks, you wait until all the is and ts are crossed on the CBA. Then let the trade games begin.

Luongo does have a no-trade but is said to be willing to waive it to come to Toronto. His first choice was the Panthers but, with that franchise looking to shed salary instead of adding it, Luongo was apparently told by Canucks management prior to the lockout that there was no fit with Florida.

Theres going to be a lot of (trade) activity once the deal gets ratified and teams try to plan. Well see what comes our way, Gillis told Vancouver reporters on Sunday.

A Vancouver source told QMI on Sunday that the Canucks want to study the new CBA before making a decision on what to do with Luongo, which could very well end up being a deal to Toronto if it proves to be the right fit.

According to media reports, Gilman expects Luongo to be at Canucks training camp in the coming days if the new CBA is ratified.

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01-07-2013, 11:53 AM
  #995
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
You could be right, but you could also be wrong. It's entirely possible that the cap hit will stay with the last team that Roberto plays for before he retires.

We definitely need clarification on this subject. If the team that acquires him is on the hook if he retires, the Canucks will get very little back in trade. Perhaps a B prospect and a late round pick.
LOL... Unreal! Enjoy yet another losing season followed by another.

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01-07-2013, 11:55 AM
  #996
The Saurus
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LOL... Unreal! Enjoy yet another losing season followed by another.
If the team that acquires Roberto is damaged long-term by acquiring him, do you actually expect to get premium value for this player?

I'm genuinely curious as to your reasoning here.

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01-07-2013, 11:57 AM
  #997
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
There is risk in everything being offered too. What if Kadri busts? Bozak/Lupul/Macarthur walk? Kulemin remains a 7 goal scorer? Etc. Luongo is by far a surer bet to be an impact player than any package offered by fans here.
And Lou is also a sure bet to carry a 5.3 cap hit no matter how you slice it, combine that with the possibility of him only playing a few years, and potentially not being to the high standard he has played in the past is something many Nucks fans refuse to acknowledge. With the cap going down, no possibilities of hiding these cap hits, teams have to be very cap conscience moving forward. Based on some posters suggesting he may only play a few years, Leafs would be better served getting Thomas. .

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01-07-2013, 11:57 AM
  #998
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But Kulikov is NOT even close in comparison to what Allen was then. Allen had just 1 full season of NHL experience when traded and had an injury history and was a bottom pairing d-man for the Canucks.
That's not correct. Bryan Allen was in his 3rd full season on the Canucks and he was playing top 4 minutes.

Allen - 20:27 per game, 199 games over the last 3 NHL seasons
Kulikov - 21:25 per game, 198 games over the last 3 NHL seasons

Kulkov is younger and projects to be better but Allen was very good at the time of the trade, in his first season with the Cats he was a solid #4.

Injuries really hurt the Allen/Bertuzzi combo but at the time it was a very high value package.

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01-07-2013, 11:58 AM
  #999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bertuzzi > Fleishmann/Versteeg
Kulikov > Allen
Auld > Clemmenson
Keep in mind that Bertuzzi also had the Steve Moore stuff hanging over his head. The season before his trade he had 71 pts at around 30 yrs old. Fleischmann just had 61 pts at 27 yrs old and Versteeg had 54 at 25 yrs old. I'd say its more closer than you indicate due to age & outside factors. I also think the Auld & Clemmensen comparison is a lot closer. I mean Clemmensen has a longer NHL history than Auld did when traded. Clemmer also was able to help 2 teams into the playoffs when the starters were either injured (NJ Devils) or struggling down the stretch (with the Panthers). He's probably one of the best backups in the league and has shown he is perfectly capable of holding the fort for stretches of time if needed. So to revise its more like:

Bertuzzi >= Fleischmann/Versteeg (closer to equal on Flash)
Kulikov >>>> Allen
Auld = Clemmensen

As I said, the equivalent to Allen would be Ellerby and then maybe Allen would be valued a little more in comparison. And again, what would be the replacement in the current context of Krajicek...is it Tanev? I dont think Gillis wants to give him up right?

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01-07-2013, 11:59 AM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Right, and that risk prevents our demands of Gardiner+ For leaf fans to try and undercut that down to Komisarek inclusions is when things turn sour.
And common sense will tell you it is likely somewhere in between.

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