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Luongo: Light at the end of the tunnel?

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Old
01-07-2013, 03:50 PM
  #176
StarsFan74
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I that case will you take Kesler? That 5 million we would save would be more valuable than his playing ability.
I know he had a sub-par 2011-12 season and the 2012 playoffs, but it's rather premature of you to want him off your team, don't you think?

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01-07-2013, 03:50 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
how could it not
He could play bad...

Our defense is exponentially worse than Vancouvers

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01-07-2013, 03:50 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Thanks for pointing out that we would have to have a terrible season to get a top pick. I hadn't known things worked that way before.

I don't want a mediocre, barely make the playoffs, don't have room to improve team. I want a competitor, and I'm not sure we have the assets yet to be that team. Sure, Luongo if we obtain him on a good trade for the Leafs, not giving up too much in assets.. we are a better team. Probably a 7th-11th team, instead of worse. Mediocre draft picks from there, not enough talent coming through the system, and hoping like hell we can pick up a Getzlaf as a UFA.

Given how long we've been bad, I don't view it as an extreme hardship to be bad for one more year, in order to get that elite player...

Of course, Reimer would probably stand on his head, and lead us to 9th place, and we'd be screwed anyway.

But, a Luongo trade, that costs us much of our future doesn't really do us much good long-term... beyond maybe just barely making the playoffs for a few years. I have higher ambitions for the team.
Thank you for writing this and hitting the nail on the head.

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01-07-2013, 03:50 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
What exactly does this mean? Isn't Kesler coming back at some point this year with Vancouver?
You missed the point. You said that sheding Lu's cap would be the biggest win for Vancouver.

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01-07-2013, 03:51 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
He also thought he had Brodeur in Cloutier for those 5 years I think.
also thought kevin weekes was the future...lol Burke is a good GM, great even, but if it's one thing even he can't argue is that his record for evaluating goaltenders is ridiculously terrible.

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01-07-2013, 03:52 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
I know he had a sub-par 2011-12 season and the 2012 playoffs, but it's rather premature of you to want him off your team, don't you think?
I was being sarcastic. He said getting rid of luongos cap hit was the biggest win for Vancouver. By that logic we should trade Kesler/Sedins/Hamhuis because capspace is more valuable than their playing ability.

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01-07-2013, 03:53 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
The leafs can benefit from Raymond as he is a staple on our PK which has been near tops in the league last few years whereas yours has been closer to where you've finished in the standings in the same time frame.

Luongo easily has 3-4 years of elite play left in him and 2-3 years of very good/above average play. His NTC drops off around that time and he can be moved when his play and salary drops off. 5-7 years of elite to very good goaltending is what you are getting. The fact is the prices most of us are asking is taking into consideration the long term deal with a cheater cap hit. What do you think the leafs could do over the next 5-7 years with top 10 goaltending?
You don't know that Luongo is going to continue to play well. Nobody does. Based on his collapses in clutch games, the guy certainly seems to have some head issues. I'd be very concerned about getting him in Toronto, especially if his heart is set on Florida. I could see him becoming the modern incarnation of Larry Murphy, a scapegoat playing with no confidence being shredded by the home fans every night. I'd actually be concerned about getting him in Florida, too, because then I'd be worried that he'd be coasting to retirement.

Not saying Luongo isn't an intriguing idea. But I wouldn't give up much for him given his confidence issues and tendency to come up short in big games. And that's without even taking the contract into much consideration.

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01-07-2013, 03:54 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
The leafs can benefit from Raymond as he is a staple on our PK which has been near tops in the league last few years whereas yours has been closer to where you've finished in the standings in the same time frame.

Luongo easily has 3-4 years of elite play left in him and 2-3 years of very good/above average play. His NTC drops off around that time and he can be moved when his play and salary drops off. 5-7 years of elite to very good goaltending is what you are getting. The fact is the prices most of us are asking is taking into consideration the long term deal with a cheater cap hit. What do you think the leafs could do over the next 5-7 years with top 10 goaltending?
The Leafs have no need whatsoever for Raymond, this seems to be a ploy from Nucks fans assuming he is involved in a trade with Lou, they will get more value. No need for Raymond, keep him and his short term cap hit thanks.

Ands the point is, there is an 8 year cap hit at 5.3 that goes along with it, and no guarantee's as to how many years he will be at the top of his game. Lets say he has 2-3 years of good play, then declines and plays poorly only to be playing behind someone else? Sounds great having a 5.3 cap hit sitting on the bench doesnt it. Even better, he plays the term of his contract till he is 42 and is playing poorly while the team takes a 5.3 cap hit as well? I'm sure Vancouver fans would love to see the Leafs in that situation, but I'm pretty sure Toronto fans and management are smarter than that.

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01-07-2013, 03:54 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Thanks for pointing out that we would have to have a terrible season to get a top pick. I hadn't known things worked that way before.

I don't want a mediocre, barely make the playoffs, don't have room to improve team. I want a competitor, and I'm not sure we have the assets yet to be that team. Sure, Luongo if we obtain him on a good trade for the Leafs, not giving up too much in assets.. we are a better team. Probably a 7th-11th team, instead of worse. Mediocre draft picks from there, not enough talent coming through the system, and hoping like hell we can pick up a Getzlaf as a UFA.

Given how long we've been bad, I don't view it as an extreme hardship to be bad for one more year, in order to get that elite player...

Of course, Reimer would probably stand on his head, and lead us to 9th place, and we'd be screwed anyway.

But, a Luongo trade, that costs us much of our future doesn't really do us much good long-term... beyond maybe just barely making the playoffs for a few years. I have higher ambitions for the team.
Your higher ambitions for the team is actually mediocrity. You continue to go along as is and see where that gets you. Maybe it will take your 10th year of no success before you start to realize that in order to get something you have to give something. Have had the success of Luongo and playoffs for a number of seasons now I can honestly say I wouldn't hesitate to make a big splash for a legit starter. There is nothing better then cracking a beer with the guys and watching your team in a stanley cup playoff series. I guess you wouldn't know what I'm talking about there though.

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01-07-2013, 03:55 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I was being sarcastic. He said getting rid of luongos cap hit was the biggest win for Vancouver. By that logic we should trade Kesler/Sedins/Hamhuis because capspace is more valuable than their playing ability.
I might think you are smarter than this.

Would it be in the best interest of the team, if the Sedin's were relegated to the fourth line, with their Cap? That is the parallel, not the one you draw.

---------------------------------------------------------

...back to my prior post. It isn't that I don't want Luongo... if you have the chance to pick up a player who has been elite, you have to try.. but it has to work out for the long-term for your team. This is why you see so many Leafs fans stubborn as to not giving up key young players.

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01-07-2013, 03:55 PM
  #186
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I just pray to God that Chicago dosn't bite!
I would love to see Lou stay in Vancouver .. as the distraction would be quite entertaining!!

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01-07-2013, 03:55 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
The Leafs have no need whatsoever for Raymond, this seems to be a ploy from Nucks fans assuming he is involved in a trade with Lou, they will get more value. No need for Raymond, keep him and his short term cap hit thanks.

Ands the point is, there is an 8 year cap hit at 5.3 that goes along with it, and no guarantee's as to how many years he will be at the top of his game. Lets say he has 2-3 years of good play, then declines and plays poorly only to be playing behind someone else? Sounds great having a 5.3 cap hit sitting on the bench doesnt it. Even better, he plays the term of his contract till he is 42 and is playing poorly while the team takes a 5.3 cap hit as well? I'm sure Vancouver fans would love to see the Leafs in that situation, but I'm pretty sure Toronto fans and management are smarter than that.
you also walk into bmw dealerships and complain about the fuel economy, right?

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01-07-2013, 03:56 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I was being sarcastic. He said getting rid of luongos cap hit was the biggest win for Vancouver. By that logic we should trade Kesler/Sedins/Hamhuis because capspace is more valuable than their playing ability.
Since when does Kesler/Sedins/Hamhuis have contracts till the age of 42, and do they ride the bench from time to time like Lou and Schneider? I know you're smarter than that.

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01-07-2013, 03:58 PM
  #189
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Agree with previous poster. Toronto is a terrible trade partner for Vancouver. Florida is a slightly better option but a darkhorse team is far more likely especially considering the new CBA. Lu will get fair value from wherever, and the fringe players on Florida and Toronto can rest easy until they hit free agency.

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01-07-2013, 03:58 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
you also walk into bmw dealerships and complain about the fuel economy, right?
Probably not, but if I was looking at a used BMW with a fair ammount of miles on it and 8 years to pay it off, fuel economy would be the last thing on my mind, as it should for anyone.

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01-07-2013, 03:59 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Your higher ambitions for the team is actually mediocrity. You continue to go along as is and see where that gets you. Maybe it will take your 10th year of no success before you start to realize that in order to get something you have to give something. Have had the success of Luongo and playoffs for a number of seasons now I can honestly say I wouldn't hesitate to make a big splash for a legit starter. There is nothing better then cracking a beer with the guys and watching your team in a stanley cup playoff series. I guess you wouldn't know what I'm talking about there though.
Well, Mr. Mike... Not everybody is 20 years old here. I've watched my team just about make the SCF, get robbed... several times. I've been to the playoff games.. I have cracked beers during Leafs playoff runs. I know what it is about, so I don't need a lecture from someone who can't see the long-term.

Sometimes it takes short-term mediocracy, for long-term greatness.

However, I will take the compliment you are giving my Leafs, and Thank You, because clearly you think the Leafs are just a goalie away from contending for the Cup.

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01-07-2013, 04:00 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Since when does Kesler/Sedins/Hamhuis have contracts till the age of 42, and do they ride the bench from time to time like Lou and Schneider? I know you're smarter than that.
Luongo won't be playing to age 42. Your smarter than that.

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01-07-2013, 04:00 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post

Franson would never crack our top four, thus the probability of scoring even twenty points is incredibly unlikely, never mind thirty. Likewise, he does not improve our team. Vancouver has dominated the powerplay statistic for years. What does Franson offer that we have not already accomplished?
Franson has scored 20+ points, on pace for around 30 most years on the 3rd pairing all 3 of his NHL seasons. He would have no problem doing that in Vancouver.

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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yeah, the thing is Kadri/Kulemin/Macarthur look out of place on a contender's top-6, imo.

Lupul, Versteeg, even Fleischmann would all be better options and are far more appealing to us.
You do realize the Leafs just traded Versteeg because he was playing behind Kulemin and MacArthur on the Leafs 3rd line, right?

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01-07-2013, 04:01 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
Agree with previous poster. Toronto is a terrible trade partner for Vancouver. Florida is a slightly better option but a darkhorse team is far more likely especially considering the new CBA. Lu will get fair value from wherever, and the fringe players on Florida and Toronto can rest easy until they hit free agency.
I actually believe that is likely the case. I see a sleeper team jumping in and getting it done. It will be too bad really because T.O. has a real opportunity to change the direction of their team. Right now that direction is sideways.

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01-07-2013, 04:04 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
I might think you are smarter than this.

Would it be in the best interest of the team, if the Sedin's were relegated to the fourth line, with their Cap? That is the parallel, not the one you draw.

---------------------------------------------------------

...back to my prior post. It isn't that I don't want Luongo... if you have the chance to pick up a player who has been elite, you have to try.. but it has to work out for the long-term for your team. This is why you see so many Leafs fans stubborn as to not giving up key young players.
The parallel would be if we had Crosby and Malkin as our 1st and 2nd line centers it would make a 6 million dollar Henrik expendable (sort of like Staal was).

It just happens to be in goal and not center.


I think its hard to argue that any player outside of Kessel, Reilly, Phaneuf and (maybe) Gardiner would have less impact on the team than Luongo would for the next 5-6 years (which I would say is long term in the NHL)

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01-07-2013, 04:04 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by DeathToAllButMetal View Post
You don't know that Luongo is going to continue to play well. Nobody does. Based on his collapses in clutch games, the guy certainly seems to have some head issues. I'd be very concerned about getting him in Toronto, especially if his heart is set on Florida. I could see him becoming the modern incarnation of Larry Murphy, a scapegoat playing with no confidence being shredded by the home fans every night. I'd actually be concerned about getting him in Florida, too, because then I'd be worried that he'd be coasting to retirement.

Not saying Luongo isn't an intriguing idea. But I wouldn't give up much for him given his confidence issues and tendency to come up short in big games. And that's without even taking the contract into much consideration.
By the way....this seems to be the exact reason why he is on the trading block

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01-07-2013, 04:04 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Well, Mr. Mike... Not everybody is 20 years old here. I've watched my team just about make the SCF, get robbed... several times. I've been to the playoff games.. I have cracked beers during Leafs playoff runs. I know what it is about, so I don't need a lecture from someone who can't see the long-term.

Sometimes it takes short-term mediocracy, for long-term greatness.

However, I will take the compliment you are giving my Leafs, and Thank You, because clearly you think the Leafs are just a goalie away from contending for the Cup.
I've never said the leafs were a goalie away from winning the cup. You must not have your reading glasses on. I said playoff contender and yes I believe the leafs are a real goalie away from being that. I've also said for a long time now that it's time for the leafs to get their act together and become successful again. I would much rather every Canadian team make the playoffs then a handful of teams who reside in markets that don't even know what an offside is.

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01-07-2013, 04:04 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Luongo won't be playing to age 42. Your smarter than that.
It is, you're smarter than that.

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01-07-2013, 04:07 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Luongo won't be playing to age 42. Your smarter than that.
There is no guarantee's that is the case. The one constant is the 5.3 cap hit, he could play for 3 years, or the term. What is reality is the team that aquires him will have that cap hit, for how long, and what kind of value of play in return, is the whole point. I laugh at some Vancouver posters saying they can just keep him, and not realizing that having either 5.3 or 4 million sitting on the bench on any given night is forward thinking and making the team better.

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01-07-2013, 04:07 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
not to get too far OT, but why haven't the leafs explored trading for bernier (sp) from LA
Bernier presents the same problem that many of our recent goalies have, he simply is not proven. Yes I like him, and he certainly has starter potential, but is he an upgrade on Scrivens or Riemer ? Hard to say. If we add a goalie it will be an experienced one in my opinion, Burke has said as much. This could of course change but to me if we fail to get Luongo (who I think we will aquire) then a Biron type would seem a better fit for us until we know what we have in our young goalies or a more affordable (in a cost to aquire sense, not contract) starter becomes available.

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Originally Posted by Stats01 View Post
Exactly, I don't get the people who don't want Luongo, let's forget the contract for a second because that seems to get brought in every argument. Do we really want to go with a tandem of Reimer who has had a good 30 games in his career and Scrivens as a back-up? I've always been a fan of getting this deal done. At some point we have to make a move up the standings and stop with this status quo B.S. Doesn't anybody want this team to make the damn playoffs? I'll tell you right now Reimer and Scrivens with the team we have won't do it.
To me the only reasons to object to a Luongo trade are

1. His contract implications in the future

2. The cost of aquiring him

Consider if we do get Luongo at the cost of a serious building block. Yes, I believe we will make the playoffs which means our draft picks then become middle of the road. This means the main way we will improve in the future is through trade and free agency. So far we have not had much luck getting a #1 Center this way. Kadri is actually the only thing like a number one center in our system, not saying he would be a top one, but he has the potential to be an upgrade on Bozak.

It's a tough situation because players like Luongo only come up so often and will be aquired at a discount (in my opinion) because of the situation, so it may be difficult to pass on. If we do then our days of high Draft picks are over and we arent a cup contender yet so getting the pieces for the next step depends more on free agents. I suppose Luongo would make us a more attractive destination for a Getzlaf type .

To me if we can aquire him without giving up a major building block: Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner, JVR, Dion, Kessel, Kuleman, and Lupul then it's a no brainer. I would trade pretty much every other player not listed here to get Luo and hope either Kadri proves to be a servicable top 6 center or that one comes via free agency. If that doesn't work, we could be spinning our wheels as a perenial 8th seed year after year.

I know Canuck fans will disagree and say one of the previously mentioned players has to come back, but if I were Burke I would be very reluctant to part with any of those assets.

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