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THE OFFICIAL BUYOUT THREAD: Bourque or Kaberle?

View Poll Results: Who do you buy out?
Gomez 72 67.29%
Bourque 16 14.95%
Kaberle 64 59.81%
Markov 2 1.87%
other 0 0%
I only buy out 1 player 8 7.48%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-07-2013, 02:43 PM
  #226
Frozenice
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
It sounded from the pre-settlement chatter that everybody was kosher with a perpetual cushion for rookie bonuses. They wouldn't count on the cap up front, just get wrapped onto next year's cap in the event that they were realized. So as you say, we probably don't have anything to fear on that front. Probably. But I guess we'll find out, as with a few other key issues, in the next couple days.

The other thing is the trade provisions on salary/cap space. It sounds like there's some mechanism that is going to be revealed that allows teams to trade players while retaining a portion of their salary commitment and/or cap hit. We'll find out the details and amounts on that soon too. Then have to figure those options into our various speculations. Although in our case, I'm not sure it would have much effect... we seem likely to have enough candidates to just go the compliance buyout route painlessly, we don't need to trade anybody and hold onto a cap hit. And then once we do dump those guys, we'll just be comfortably at the cap, not in a position to trade for other players whilst their previous teams hold onto cap space (more like the kind of thing a contender might pay a trade premium for anyway?). It'll be interesting, but compliance buyouts are probably all our team needs for now.
I think if the Habs are finished with Gomez we might be better served to trade him to a team like the NYI for the next year and a half if it ends up we're only going to be charged $2 million per year cap hit or something in that area with the Islanders picking up the rest. That would probably go over better then having Gomez in Hamilton for the rest of the year.

It depends on the details on how the salary sharing thing works out.

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01-07-2013, 03:24 PM
  #227
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I think if the Habs are finished with Gomez we might be better served to trade him to a team like the NYI for the next year and a half if it ends up we're only going to be charged $2 million per year cap hit or something in that area with the Islanders picking up the rest. That would probably go over better then having Gomez in Hamilton for the rest of the year.

It depends on the details on how the salary sharing thing works out.
$44M floor is not really a challenge for teams to meet. Easier for the Isles to take a pass on that one. Sign really good players with their money. If they still have room for Gomez after that, sign him for $525k after the Habs buy him out in the summer.

At least, that's what I would expect. If Gomez plays really well this year... say puts up 30-40 points, that well... then *maybe* some weak cap floor team could rationalize picking him up in a trade... but for me, I'd say no way to holding *any* cap hit from him from the Habs' POV. If you've got the compliance buyout option, clear him fully if you can. Either trade the whole thing, or buy out the whole thing. No point in a half measure.

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01-07-2013, 03:32 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
$44M floor is not really a challenge for teams to meet. Easier for the Isles to take a pass on that one. Sign really good players with their money. If they still have room for Gomez after that, sign him for $525k after the Habs buy him out in the summer.

At least, that's what I would expect. If Gomez plays really well this year... say puts up 30-40 points, that well... then *maybe* some weak cap floor team could rationalize picking him up in a trade... but for me, I'd say no way to holding *any* cap hit from him from the Habs' POV. If you've got the compliance buyout option, clear him fully if you can. Either trade the whole thing, or buy out the whole thing. No point in a half measure.
There are not a ton of good UFA's and they usually don't end up in NYI.

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01-07-2013, 03:52 PM
  #229
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With the new CBA, it seems that we can no longer send Gomez to AHL to save the cap. His salary (minus $900K) still counts in the cap, even sent to Bulldogs.

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01-07-2013, 04:02 PM
  #230
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Gomez should be gone nest September. As for Bourque or Kaberle, I would keep Bourque, a guy who can still score 25-30 goals and be a big presence on the LW.

Beaulieu, Tinordi or ??? can pick up the slack on D next season.

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01-07-2013, 04:58 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
There are not a ton of good UFA's and they usually don't end up in NYI.
Yeah, but the cap doesn't usually go *down* $6M in a year either.

Not that you need a very "good" UFA to do better than Gomez, either.

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01-07-2013, 05:03 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Gomez should be gone nest September. As for Bourque or Kaberle, I would keep Bourque, a guy who can still score 25-30 goals and be a big presence on the LW.

Beaulieu, Tinordi or ??? can pick up the slack on D next season.
Well, I would hold off on those expectations for Beaulieu and Tinordi... they have done ok in Hamilton, but I don't look at them - even now, and both have improved - and think of them as strong candidates to make the team next year. I would have them both in Hamilton again, barring any exponential leaps in their development, of course.

Replacing Kaberle... if it comes down to it, I'd still rather have a tougher stay at home guy, just shop the UFA market. Markov (fingers crossed), Subban, Diaz, and maybe Weber if he makes a bit of progress would be fine for puck movers for now. Just try to get somebody who can clear the crease and snarl a bit, whilst we wait for Tinordi.

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01-07-2013, 05:12 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Well, I would hold off on those expectations for Beaulieu and Tinordi... they have done ok in Hamilton, but I don't look at them - even now, and both have improved - and think of them as strong candidates to make the team next year. I would have them both in Hamilton again, barring any exponential leaps in their development, of course.

Replacing Kaberle... if it comes down to it, I'd still rather have a tougher stay at home guy, just shop the UFA market. Markov (fingers crossed), Subban, Diaz, and maybe Weber if he makes a bit of progress would be fine for puck movers for now. Just try to get somebody who can clear the crease and snarl a bit, whilst we wait for Tinordi.
Yeah we can't rush Beaulieu and Tinordi. I don't think neither of them will be ready for more than call-ups next year. It's easy to sign a decent #6 if we need too.

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01-07-2013, 05:12 PM
  #234
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The main question is this:

Bourque has a longer term than Kaberle, but less of a cap hit.

Therefore it depends really, on how each player performs this year. However, another issue needs to be examined. Since the Canadiens cannot buy out a player this year anyways; Kaberle becomes an increasingly less attractive option to buy-out next year, since he has only one year left on his contract after the 2013 season.

If Bourque comes back this year and scores 20+ goals and 200 shots, maybe they may just decide to keep him. In this way, Kaberle and Bourque may remain Habs for their terms and not bought-out.

Plus lets be honest, which AHL d-men do you really see jumping into the Habs seven instead of Kaberle? St. Denis? Commodore? Tinordi? Ellis?

Personally, non of them are TRULY better than Kaberle. They are perhaps better in defensive situations. St. Denis could easily play better defense than Kaberle. At the same time, Kaberle on the second powerplay unit looks pretty nice.

Beaulieu is still 2-3 years away. Loads of talent, but TONS of polishing to do. Let him play with Thrower, Dietz and Bennett, Ellis and Tinordi in the coming years, and allow him to evolve in a leadership role with the new coming defensemen. The hirings of Sylvain Lefebvre and Donald Dufresne were chosen by Bergevin because he recognized the strength of the Canadiens prospect pool was defensemen. He wanted good defensemen coaches manning the farm team. NOT to mention that Bergevin himself was a defenseman and knows what it takes to teach young d-men how to be pros, therefore maximizing their talent.

Now am I happy he chose not to hire a better offensive coach than Ron Wilson? No, I am sure Bergevin could have gotten an experienced coach or former star NHL player to come in and help coach the team. Of course Lefebvre wanted to be the head coach and attempt to demonstrate he is capable of being an NHL head coach.

Either way, back to the original topic. I think Kaberle will definitely not be bought out; but if Bourque plays well he may also not be bought out. Therefore, Bourque is most likely to be bought out.

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01-07-2013, 05:36 PM
  #235
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What's the point anyway, can't buyout anyone till next June? Let's just wait and see what they'll do. It's not like we don't have the cap and roster space to keep a hold of them in the meantime.

All three of Gomez, Kabs and Bourque will be useful as we always get many injured players, even if the season's shortened.

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01-07-2013, 06:18 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
What's the point anyway, can't buyout anyone till next June? Let's just wait and see what they'll do. It's not like we don't have the cap and roster space to keep a hold of them in the meantime.

All three of Gomez, Kabs and Bourque will be useful as we always get many injured players, even if the season's shortened.
Exactly.

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01-07-2013, 08:11 PM
  #237
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Why not Gionta

Why are we looking at just Bourque and Kaberle?
I don't think we have a defenseman ready to replace Kaberle yet. I'd like to wait and see about Bourque. Let's see if he gets back to 20+ goal pace. His salary is not out of place in today's NHL.

Next year will be the final year on Gionta's contract and I think he will be looking for a salary to reflect his experience not his actual worth. With 2 buyouts per team there will be a lot of overpaid top six players available, maybe like LeCavalier?
They will be on the open market and the more cap room we have available the more flexibility we'll have picking over the cast-offs.

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01-07-2013, 09:59 PM
  #238
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Basically it comes down to who does worse, Gomez is a for sure, if Bourque is Terrible then him because his contracts longer, if he proves he goes at a 20-25 goal pace Kabes is gone.

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01-07-2013, 10:41 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by habakkuk View Post
Why are we looking at just Bourque and Kaberle?
I don't think we have a defenseman ready to replace Kaberle yet. I'd like to wait and see about Bourque. Let's see if he gets back to 20+ goal pace. His salary is not out of place in today's NHL.

Next year will be the final year on Gionta's contract and I think he will be looking for a salary to reflect his experience not his actual worth. With 2 buyouts per team there will be a lot of overpaid top six players available, maybe like LeCavalier?
They will be on the open market and the more cap room we have available the more flexibility we'll have picking over the cast-offs.
Yea not a chance. Personally I think it would reflect very poorly on the organization to buyout their captain, not to mention he hasn't been nearly as bad as Bourque or Kaberle.

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01-07-2013, 11:31 PM
  #240
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We could also discuss the potential buyouts from other teams, many people mention Komisarek with the Leafs...

Would you forgive that damn pig who sold us down the river and welcome him back?

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01-07-2013, 11:51 PM
  #241
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LEcavalier could be on his way to Montreal next summer hahaha

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01-08-2013, 07:14 AM
  #242
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We could also discuss the potential buyouts from other teams, many people mention Komisarek with the Leafs...

Would you forgive that damn pig who sold us down the river and welcome him back?
I think Horcoff could be a good fit with Prust and White or Moen on a shutdown line, at a decent price, assuming the Oilers buy him out.

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01-08-2013, 07:20 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Here's an idea... before making up our mind on who to buy out (aside from the obvious Gomez contract), why not play the season and see how Kaberle and Bourque play, and see how Markov's knee is?
Kind of don't really have a choice, not that I disagree with your sentiment. Give these boys the chances to state their cases and prove they can still play and re-evaluate their game over this summer. If they feel one or the other, or both, still have some game left in them then either buy one of them out or give them both a second chance at it. Teams have the summer of 2013 and 2014 to buyout two players. Now is their chance to pull their weight a bit.

As for Gomez, makes no sense. After this short 48 game season, he has one year left on his contract. He could easily be trade bait for a team struggling to hit the cap floor.

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01-08-2013, 09:58 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
As for Gomez, makes no sense. After this short 48 game season, he has one year left on his contract. He could easily be trade bait for a team struggling to hit the cap floor.
At least chop out the "easily"... the cap floor is down to $44M... floor teams can retain cap space by trading their own veterans/junk away... the UFA market is likely to be flooded in all directions with players, some decent ones, given that the cap is going down and the teams at the upper end will be squeezed out of making their usual bids... it has to add up to a very long shot that Gomez could be trade bait.

Nothing is 100% impossible, of course, but at the least he'll really need a huge bounceback performance this season, to start with. As soon as you see him start with like 1 assist in the first 10 games, I think you'll know it's safe to cross the longshot trade dream off the list forever.

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01-08-2013, 10:22 AM
  #245
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Personally, I am not convinced the buyouts are used. Evidently, Gomez is a primary candidate but given his contract only has a year left, the team might opt to ride him out and not essentially waste seven million. Bourque and Kaberle can easily be retained without reaching the cap I wager. Therefore, unless one or both play absolutely abysmal in this spirit season. We may just end up keeping them. Why not? If they're not hurting the cap and are at least decent, then no harm no foul.

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01-08-2013, 10:26 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Personally, I am not convinced the buyouts are used. Evidently, Gomez is a primary candidate but given his contract only has a year left, the team might opt to ride him out and not essentially waste seven million. Bourque and Kaberle can easily be retained without reaching the cap I wager. Therefore, unless one or both play absolutely abysmal in this spirit season. We may just end up keeping them. Why not? If they're not hurting the cap and are at least decent, then no harm no foul.
We'll have to buyout at least Gomez if we want to fit under the cap next year and also sign Desharnais. Might have to trade or buyout Kabs or Bourque too for the same reasons.

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01-08-2013, 10:29 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
We'll have to buyout at least Gomez if we want to fit under the cap next year and also sign Desharnais. Might have to trade or buyout Kabs or Bourque too for the same reasons.
Touche. Been a while since I've studied the Hab cap hit thoroughly. I can't see Desharnais demanding too much but of course, Subban makes the cap unknown right now. It seems Bourque is the better option given contract length and less attractive alternatives to slot in for Kaberle right now.

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01-08-2013, 11:11 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
We'll have to buyout at least Gomez if we want to fit under the cap next year and also sign Desharnais. Might have to trade or buyout Kabs or Bourque too for the same reasons.
Au contraire. If you want to save $, you keep them. Unless the plan is to replace them with rookies making league minimum, it will cost you more to buy them out.

Bourque at 3 Mil or Bourque bought out + replacement at more or less 2 Mil (wich isnt much)... I think you save by keeping the guy...

lest not forget Molson has bought the team not that long ago and that he just lost close to half a season of profits...

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01-08-2013, 12:26 PM
  #249
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Au contraire. If you want to save $, you keep them. Unless the plan is to replace them with rookies making league minimum, it will cost you more to buy them out.

Bourque at 3 Mil or Bourque bought out + replacement at more or less 2 Mil (wich isnt much)... I think you save by keeping the guy...

lest not forget Molson has bought the team not that long ago and that he just lost close to half a season of profits...
well here's how I see it:

Let's assume Subban gets 5 mil, that would put us @ 69,3 for this season.

Now comes next summer, unless we've traded him away, we'll have no other choice than to buyout Gomer, which I think we both agree, so that would put us @ 62 mil, BUT we'll need to replace him. Gally probably makes the team then. Now, does his bonus count on the cap or do teams still have the cushion? Because without the cushion, that's 3,2 you have to add, and that's without Desharnais's new contract. So we would be at 64,4 with DD to sign and the cap will be 64,3.

See what I mean?

For all intent and purposes, we can't really judge on the first half the AHL season for players like Tinordi and Gallagher. Both might be ready next year to make the jump.

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01-08-2013, 12:41 PM
  #250
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Now, does his bonus count on the cap or do teams still have the cushion?
Lawton tweeted there was still a 7.5% bonus cushion. Not a great source though.

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