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Scott Harrington

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Old
01-07-2013, 09:27 PM
  #51
rockinghockey
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PIT should of drafted Sammuelson or Grigs instead of Poulliot, hell they should of drafted Trouba, Poulliot was a bit of a stretch that early.

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Old
01-08-2013, 12:02 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
He is not a hitter. It is not his style.
TR, unless you classify Niskanen as a hitter, that's clearly not the point I was making. The numbers simply don't support your argument for Hamhuis on that front, even if he lays a nice hipcheck now and then.

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Me and bruinsfan46 are not merely projecting on one aspect of Harrington's tool box. Neither are you when comparing Harrington with players playing a similar brand of D WHILE having other valuable qualities Harrington does not. If they didn't have those additional qualities, they wouldn't be the assets they are.
Btw. Gorges only became a real asset in a value sense after ROCKING with Gill as the Habs booted us and the Caps. Ie. after he had been playing in the NHL for three full seasons and developed to an NHL shutdown D-man.
Production is not a tool though. I don't agree that the defensemen I named possess standout tools - at least defensively - that Harrington doesn't (though Girardi is obviously a more prolific hitter).

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I believe our PK was top3 in the league all of last season, until our system imploded/was obliterated against Philly.
I also believe that our most hated on D-men had always been excellent PK'ers with their previous teams and were so, predominantly, for us as well. Will be so going forward also, most likely.
It was not the individual quality of our PK'ers that got stood up. Philly just had us figured out and executed splendidly, Bylsma never made any adjustments to what was obviously killing us and MAF was Swiss cheese to boot. Debacle? Oh boy, yes!
1. Michalek, our #1 PK defenseman, has been traded.

2. We were 2nd worst on the PK in the playoffs in 2011, and the very worst in 2012. However good we were in the regular season, if they can't get the job done in the playoffs, it needs to be addressed. I am not confident in the likes of Martin and Orpik on the PK when it matters.

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I like St.Louis, L.A, Vancouver, San Jose and arguably Boston as better D from a player by player point of view.
I disagree, but bottom line, they're in the discussion for top 5 defense no matter how you slice it. It's a huge strength, not what hindered them in the playoffs.

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There is for Harrington and anyone currently seen as a D-prospect within our organization.
Man, these defense spots have not been grabbed by youngsters yet - that's what I'm getting at. Once they have, you can argue that there's too much youth. Until they have, we're not a young blueline, so the concerns are unfounded.

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Because they're the only assets we have to trade. Whether it is Harrington or someone else. I am no more gung ho on dealing Harrington than I am on dealing Pouliot or Dumoulin for instance. I just opine that neither of them are important for us, although one day of course they could be if they are the ones making it through.
They're not. We happen to have a couple overpaid, underperforming veterans on the blueline whose experience and track record could still yield a solid return. I'd cut bait with either of them before trading Harrington.

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I don't see why a Dumoulin for instance projects to be inferior to Harrington. But again, I would have no problems dealing any of them.... but would want serious returns for guys like Despres and Morrow.
Dumoulin's solid too, but I think Harrington's defensive ability is truly special. I rated him as the 3rd best defense prospect we had in our pre-season prospect rankings, and I've gone out of my way to watch him as often as anyone outside London can the last couple years.

If it would take a "serious return" for Despres or Morrow, I'm assuming it would take something less than that for you to deal Harrington. What player(s) would make it worthwhile for you?

Quote:
Yes, in the D-group there are many. Again, I care less about which ones among the D-men we end up trading. I am not arguing that we should deal Harrington, only that I don't see how he is particularly important to hang on to.
We are going to have to get someone ready-made/NHL potty trained to complement the youth infusion too at some point though, and I don't care whether such a player takes the role of Harrison, Despres or whoever. We are in a win now mode after all... and young D-cores don't translate well with that.
Harrington is simply a player you win with - a smart, smothering, shutdown defenseman with leadership and character, which is why coaches at every level rave about him. Considering we don't have a single defenseman like that on our current blueline and got embarrassed in our own end last year, I'd say it's a priority.

He's made a habit of leapfrogging more highly-regarded players and excelling in his role, so I think it would be a mistake to lose him. He could end up becoming a reliable NHL player sooner than you think.

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Old
01-08-2013, 12:51 AM
  #53
Tender Rip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
TR, unless you classify Niskanen as a hitter, that's clearly not the point I was making. The numbers simply don't support your argument for Hamhuis on that front, even if he lays a nice hipcheck now and then.
You know I love you, but your point here simply wasn't a good one. It is not in the number of hits. Pronger hits very little but he is obviously very physical. Niskanen hits quite a bit and is physical, but doesn't have the size to be a real factor in that regard. Hamhuis hits more than Harrington has ever given indication of doing, and he can really make his presence felt. He did it more at Nashville whereas now with Bieksa he doesn't have to.
The thing is that Harrington is just not a physical player. He will rub players out just like Despres, but unlike Despres he hardly ever goes out of character and just obliterate someone. That's part of his appeal and 'never get yourself out of position' thing, but when you compare to players who obviously play a more physical game, most of us will think that being consistently physical is a plus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Production is not a tool though. I don't agree that the defensemen I named possess standout tools - at least defensively - that Harrington doesn't (though Girardi is obviously a more prolific hitter).
Dan Hamhuis can QB a power play (more than good enough for 2nd unit duty at least) and you just cannot tell me that you see that in Harrington. Here junior stats will tell you something, because you are comparing Harrington - who is far from prolific on a stacked team - with guys who racked up close to PPG numbers in juniors. It isn't reasonable not considering these qualities that set them apart in terms of value. Girardi isn't a great passer, but at least he has a big shot which gives him an offensive dimension as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
1. Michalek, our #1 PK defenseman, has been traded.

2. We were 2nd worst on the PK in the playoffs in 2011, and the very worst in 2012. However good we were in the regular season, if they can't get the job done in the playoffs, it needs to be addressed. I am not confident in the likes of Martin and Orpik on the PK when it matters.
...or Fleury. But ultimately a team that can be top3 leaguewide on the PK for the full season is not having a lack of quality penalty killers. I am one of those who do not respect Bylsma's coaching at all and consider him incapable of adjustments. That is the real problem here, IMO. You cannot have Giroux and Voracek have ample time out of corners and whizzing the puck through the crease for backpost tap-ins repeatedly, rinse repeat, and do nothing about it for 6 games running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Man, these defense spots have not been grabbed by youngsters yet - that's what I'm getting at. Once they have, you can argue that there's too much youth. Until they have, we're not a young blueline, so the concerns are unfounded.
I am simply saying that none of the prospects (whoever gets traded) will be missed because they have never made it on to the team, and for any of them to get there, they have an insane amount of competition. If you completely forgot about the fact that we have Harrington on the books, we still have a long list of players to choose from and some who are highly touted will never make it on.
In such a scenario, it simply doesn't matter if we trade one or two of them, even if that guy is going to be a good player. Something I never disputed Harrington should/would be.
Less so as we are a team that must win again between now and the end of Sid/Malkin's prime, which is something like the next 5 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
They're not. We happen to have a couple overpaid, underperforming veterans on the blueline whose experience and track record could still yield a solid return. I'd cut bait with either of them before trading Harrington.
And again, Harrington does nothing for us now or in two-three years that we cannot easily get better with an experienced NHL player. Those overpaid, underperforming veterans will be crucial if we are to win anything this season, and we sure aren't if we deal them to play our rookies.
Whether Martin and Orpik have value.... well, their value on the ice will likely be higher for us than their trade value unless we do not acquire genuine top4D replacements for them. Which would only be more of a long term logjam for the kids of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If it would take a "serious return" for Despres or Morrow, I'm assuming it would take something less than that for you to deal Harrington. What player(s) would make it worthwhile for you?
Again, Despres and Morrow have skillsets that are harder to acquire and they both offer skills that will make them useful on the team sooner than Harrington (IMO). Despres can be on the team this season (and probably should) going by the way he looked last season. Play him now and he can likely take over Martin's position sooner rather than later. Morrow might need a year or two more, but then he certainly brings elements that we do not have now and elements that are always in high demand.
Harrington is a player who might be better than Strait and Bortuzzo one day, sure, but not anytime soon and when he is used to playing against men after some AHL seasoning, some of the youngsters we have on the team will have had several years of NHL experience and will be preferred for that very reason.

As for what I'd want for Harrington.... can't say. By himself he probably won't yield any return that makes trading him meaningful. But in a package with another player and pick or something... that brings us one of the forwards we need..... lots of guys on that list.
I wouldn't care if Harrington was used to get us a rental upgrade for a playoff run... I want to win now.

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Old
01-08-2013, 08:07 AM
  #54
KIRK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
You know I love you, but your point here simply wasn't a good one. It is not in the number of hits. Pronger hits very little but he is obviously very physical. Niskanen hits quite a bit and is physical, but doesn't have the size to be a real factor in that regard. Hamhuis hits more than Harrington has ever given indication of doing, and he can really make his presence felt. He did it more at Nashville whereas now with Bieksa he doesn't have to.
The thing is that Harrington is just not a physical player. He will rub players out just like Despres, but unlike Despres he hardly ever goes out of character and just obliterate someone. That's part of his appeal and 'never get yourself out of position' thing, but when you compare to players who obviously play a more physical game, most of us will think that being consistently physical is a plus.



Dan Hamhuis can QB a power play (more than good enough for 2nd unit duty at least) and you just cannot tell me that you see that in Harrington. Here junior stats will tell you something, because you are comparing Harrington - who is far from prolific on a stacked team - with guys who racked up close to PPG numbers in juniors. It isn't reasonable not considering these qualities that set them apart in terms of value. Girardi isn't a great passer, but at least he has a big shot which gives him an offensive dimension as well.



...or Fleury. But ultimately a team that can be top3 leaguewide on the PK for the full season is not having a lack of quality penalty killers. I am one of those who do not respect Bylsma's coaching at all and consider him incapable of adjustments. That is the real problem here, IMO. You cannot have Giroux and Voracek have ample time out of corners and whizzing the puck through the crease for backpost tap-ins repeatedly, rinse repeat, and do nothing about it for 6 games running.



I am simply saying that none of the prospects (whoever gets traded) will be missed because they have never made it on to the team, and for any of them to get there, they have an insane amount of competition. If you completely forgot about the fact that we have Harrington on the books, we still have a long list of players to choose from and some who are highly touted will never make it on.
In such a scenario, it simply doesn't matter if we trade one or two of them, even if that guy is going to be a good player. Something I never disputed Harrington should/would be.
Less so as we are a team that must win again between now and the end of Sid/Malkin's prime, which is something like the next 5 years.



And again, Harrington does nothing for us now or in two-three years that we cannot easily get better with an experienced NHL player. Those overpaid, underperforming veterans will be crucial if we are to win anything this season, and we sure aren't if we deal them to play our rookies.
Whether Martin and Orpik have value.... well, their value on the ice will likely be higher for us than their trade value unless we do not acquire genuine top4D replacements for them. Which would only be more of a long term logjam for the kids of course.



Again, Despres and Morrow have skillsets that are harder to acquire and they both offer skills that will make them useful on the team sooner than Harrington (IMO). Despres can be on the team this season (and probably should) going by the way he looked last season. Play him now and he can likely take over Martin's position sooner rather than later. Morrow might need a year or two more, but then he certainly brings elements that we do not have now and elements that are always in high demand.
Harrington is a player who might be better than Strait and Bortuzzo one day, sure, but not anytime soon and when he is used to playing against men after some AHL seasoning, some of the youngsters we have on the team will have had several years of NHL experience and will be preferred for that very reason.

As for what I'd want for Harrington.... can't say. By himself he probably won't yield any return that makes trading him meaningful. But in a package with another player and pick or something... that brings us one of the forwards we need..... lots of guys on that list.
I wouldn't care if Harrington was used to get us a rental upgrade for a playoff run... I want to win now.
I want to see fellow Pens fans not be so married to prospects or picks that they lose sight of the fact that the player, if he ever makes a significant impact, is unlikely to do so until Malkin turns 30.

I suspect fans of other teams would say similar things about how some of their fellow fans value prospects.

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Old
01-08-2013, 11:07 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
You know I love you, but your point here simply wasn't a good one. It is not in the number of hits. Pronger hits very little but he is obviously very physical. Niskanen hits quite a bit and is physical, but doesn't have the size to be a real factor in that regard. Hamhuis hits more than Harrington has ever given indication of doing, and he can really make his presence felt. He did it more at Nashville whereas now with Bieksa he doesn't have to.
The thing is that Harrington is just not a physical player. He will rub players out just like Despres, but unlike Despres he hardly ever goes out of character and just obliterate someone. That's part of his appeal and 'never get yourself out of position' thing, but when you compare to players who obviously play a more physical game, most of us will think that being consistently physical is a plus.
All I'll say on this front is that after watching the kid extensively, I have no doubts that Harrington will have no trouble playing as physical as the likes of Gorges or Hamhuis last year. Like those two, he hits as much as he needs to in order to protect his patch of ice, no more, no less. Their hitting is not a standout tool that would suggest their defensive play is a ceiling he couldn't reach.

Quote:
Dan Hamhuis can QB a power play (more than good enough for 2nd unit duty at least) and you just cannot tell me that you see that in Harrington. Here junior stats will tell you something, because you are comparing Harrington - who is far from prolific on a stacked team - with guys who racked up close to PPG numbers in juniors. It isn't reasonable not considering these qualities that set them apart in terms of value. Girardi isn't a great passer, but at least he has a big shot which gives him an offensive dimension as well.
I'm not worried about Harrington's offensive contributions - I don't ever expect any more than 20-25 points out of him at the NHL level. We'd be getting him for his defense.

Quote:
...or Fleury. But ultimately a team that can be top3 leaguewide on the PK for the full season is not having a lack of quality penalty killers. I am one of those who do not respect Bylsma's coaching at all and consider him incapable of adjustments. That is the real problem here, IMO. You cannot have Giroux and Voracek have ample time out of corners and whizzing the puck through the crease for backpost tap-ins repeatedly, rinse repeat, and do nothing about it for 6 games running.
I put a lot more blame on the likes of Martin and Orpik for being unable to make gutsy/smart defensive decisions under pressure than I do on Granato's ability to coach an effective PK.

Quote:
I am simply saying that none of the prospects (whoever gets traded) will be missed because they have never made it on to the team, and for any of them to get there, they have an insane amount of competition. If you completely forgot about the fact that we have Harrington on the books, we still have a long list of players to choose from and some who are highly touted will never make it on.
In such a scenario, it simply doesn't matter if we trade one or two of them, even if that guy is going to be a good player. Something I never disputed Harrington should/would be.
Less so as we are a team that must win again between now and the end of Sid/Malkin's prime, which is something like the next 5 years.
Unless you trade the wrong one. If Harrington goes on to have an Alzner-like trajectory and impact on another team and we keep playing Keystone Kops in our end, I don't think hindsight would treat the move too kindly.

Quote:
And again, Harrington does nothing for us now or in two-three years that we cannot easily get better with an experienced NHL player. Those overpaid, underperforming veterans will be crucial if we are to win anything this season, and we sure aren't if we deal them to play our rookies.
Whether Martin and Orpik have value.... well, their value on the ice will likely be higher for us than their trade value unless we do not acquire genuine top4D replacements for them. Which would only be more of a long term logjam for the kids of course.
I don't think their recent contributions are nearly as irreplaceable as you think. I'd deal the baby **** soft, no-idea-when-to-pinch Martin for a rental upgrade at wing in a half-second over a prospect like Harrington, and I don't think we'd miss him.

Quote:
Again, Despres and Morrow have skillsets that are harder to acquire and they both offer skills that will make them useful on the team sooner than Harrington (IMO). Despres can be on the team this season (and probably should) going by the way he looked last season. Play him now and he can likely take over Martin's position sooner rather than later. Morrow might need a year or two more, but then he certainly brings elements that we do not have now and elements that are always in high demand.
Harrington is a player who might be better than Strait and Bortuzzo one day, sure, but not anytime soon and when he is used to playing against men after some AHL seasoning, some of the youngsters we have on the team will have had several years of NHL experience and will be preferred for that very reason.
We disagree on the rarity of Harrington's skillset (he's the smartest prospect we have by a fair margin, and one of the smartest prospects in hockey, period), his potential impact, and the length of his adjustment period. I'm confident posterity will justify my take.

Quote:
As for what I'd want for Harrington.... can't say. By himself he probably won't yield any return that makes trading him meaningful. But in a package with another player and pick or something... that brings us one of the forwards we need..... lots of guys on that list.
I wouldn't care if Harrington was used to get us a rental upgrade for a playoff run... I want to win now.
We all want to win now. Just how much of the future we're willing to sacrifice for a marginal winger upgrade is what differentiates us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I want to see fellow Pens fans not be so married to prospects or picks that they lose sight of the fact that the player, if he ever makes a significant impact, is unlikely to do so until Malkin turns 30.

I suspect fans of other teams would say similar things about how some of their fellow fans value prospects.
I'm not married to all our prospects. I simply believe this particular prospect should be retained.

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Old
01-09-2013, 06:31 PM
  #56
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Scott Harrington

Harrington has the ability to make the cut in Pittsburgh this year for several reasons. The Pens need a stay at home defenseman so others such as Letang can join the rush. Letang, or whoever, will know that Scott has his partner covered. He does very well on the PK, which was missing last year. He does not take bad penalties. He has been game-shape for months. His hockey IQ more than makes up for size because he will be in the right position to prevent a goal. That's why I think he has arrived at the right time. If not, buyout Martin next year. Good luck.

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