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Looking back at the Roy trade

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01-08-2013, 01:16 AM
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Wisent42
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Looking back at the Roy trade

So it's January and still no games played, but now that there is going to be a season - how do you feel about trading Roy for Ott and Pardy? The same as then? Because I'm having second thoughts. I love having Ott on the team, and I love not having Roy on the team. So far so good. But still, Roy is the more skilled player here, there's no doubt. Ott fits a need, but just looking at the value, didn't Dallas get the better of us? And where does Pardy fit in? Even when the deal was made I wondered why we needed yet another D-man with Brennan, McNabb and possibly other prospects coming in to fight for spots. And now that the season is going to be a sprint, Pardys chances of dressing up for the Sabres looks even slimmer. And if he doesn't, what value did it bring to the trade?

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01-08-2013, 01:28 AM
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I don't see how the cancellation of 34 games would change your opinion of a trade that changes team culture.

The trade wasn't made to turn the 12-13 edition into Cup Champs.

C'mon.

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01-08-2013, 01:29 AM
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This was a real tough one to evaluate fully then and nothing's changed. I think we all assumed a center would be brought in via a second move but the trade market was next to nothing with the lockout looming. There's still a chance to bring in a vet bottom 6 center as it's a pretty damn glaring need. So long as the center position is patched up enough to make it through the season, then I have no qualms. Worst case scenario is that the issue isn't adequately addressed and, well, hopefully we get a top 5 pick out of this truncated season.

Sabres gave on value (at least on talent) to do a bit of house cleaning and get tougher to play against. It's a good trade, especially mid/long-term (assuming he stays, or is as likely to stay as Roy was) with solid youth in the pipeline at center. We all have different feelings about Roy and whether he was a 'cancer'/'underachiever'/etc, but I think we can all agree that we'd rather have Ott as an influence over our latest batch of young players than Roy.

Still, over the next couple seasons, we better hope some combination of young players (Ennis/Hodgson of course, but Grigorenko is also a possibility), non-natural centers (Leino/Ott), and bottom 6 vets (McCormick/Porter/Ellis/anyone they bring in) can do a decent job at this most important position. Longterm things look fine but things could get ugly before they get good, and Roy would obviously have taken a lot of that burden had we not moved him.

Regarding Pardy, he was a throw-in. Whether his addition proves to be useful or not shouldn't really be considered in evaluating the trade as they obviously wanted a low-level vet and if they didn't get him thrown into the deal they would have just signed another similar player. At worst he's going to help keep the organization deep with defensemen even through injuries in Buffalo and Rochester.

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01-08-2013, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
I don't see how the cancellation of 34 games would change your opinion of a trade that changes team culture.

The trade wasn't made to turn the 12-13 edition into Cup Champs.

C'mon.
No, cancelling 34 games doesn't change my opinion about the trade, but as I said it made me wonder about what value Pardy added to the deal. And I understand it's not a trade to turn Sabres into champs, but since Ott is a one year, does it change the culture long term?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with Ott and I'm happy with no Roy. I'm just wondering if Roy was sold cheap, that's all.

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01-08-2013, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Sabres gave on value (at least on talent) to do a bit of house cleaning and get tougher to play against. It's a good trade, especially mid/long-term (assuming he stays, or is as likely to stay as Roy was) with solid youth in the pipeline at center. We all have different feelings about Roy and whether he was a 'cancer'/'underachiever'/etc, but I think we can all agree that we'd rather have Ott as an influence over our latest batch of young players than Roy.

Still, over the next couple seasons, we better hope some combination of young players (Ennis/Hodgson of course, but Grigorenko is also a possibility), non-natural centers (Leino/Ott), and bottom 6 vets (McCormick/Porter/Ellis/anyone they bring in) can do a decent job at this most important position. Longterm things look fine but things could get ugly before they get good, and Roy would obviously have taken a lot of that burden had we not moved him.
I think you're absolutely right, and it's quite possible Roy needed to get out of the way for mentioned assets to reach their potential.

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01-08-2013, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisent42 View Post
No, cancelling 34 games doesn't change my opinion about the trade, but as I said it made me wonder about what value Pardy added to the deal. And I understand it's not a trade to turn Sabres into champs, but since Ott is a one year, does it change the culture long term?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with Ott and I'm happy with no Roy. I'm just wondering if Roy was sold cheap, that's all.
The only way the trade really works out a definite positive is if Ott re-signs or things work out well at center this year (especially due to a veteran addition). Because if we were only going to get 1 year out of either player, clearly we could use Roy at center right now.

I don't think Pardy ever should have influenced the evaluation of the trade either way, because I'm reasonably sure he wasn't significant to either GM in the negotiations. Dallas didn't want him and Darcy thought he was worth taking off their hands as part of the exchange is how I look at it. There's no way that's going to go bad for Buffalo, though it's not likely to be of great benefit, either. Though with McNabb doing as poorly as he is, it sure doesn't hurt to have Pardy there ahead of him in the organizational list.

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01-08-2013, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Wisent42 View Post
No, cancelling 34 games doesn't change my opinion about the trade, but as I said it made me wonder about what value Pardy added to the deal. And I understand it's not a trade to turn Sabres into champs, but since Ott is a one year, does it change the culture long term?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with Ott and I'm happy with no Roy. I'm just wondering if Roy was sold cheap, that's all.
Got it. Thanks for the additional clarification.

I would firmly believe that we would look to resign Ott - and the only way we don't is if this short season is a total disaster and we end up not wanting him or him not wanting to come back. I don't think any of that has to do with Roy, whose jettisoning in and of itself is significant - not even looking at how the return piece ends up faring.

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01-08-2013, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisent42 View Post
No, cancelling 34 games doesn't change my opinion about the trade, but as I said it made me wonder about what value Pardy added to the deal. And I understand it's not a trade to turn Sabres into champs, but since Ott is a one year, does it change the culture long term?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with Ott and I'm happy with no Roy. I'm just wondering if Roy was sold cheap, that's all.
dont know what your talking about.....Ott is here for 2 years. Roy was injured and is a UFA after 48 games
.

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01-08-2013, 06:19 AM
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My theory:
Pardy was a salary dump on the part of the Stars (like Kotalik). He was not in their plans and nobody wanted him. It was the Sabres "payment" for the Stars to pay Roy during his recovery from surgery this fall.

I think Pardy will be waived and assigned to Rochester for depth. $1.1 million of his salary will count towards the cap this year.

Maybe we can trade him to the Islanders since Vishnovsky is staying in Slovakia. We can pay half his salary and the Islanders can keep his cap hit (if the rule works that way, still confused about that one).

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01-08-2013, 06:46 AM
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Meh.

I didn't like it then, I don't like it now.

For all the "this team needs size and grit" talk, this team is still low on top-end talent, and swapping Roy for Ott doesn't help in any way in that department.

Honestly, I see it as a downgrade now and I don't think they'll benefit from it in the long run.

I think Ott's an overrated grinder/agitator with some hockey skill and Roy has become an underrated elite #2 center (yes, that's right, not quite a true #1 C, but an elite #2).

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01-08-2013, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
dont know what your talking about.....Ott is here for 2 years. Roy was injured and is a UFA after 48 games
.
I agree, the most important part of this seems to have been missed by a lot of you. Roy is coming up on a significant raise at the end of this season. This significantly decreases his trade value. Ott is a great fit for this team, he's signed through 2014 and I'd say we have a better chance of resigning him if he plays well here. I consider this a huge win for Darcy. The only way this trade doesn't work in the Sabres' favor is if you think we were a cup contender this year and wanted to hang on to Roy until the deadline to evaluate.

Pardy is absolutely a salary dump to even up this trade. I haven't seen any details on whether minor league contracts over a certain value count against the cap in the new CBA. If so he becomes a bigger issue, but that was a risk Darcy took.

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01-08-2013, 07:20 AM
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I think Roy didn't get nearly the respect from the fans that he should have gotten. I really don't know why, since he scored 316 points in 350 games for uns from 2006 to 2011. He even led the team in points in 2008 (averaging more than a point per game) 2009, 2010 (and additionally led the team in PPG in 2011). He was arguably our best and most consistent forward during that span. Unfortunately, he had a terrible year last year and I had the feeling that he was somewhat like the scapegoat.

I still like the tade, though. I think we gave up more skill than we got in return, but we got additional physical toughness. Ott is a nice fit for this team which always seemed to lack toughness. Moreover, our team got different. You all know the saying "Never change a winning team" - but our team wasn't winning, so I like the fact that they were trying to change something to make this team better. If the trade didn't happen, people would complain about how this team keeps holding on to the same players every year... And even though Roy is the more skilled player, Ott can play hockey, too - let's not forget about that.

I also don't see the urgency for a new #1 center. Hodgson has to made the next step, he's got the potential to be a #1 center and I expect him to deliver this season. And even if he doesn't step up, we still have Grigorenko in the near future looming into the team.

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01-08-2013, 07:27 AM
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I would've liked to get more than Ott, but I still think it's an addition by subtraction move. I'll miss Roy's production but I feel that he was a large part of the losing culture in the locker room.

It's tough to really assess the cultural upside / downside to it as a fan with any degree of certainty because we're not privy to what happens behind those closed doors. No question that we've lost raw production, though.

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01-08-2013, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corto View Post
Meh.

I didn't like it then, I don't like it now.

For all the "this team needs size and grit" talk, this team is still low on top-end talent, and swapping Roy for Ott doesn't help in any way in that department.

Honestly, I see it as a downgrade now and I don't think they'll benefit from it in the long run.

I think Ott's an overrated grinder/agitator with some hockey skill and Roy has become an underrated elite #2 center (yes, that's right, not quite a true #1 C, but an elite #2).
This. And if Roy comes out on fire after getting surgery on his shoulder I will be very annoyed. I have a bit of a conspiracy theory about this trade. I always wondered if Darcy really wanted to make this trade, or if he was forced to by Pegula, who we know listens to WGR and hears Paul Hamilton and The Bulldog act as if Roy personally committed a crime against them. I really hope that's not how the operation works here, but it wouldn't surprise me.

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01-08-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Clock View Post
I would've liked to get more than Ott, but I still think it's an addition by subtraction move. I'll miss Roy's production but I feel that he was a large part of the losing culture in the locker room.

It's tough to really assess the cultural upside / downside to it as a fan with any degree of certainty because we're not privy to what happens behind those closed doors. No question that we've lost raw production, though.
exactly

this thread reminds me of how wonderful things were going in remaking this team before the lockout...

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01-08-2013, 09:07 AM
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This. And if Roy comes out on fire after getting surgery on his shoulder I will be very annoyed. I have a bit of a conspiracy theory about this trade. I always wondered if Darcy really wanted to make this trade, or if he was forced to by Pegula, who we know listens to WGR and hears Paul Hamilton and The Bulldog act as if Roy personally committed a crime against them. I really hope that's not how the operation works here, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I think Roy will have a real good season for the Stars. I don't think the Sabres would do so well if he had stayed though. Roy's teammates may have been against him and it certainly seems that Roy is anti-Ruff.

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01-08-2013, 09:16 AM
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exactly

this thread reminds me of how wonderful things were going in remaking this team before the lockout...
Agreed. Miro Satan was awfully talented too, but he had to go and Buffalo was better for it. At least here we got someone in return (unlike Miro), and someone whose pedigree leads me to believe he will be a positive influence both on the ice and in the locker room.

I wish Darcy could have squeezed a bit more out of the trade as well, but I am not sure the market warrented any greater return on an undersized, injured UFA.

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01-08-2013, 10:16 AM
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This. And if Roy comes out on fire after getting surgery on his shoulder I will be very annoyed. I have a bit of a conspiracy theory about this trade. I always wondered if Darcy really wanted to make this trade, or if he was forced to by Pegula, who we know listens to WGR and hears Paul Hamilton and The Bulldog act as if Roy personally committed a crime against them. I really hope that's not how the operation works here, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Let's take the tinfoil hat off..it's a little too tight.

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01-08-2013, 10:23 AM
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This. And if Roy comes out on fire after getting surgery on his shoulder I will be very annoyed. I have a bit of a conspiracy theory about this trade. I always wondered if Darcy really wanted to make this trade, or if he was forced to by Pegula, who we know listens to WGR and hears Paul Hamilton and The Bulldog act as if Roy personally committed a crime against them. I really hope that's not how the operation works here, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It doesn't really matter whether WGR was too hard on Roy. The question is, do you think Derek Roy is good enough to be Buffalo's #1 center moving forward? If not, they're not resigning him, so trade him away and start searching for a real #1 to spend money on. Getting a player who can help the lineup for the next two years without hurting their cap space is a bonus as far as I'm concerned. First you have to admit this was not a team that was challenging for the cup before trading away Derek Roy.

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01-08-2013, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
This. And if Roy comes out on fire after getting surgery on his shoulder I will be very annoyed. I have a bit of a conspiracy theory about this trade. I always wondered if Darcy really wanted to make this trade, or if he was forced to by Pegula, who we know listens to WGR and hears Paul Hamilton and The Bulldog act as if Roy personally committed a crime against them. I really hope that's not how the operation works here, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Why would the same Pegula that took the Buff News staff to task for criticizing the players care what Hamilton or Bulldog think?

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01-08-2013, 11:19 AM
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Why would the same Pegula that took the Buff News staff to task for criticizing the players care what Hamilton or Bulldog think?
Thou shall not pole holes in the conspiracy theory

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01-08-2013, 11:19 AM
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Why would the same Pegula that took the Buff News staff to task for criticizing the players care what Hamilton or Bulldog think?
He also said he was one job, and that is to be liked. There was no player less well liked in the community, and WGR was at the front of that train. It was a popular move, but I don't think it was a good hockey move.

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01-08-2013, 11:38 AM
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He also said he was one job, and that is to be liked. There was no player less well liked in the community, and WGR was at the front of that train. It was a popular move, but I don't think it was a good hockey move.
More likely, IMO, Darcy is getting adept at identifying the team scapegoats, and pinning blame on them (at least internally) to keep his seat from getting too hot with Black and Pegula. So much of the scorn directed at him and the team was his belief that Connolly and Roy were "top-20 centers." He let Timmy walk, and he jettisoned Roy in consecutive summers. Don't be surprised when he trades Miller or Stafford (the scapegoat-elect) after another failure to qualify for the playoffs.

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01-08-2013, 12:03 PM
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More likely, IMO, Darcy is getting adept at identifying the team scapegoats, and pinning blame on them (at least internally) to keep his seat from getting too hot with Black and Pegula. So much of the scorn directed at him and the team was his belief that Connolly and Roy were "top-20 centers." He let Timmy walk, and he jettisoned Roy in consecutive summers. Don't be surprised when he trades Miller or Stafford (the scapegoat-elect) after another failure to qualify for the playoffs.
I find it hard to believe Darcy is that cynical.

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01-08-2013, 12:34 PM
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More likely, IMO, Darcy is getting adept at identifying the team scapegoats, and pinning blame on them (at least internally) to keep his seat from getting too hot with Black and Pegula. So much of the scorn directed at him and the team was his belief that Connolly and Roy were "top-20 centers." He let Timmy walk, and he jettisoned Roy in consecutive summers. Don't be surprised when he trades Miller or Stafford (the scapegoat-elect) after another failure to qualify for the playoffs.
Are you saying the Owner and President are clueless? Come on....Sounds like agenda.

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