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Habs-Flyers proposal

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Old
01-08-2013, 12:39 AM
  #51
Sasso09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
No they are not equal in value. A franchise defenseman always holds more value than a franchise forward.
Couturier has a slim chance of ever becomming a "franchise" forward... Subban is not a franchise defenseman.... But I agree #1 defenseman are a little more valuable than #1 center.. I think these two are even value at this point

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01-08-2013, 12:59 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Couturier has a slim chance of ever becomming a "franchise" forward... Subban is not a franchise defenseman.... But I agree #1 defenseman are a little more valuable than #1 center.. I think these two are even value at this point
You thought Hjalmarsson was better than Smid. I don't think you are qualified to comment on Subban.

Every time I have to remind people about who Subban is it is a bit annoying.

Subban was one of only 15 NHL defencemen to play over 23 minutes, in all situations, produce over 30 points, give over 100 hits, make over 100 blocked shots, and play against each opponent's top offensive lines.

Couturier was a third line shut down center who produced under 30 points. Couturier has a lot of potential, and is young enough to be very interesting, but not for Subban. Not at this point in their careers. Heck, we already have our wn version of Couturier in Eller. We have nobody else like Subban.

Couturier is very good. He is not worth Subban.

Wait, now you claim Couturier is better defensively than Plekanec NOW??? Based on what? The same fantasy land where Hammer was better than Smid? Please, explain how Couturier is better defensively than Plekanec. I would appreciate ANY statistical or factual support.


Last edited by Drydenwasthebest: 01-08-2013 at 01:18 AM.
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Old
01-08-2013, 01:02 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Playmaker09 View Post
Plekanec played on the second line with Moen and Darche for half the year and still put up more points. With competent offensive players he's put up ~70 points twice. Again, there's no argument for Voracek being the better player right now.

Who will replace Couturier's defensive play? Umm, I don't know? Maybe the guy who only a year ago finished 13th in Selke voting (15th this year, in a down year)? The guy who shut down Crosby (5 points in 7 games), Ovechkin/Backstrom (had two outstanding games, but were held to 5 points combined in the other 5 games) and Krejci (held to one point in 7 games, then went on to lead the playoffs in scoring as the Bruins won the cup) in the playoffs? The guy who, this year, played the second most PK minutes among all NHL forwards and lead the Habs to the #2 overall penalty kill?

He's either one of the most underrated players in the league, or you're just badly misinformed.
QFT.

People, please read this. Plekanec is far superior to Couturier right now. In all honesty, Philly fans would be over joyed if he became as good as Plekanec.

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01-08-2013, 01:06 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Sorry, but if you can get Couturier, you send Lars Eller packing everywhere for whatever you can get. Or play Eller at wing.

I wouldn't necessarily make that deal, but having Lars Eller in the lineup is NOT a reason to turn down a trade involving Couturier getting to Montreal.
It is if the cost is Subban and Plekanec for Couturier and Voracek! Why do we give the two better players in the deal? The two rookies in the OP are not evening out the balance by any stretch of the imagination.

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01-08-2013, 01:14 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Stizzle View Post
Does a trade or poll involving Couturier have to be posted every single day on this board? Seriously people, he is not getting traded. I know the Flyers are deep at center, could use a number one defenseman, but this is a very special player. Ed Snider is said to be a huge Couts backer. That alone says he won't be traded.
Where have we heard this before? Hmmmm...

Oh, yeah!

Carter is untouchable.

Richards will never be traded.

JvR is something special we will not trade him ever.

Strangely, none of them play for Philly.

Yes, Couturier is excellent RIGHT NOW. He still has a lot of development to do, and, as has been shown, is not untouchable as long as Homer is GM.

Philly will love this young guy, and should keep him. The same is true for Montreal and Subban.

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Old
01-08-2013, 05:17 AM
  #56
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Subban

For

Simmons
Coburn
1st

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Old
01-08-2013, 05:22 AM
  #57
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If I were a habs fan in favour of them going through a rebuild, I'd do this and draft Seth Jones. Montreal would have a much stronger core down the road.

As for the Flyers, this helps mend the wounds on the blueline for sure.

Good proposal.

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Old
01-08-2013, 07:38 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You thought Hjalmarsson was better than Smid. I don't think you are qualified to comment on Subban.

Every time I have to remind people about who Subban is it is a bit annoying.

Subban was one of only 15 NHL defencemen to play over 23 minutes, in all situations, produce over 30 points, give over 100 hits, make over 100 blocked shots, and play against each opponent's top offensive lines.

Couturier was a third line shut down center who produced under 30 points. Couturier has a lot of potential, and is young enough to be very interesting, but not for Subban. Not at this point in their careers. Heck, we already have our wn version of Couturier in Eller. We have nobody else like Subban.

Couturier is very good. He is not worth Subban.

Wait, now you claim Couturier is better defensively than Plekanec NOW??? Based on what? The same fantasy land where Hammer was better than Smid? Please, explain how Couturier is better defensively than Plekanec. I would appreciate ANY statistical or factual support.
This could all be solved I you would have actually just watched him play last season. Evidently you did not because as it statnds you have NO idea what you're talking about. The fact that you just compared couturier to Eller rectifies that.

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Old
01-08-2013, 07:43 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
Subban

For

Simmons
Coburn
1st
Who is Simmons?? If you meant Simmonds, it is too much for Philly to lose. Philly need Coburn and Simmonds too much to trade them together with a 1st, even for Subban.

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Old
01-08-2013, 07:46 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
QFT.

People, please read this. Plekanec is far superior to Couturier right now. In all honesty, Philly fans would be over joyed if he became as good as Plekanec.
Once again, a Habs fans fails to miss the point. For some reason you are all just assuming that players simply can't get better. Like its some kind of unheard of occurance. You do understand that he was 18/19 years old last year, correct? Where was plekanec when he was that young? Oh that's right, he didnt play more than 2 games in the nhl until he was 23. Wow. Could it be that he GASP! Wasn't as good as couturier is now when he was his age? Yes, that's exactly it.

To say that we'd be lucky if couturier ever becomes Tomas plekanec tells me that your judgement is based off some sort of fantasy world.

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01-08-2013, 07:50 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcadiaAxeMan View Post
What do Hab/Flyer fans think of this trade:

Subban+Plekanecs+Palushaj

for

Couturier+Voracek+Bourdon


Why Flyers consider it? IMO Flyers have Laughton coming along to eventually replace Couturier and get PK to replace Pronger's minutes and a SOLID #2 center NOW to go for it this year.

Why Habs consider it? IMO Habs get a young-strong defensive C for many years in Couturier which allows Deharnais and Elller to take more offensive rolls (+Galyenchuck) a solid winger top 6 winger in Voracek (to displace Bourque on the top 6) and a solid young D-man with toughness. We have solid D prospects in Beaulieu/Tinordi/Bennet.


Markov-Emelin
Kaberle-Gorges
Boullion-Diaz/Weber/Bourdon

Cole-Deharnais-Pacioretty
Voracek-Eller-Gionta
Prust-Couturier-Armstrong/Bourque
Moen-Gomez/Nokelainen-White


Discuss.....
:shake head
Terable For the Habs, Pleks is great and Subban will be a star ...Couturier has potential but has nothing to show he will take the next step and be a star in the NHL....Voracek id love to have him i think he will be a good sniper but not in this deal.

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Old
01-08-2013, 07:51 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
Subban

For

Simmons
Coburn
1st
No thanks. - Coburn + Subban is completely counter productive for us. The idea is to get better defensively, not lose our best defenseman in order to add another defenseman.

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01-08-2013, 07:52 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You thought Hjalmarsson was better than Smid. I don't think you are qualified to comment on Subban.

Every time I have to remind people about who Subban is it is a bit annoying.

Subban was one of only 15 NHL defencemen to play over 23 minutes, in all situations, produce over 30 points, give over 100 hits, make over 100 blocked shots, and play against each opponent's top offensive lines.

Couturier was a third line shut down center who produced under 30 points. Couturier has a lot of potential, and is young enough to be very interesting, but not for Subban. Not at this point in their careers. Heck, we already have our wn version of Couturier in Eller. We have nobody else like Subban.

Couturier is very good. He is not worth Subban.

Wait, now you claim Couturier is better defensively than Plekanec NOW??? Based on what? The same fantasy land where Hammer was better than Smid? Please, explain how Couturier is better defensively than Plekanec. I would appreciate ANY statistical or factual support.
So much is wrong with this post. Starting with the fact that I mentioned Smid and Hjalmarsson are close, which they are.. Then comparing couturier to Eller... Wow... And then finishing by saying Philly could only hope couturier turns out better than Pleks. Let me tell you, if couturier ends up Pleks he's a huge bust.

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01-08-2013, 08:00 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Couts being on the PP (which he wasn't) has nothing to do with his defensively play, which is better than Plekanec's.
Meant PK, he plays on the 2nd unit of the 17th ranked PK whereas Plekanec is on the first unit of the 2nd best PK in the league.

Not to mention that Plekanec faced tougher competition than Couturier did all year.

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01-08-2013, 08:14 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Yes because the model, humble fanbase of the canadiens is immune to any sort of homerism or over evaluation. That's just blasphemy... You know whos better than Subban? A guy named Weber. You know who wanted Couturier in a trade? David Poile, in exchange for Weber. Clearly that man, who I could safely say probably knows the game more than you do, sees it differently. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Subban for Couturier. Far from the truth. I don't even think Subban is a #1 defenseman. I think he'll be a good #2 guy on most teams. I do not think he makes our team better enough to trade couturier for him.
The Flyers turned down Couts +++ for Weber. Dont kid yourself. If it was Couts for Weber straight up, The Flyers would have done it.

Couts is a good player with the potential to be great. It would take a hell of alot to get him out of Philly.

That goes the same for Subban. He is more valuable to the Habs than Couts is to the Flyers. It would take a hell of alot to get Subban.

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01-08-2013, 08:23 AM
  #66
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Seems like a relatively balanced offer. I would pass from the Habs' POV, however. Subban is just too difficult to replace, and getting a forward back for him isn't really something that the Habs can live with atm.

I think Couturier surprised a lot of people with the maturity level of his game and handled his defensive responsibilities spectacularly in his rookie season, which really provides a great deal of hope and optimism for his complete game looking forward, but... I think some fans must be completely unaware of who Plekanec is and how he plays if they are saying Couturier is so clearly better right now in that respect. I'd rather have Couturier than Plekanec anyway, mind you, as an overall asset, but it's on future potential, not on present ability.

For me, from the Habs' POV, as trade assets, Subban > Couturier > Plekanec > Voracek, and the other two players don't matter. All of those ">" signs represent fairly close comparisons too, so it shouldn't be considered a "terrible" offer any way you slice it. It's just that for the Habs, there are other ways to manage the hope of having a good two-way forward already in hand - Plekanec himself is one, Eller shows signs of becoming one. We wouldn't have the size and full potential of Couturier there, but maybe something in a reasonable enough proximity to get by. Whereas with Subban... approximating what he does or replacing him would just be a much bigger challenge. Hence passing from the Habs' POV.

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01-08-2013, 08:33 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
i like couturier and voracek is coming around but habs restocked with the likes of galchenyuk, collberg, etc.
dmen like subban are generational imo, so no deal fro Montreal's pov
PK will be a very good NHL player, but you are crazy if you think he is generational.

He would have a very tough time cracking the top 10, and there is no chance he is a top 5 so generational is a bit too strong of a statement.

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01-08-2013, 09:25 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
This could all be solved I you would have actually just watched him play last season. Evidently you did not because as it stands you have NO idea what you're talking about. The fact that you just compared couturier to Eller rectifies that.
I DID ACTUALLY watch all of the players in question last year. Eller was comparable to Couturier, not better than him. However, we have nobody COMPARABLE to Subban. Unless you are under some notion that Couturier is head and shoulders above Eller, which he is not. Couturier is better, but they are comparable.

I love the fun part of your post where you try to dismiss everything I say without any kind of objective support at all simply because you do not understand what is meant when someone says "we have our own version of Couturier in Eller".

Please, try to actually use something other than your own uninformed opinion to dismiss what I say in the future.

This is an example of comparable:

Both players played on the third line as a center.

Couturier: 77 GP, 27 points, +18, 82 hits, 33 blocked shots, +22 takeaways, TOI/ES: 10:59, PK:2:41, PP::26

Eller: 79 GP, 28 points, -5, 72 hits, 55 blocked shots, +11 takeaways, TOI/ES: 12:57, PK: 1:41, PP: .39

They are incredibly close, statistically. They play the same position on the same line. They are the very definition of COMPARABLE. Couturier comes out ahead, but not significantly so.

Please, try to include small things like facts when you try to dismiss someone who has watched and loved hockey for almost 4 decades.

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01-08-2013, 09:54 AM
  #69
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That trade proposal is absolutely ridiculous... Anybody who claims Couturier has more value than Plekanec is completely out of his/her mind. Plekanec is not an average defensive forward, he's one of the best at D. Plus he still manages to get over 50 points (even twice over 65). Now people claim a rookie who got 28 points last year while playing good defense is better? Please...

Plus, Subban is a special player. He's wroth more than Voracek, even a lot more.

So I really don't think we can claim this trade proposal is even close to being fair.

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01-08-2013, 10:16 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I DID ACTUALLY watch all of the players in question last year. Eller was comparable to Couturier, not better than him. However, we have nobody COMPARABLE to Subban. Unless you are under some notion that Couturier is head and shoulders above Eller, which he is not. Couturier is better, but they are comparable.

I love the fun part of your post where you try to dismiss everything I say without any kind of objective support at all simply because you do not understand what is meant when someone says "we have our own version of Couturier in Eller".

Please, try to actually use something other than your own uninformed opinion to dismiss what I say in the future.

This is an example of comparable:

Both players played on the third line as a center.

Couturier: 77 GP, 27 points, +18, 82 hits, 33 blocked shots, +22 takeaways, TOI/ES: 10:59, PK:2:41, PP::26

Eller: 79 GP, 28 points, -5, 72 hits, 55 blocked shots, +11 takeaways, TOI/ES: 12:57, PK: 1:41, PP: .39

They are incredibly close, statistically. They play the same position on the same line. They are the very definition of COMPARABLE. Couturier comes out ahead, but not significantly so.

Please, try to include small things like facts when you try to dismiss someone who has watched and loved hockey for almost 4 decades.
I see no mention of the age of the players in question when they did this. I assume that your 4 decades of experience would tell you that the 3 years and 8 months of development time between when Couturier did what he did at 18/19 would matter at least a little bit in comparison to what Eller did at age 21/22. No AHL time. No year at the NHL level the year before. No season at the AHL level nor cup of tea at the NHL level before that.

While I understand the overall sentiment about the trade, I would argue that the comparison of Couturier and Eller only holds water if you live in a bubble where circumstance and NHL level training/experience doesn't matter in development.

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01-08-2013, 11:15 AM
  #71
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As a hab fan I would the subban vs coburn + simmonds + 1 round

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01-08-2013, 11:16 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by AmeriHab View Post
Couturier still is sitting behind Schenn and that other guy? oh what's his name... Giroux! How long till the guy is sick of playing 3rd line center and never getting a real shot and wants a trade? Jordan Stall 2.0?
Schenn's going to see a lot of time out on the wing. And with Couturier's shutdown responsibilities, minutes will not be an issue with him. Staal didn't log as many minutes because of the massive icetime Malkin and Crosby demand.

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01-08-2013, 11:36 AM
  #73
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I think couturier is a stud ... He is and will be better then Schenn ... Couturier is a complete player ! He will never be the 100 point guy but couturier will be a 70 to 80 point guy and he will be a stud in defence kind of like datsyuk

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01-08-2013, 11:41 AM
  #74
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Value is there.

Subban will re-sign with MTL, and if i were them i wouldnt want to get rid of him, even for a guy like Coots. Subbans a warrior out there, shakey defensive lapses aside, his drive and passion are clearly evident. He will progress to become a very solid hockey player. Will definetly be a leader in the lockerroom after a few more seasons under his belt.

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01-08-2013, 11:48 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I DID ACTUALLY watch all of the players in question last year. Eller was comparable to Couturier, not better than him. However, we have nobody COMPARABLE to Subban. Unless you are under some notion that Couturier is head and shoulders above Eller, which he is not. Couturier is better, but they are comparable.

I love the fun part of your post where you try to dismiss everything I say without any kind of objective support at all simply because you do not understand what is meant when someone says "we have our own version of Couturier in Eller".

Please, try to actually use something other than your own uninformed opinion to dismiss what I say in the future.

This is an example of comparable:

Both players played on the third line as a center.

Couturier: 77 GP, 27 points, +18, 82 hits, 33 blocked shots, +22 takeaways, TOI/ES: 10:59, PK:2:41, PP::26

Eller: 79 GP, 28 points, -5, 72 hits, 55 blocked shots, +11 takeaways, TOI/ES: 12:57, PK: 1:41, PP: .39

They are incredibly close, statistically. They play the same position on the same line. They are the very definition of COMPARABLE. Couturier comes out ahead, but not significantly so.

Please, try to include small things like facts when you try to dismiss someone who has watched and loved hockey for almost 4 decades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I see no mention of the age of the players in question when they did this. I assume that your 4 decades of experience would tell you that the 3 years and 8 months of development time between when Couturier did what he did at 18/19 would matter at least a little bit in comparison to what Eller did at age 21/22. No AHL time. No year at the NHL level the year before. No season at the AHL level nor cup of tea at the NHL level before that.

While I understand the overall sentiment about the trade, I would argue that the comparison of Couturier and Eller only holds water if you live in a bubble where circumstance and NHL level training/experience doesn't matter in development.
Moreover, Couturier played almost exclusively on the 4th line except for those 2 games or so when Giroux was out.

I dont know who Eller regularly played with but Couturier's linemates were usually a combination of Max Talbot, Jody Shelly, Zac Rinaldo and Eric Wellwood.

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