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Luongo: Light at the end of the tunnel?

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01-08-2013, 10:14 AM
  #751
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young stars = concussion candidates
Jake Gardiner?

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01-08-2013, 10:14 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I agree with 98% of your post...the bolded being the part i don't. You'd need to define "significant assets".
good point .. and referring to the last post what I mean is that without salary retention the value is near the low side of what has been discussed here ad nauseum (bozak + prospect). and with salary retention it will be more like the high side. (bozak + kulemin + prospect/pick) .. so I guess the difference is kulemin, which to me is a significant asset. as much as it pains me to include him in a deal if they can make the contract palatable to burke it would be worth pulling the trigger IMO

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01-08-2013, 10:14 AM
  #753
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Checking in on the Luongo thread...

Baseless speculation running rampant? Check.
Posters talking like they're GMs of their teams? Check.
Same arguments as last April? Check.

Keep it up boys, right on shedule.

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01-08-2013, 10:15 AM
  #754
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Oh, ok. Then I disagree with your assessment. His value was being debated _before_ the ability to retain salary even became an option. I'm pretty confident it's not in the tank, but we'll see.
this is the part im really excited for

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01-08-2013, 10:17 AM
  #755
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Don't get me wrong, if you want him, go crazy. The posts I'm seeing referring to are the ones that start off with Edmonton being a darkhorse/moderately interested in Luongo and then, BAM, thread ends up becoming "no one wants to go to Edmonton, they aren't winners blah blah"

And I agree, for all parties involved, price needs to be right


Can you people tell me what they read into Luongo saying that Gillis has free license to do what's best for the Canucks? It seemed like he was all but relinquishing his NTC there. Or posturing to help get Gillis value. He then was asked about FLA and he said he doesn't want to localize his attention to one place, and that he was considering anything that comes his way.



If Luongo waives for TOR, or any other team not named FLA, it only speaks volumes for his character and professionalism. I still don't think he will be that liberal with his NTC. But if he is, you have to admire him.

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01-08-2013, 10:18 AM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Seventeen Twos View Post
this is the part im really excited for

Me too, just so we can get it on record, can you tell me what his currently "tanked" value would be? Edit: Ah nevermind, you alluded to Bozak + prospect (Kadri?)? as his "tanked" value correct?

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01-08-2013, 10:19 AM
  #757
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This is true....it's the multiple pieces that would be demanded on top that would greatly lower that number.
I was responding to the Schneider is an unproven backup has no value argument which is so 2009.

Teams which I think would swap their starter one for one for Schneider (Bolded teams that would make a bid for Schneider and a + for those that might bid for Lou):

Anaheim
Calgary
Chicago +
Columbus
Dallas
Detroit
Edmonton +
Minnesota
Phoenix
San Jose
Florida +
New Jersey
NYI
Ottawa
Philly
Tampa
Toronto +
Washington
Winnipeg


Teams I think would prefer Schenider one for one but not certain:
Boston
St Louis
Buffalo
Carolina
Pittsburgh

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01-08-2013, 10:20 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
Don't get me wrong, if you want him, go crazy. The posts I'm seeing referring to are the ones that start off with Edmonton being a darkhorse/moderately interested in Luongo and then, BAM, thread ends up becoming "no one wants to go to Edmonton, they aren't winners blah blah"

And I agree, for all parties involved, price needs to be right
I'll say this, of any team (including my beloved Leafs), the Oilers have the best group of young potential anywhere.

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01-08-2013, 10:20 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
This is the least original comment on HF Boards. Really. It is.

How do you value any elite youngster??????

Yakupov has no value?

We've heard this a million times and stating it again is not going to make it a valid point. Schneider has nothing to prove to gartner a high return in a trade. 25 teams would swap what they have in a heartbeat for him.

Was merely responding to yet another Canuck fan comment of how great a value Schneider holds.
If you want to comment on " least original comments " than perhaps you might want to look a little closer to home.
Fact .. Schneider has yet to play a season as a number 1.
Would I like to see him Chicago .. yes. Would I offer a mega deal? No as he is not worth it at this point in his career.
If I were Gillis I would look hold onto Lou until Lack is looking healthy at which time there should be a team in the east willing to trade a fair value.

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01-08-2013, 10:21 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
Checking in on the Luongo thread...

Baseless speculation running rampant? Check.
Posters talking like they're GMs of their teams? Check.
Same arguments as last April? Check.

Keep it up boys, right on shedule.
Resolution is close finally. Even Lou staying for the year is resolution on the Toronto and Florida discussions. Two weeks away from these threads dying.

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01-08-2013, 10:23 AM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I'll say this, of any team (including my beloved Leafs), the Oilers have the best group of young potential anywhere.
By far. Not even close. Looking at the prospect pool and the youngsters on the team this is the best we have seen since 2006 with Pittsburgh. I am not sure Edmonton has what they had then, but let's see.

If they fill in around the edges, get a better (elite) goalie and get great coaching I don't see how they won't be a contender for many years.

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01-08-2013, 10:29 AM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I wouldn't confuse "fair value" and "market value/perceived value". There's a difference.



You're right _if_ there's only one team. But past speculation and now the flexibility provided in the new CBA, ensure that won't be the case. But let's see...








All comes down to if they feel he can be re-signed long-term. Especially when he will not negotiate during the season. Can they take the chance of letting him walk when they could get a premier player back? Theodore is also walking at the end of the year (most likely). It seems like an opportunity to get a signed, high end athlete for soon to be departing assets. That's if they don't want to risk Weiss walking, of course...
Fair value is what Luongo will be traded for. There may be cap flexibility in the new CBA, but do you really believe that Vancouver wants to keep dead salary cap space on their roster? Priority #1 for Vancouver will be finding a destination that allows them to not have dead salary cap space on their roster for the next 10 years.

If Weiss can't be signed long term, they'd be best served to trade him for a assets that can grow with their young team. Theodore loves playing in Florida, so him walking is far from a forgone conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
Unlikely yes, but you can't argue with acquiring a goalie of Luongo's caliber either for them as well.

I guess it all depends on what they personally view Markstrom progress and how long until his ready.

I would like to hear from someone who has watched Markstrom this year to see how his doing, I know the stats but that doesn't really explain that much.

Part of me feels that Gillis is doing his part to create buzz and tallan wouldn't mind either if that means Burke pays more. Burke just isn't wired that way though.
You absolutely can. Florida's a young, budget team. Jose Theodore had quite similar numbers to Luongo last year, loves playing there, and has 1/4 of the salary. Luongo may want to go there, but there really isn't a good reason to trade for him. If they're going to spend another $4m, they'd be best doing it on a positional player.

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01-08-2013, 10:32 AM
  #763
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Originally Posted by crazyhawk View Post
Was merely responding to yet another Canuck fan comment of how great a value Schneider holds.
If you want to comment on " least original comments " than perhaps you might want to look a little closer to home.
Fact .. Schneider has yet to play a season as a number 1.
Would I like to see him Chicago .. yes. Would I offer a mega deal? No as he is not worth it at this point in his career.
NHL teams have these guys called "pro scouts" and these pro scouts would look at Schneider's performances throughout his career (elite at every level) and his mental make-up (one of the most level heads I've ever seen on a goalie) as well as his talent (does not quit, elite leg speed) and then said NHL team would make their decision from there.

What they wouldn't do is say "he hasn't played a whole season yet, pass" because that would be incredibly short-sighted and ignorant.

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01-08-2013, 10:34 AM
  #764
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
By far. Not even close. Looking at the prospect pool and the youngsters on the team this is the best we have seen since 2006 with Pittsburgh. I am not sure Edmonton has what they had then, but let's see.

If they fill in around the edges, get a better (elite) goalie and get great coaching I don't see how they won't be a contender for many years.
Sorry, i should have stated best young NHL potential. Hall, Eberle, Hopkins, Schultz, Yakupov will all (most likely) be with the Oil this season....who has better young NHL potential? Now, i agree, they need to compliment these guys with some veteran talent to even out young mistakes...but damn....looks like a nice start.

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01-08-2013, 10:35 AM
  #765
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Fair value is what Luongo will be traded for. There may be cap flexibility in the new CBA, but do you really believe that Vancouver wants to keep dead salary cap space on their roster? Priority #1 for Vancouver will be finding a destination that allows them to not have dead salary cap space on their roster for the next 10 years.

If Weiss can't be signed long term, they'd be best served to trade him for a assets that can grow with their young team. Theodore loves playing in Florida, so him walking is far from a forgone conclusion.


I agree with your first paragraph, but the dead cap space only comes into play if they try to shoe-horn a deal somewhere. It's a possiblity. Not a likelihood.


Fair value will be what he is traded for, I agree. Market value/perceived value is irrelevant. The only point at which he will move is when the perception aligns somewhat with what he is actually worth (only Gillis can truly know this).


Theodore will be 36. Loving to play for FLA is one thing, continually earning a contract is another.


Yes, Weiss seems to make a lot of sense, if he is on the block. Tallon will have to make that call.

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01-08-2013, 10:36 AM
  #766
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I agree with you that Van should retain Luongo. My one question is this, in a 48 game sprint, you need to identify your number one goalie and ride him like a mule.....who is it between Lu/Schneider?
I wager we will ride Luongo as our number one and alternate Schneider similar to how we did last season. Lu is liable to quite motivated to prove his reputation and might perform even above expectations. Tis one of the reasons I want to keep him for this spirit to the finish.

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There's no ripoffs to be had... only fair market value. If there's only one team interested in taking on Luongo, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that team isn't going to start parting with core players.

Kadri should probably be available, as he's an expendable piece for the Leafs.
Proposals in this thread emulate a rip off not unlike Calgary, Anaheim and Nashville endured, albeit by their own choosing. Anaheim just did not realize what they had but either way, a good number of offers throw around here reflect Toronto fan's perception of "fair market value." What aggravates most Vancouver fans is our demands are deemed outlandish yet Toronto's are "fair." You have frequently attempted to push Lombardi as a viable trade bait we should find appealing. This is where "fair" becomes skewed as even the most biased of Leaf faithful know Lombardi is a cap dump, or should.


Quote:
QFT. Schneider's got a $4m contract, and about the experience level of James Reimer. Don't get me wrong there's a ton of potential there, but he's not a guy who you can trade for and say with confidence...that he's going to play 65 games and your goaltending isn't going to be a concern.
Yes, allow us to blatantly ignore the notable gap in statistics between Schneider and Reimer. Even a large portion of Leaf nation acknowledges Schneider is by far the superior goaltender, never mind just about every analyst. You would be alone in believing the two are even remotely comparable beyond games played.

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I'm not clear as to why Vancouver fans believe Schneider is worth a mega package.
He looks to be the real deal, but until he actually plays at least one full season as a number one than why consider him to be in the league of say a Lundqvist or Brodeur in his prime?
Schneider has proven stellar at every level since the onset of his career. He currently is playing at a comparable level to an elite goaltender and posted league records as a backup with absolutely insane stats. A few games watching him play and you can see quite early he has franchise tender practically engraved.

That said, I acknowledge he lacks longevity at the NHL level but I do not believe Gardiner+Kadri/1st (2014) is an outrageous demand. Steep perhaps but nothing more.

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01-08-2013, 10:37 AM
  #767
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I would do

Luongo

for

Hemsky
Pick

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01-08-2013, 10:38 AM
  #768
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I agree with your first paragraph, but the dead cap space only comes into play if they try to shoe-horn a deal somewhere. It's a possiblity. Not a likelihood.


Fair value will be what he is traded for, I agree. Market value/perceived value is irrelevant. The only point at which he will move is when the perception aligns somewhat with what he is actually worth (only Gillis can truly know this).


Theodore will be 36. Loving to play for FLA is one thing, continually earning a contract is another.


Yes, Weiss seems to make a lot of sense, if he is on the block. Tallon will have to make that call.
36 as a goaltender still has a couple of years left in the tank if he continues to play as well as he has. Theodore did a lot better earning his contract than Luongo did his.

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01-08-2013, 10:38 AM
  #769
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Luongo
Ballard
Raymond

for

Hemsky
Horcoff
MPS

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01-08-2013, 10:38 AM
  #770
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Originally Posted by MISC View Post
I would do

Luongo

for

Hemsky
Pick


I would do something around Gagner, MPS and a pick. No issues with trading him to EDM, and I hope Gillis sees the bigger picture here and gets value for his team.

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01-08-2013, 10:41 AM
  #771
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Yes, allow us to blatantly ignore the notable gap in statistics between Schneider and Reimer. Even a large portion of Leaf nation acknowledges Schneider is by far the superior goaltender, never mind just about every analyst. You would be alone in believing the two are even remotely comparable beyond games played.



Schneider has proven stellar at every level since the onset of his career. He currently is playing at a comparable level to an elite goaltender and posted league records as a backup with absolutely insane stats. A few games watching him play and you can see quite early he has franchise tender practically engraved.

That said, I acknowledge he lacks longevity at the NHL level but I do not believe Gardiner+Kadri/1st (2014) is an outrageous demand. Steep perhaps but nothing more.
I'm not ignoring the statistical differences between the two goaltenders, simply taking them into context of the relative roles that each has played in the ~70 games of their respective careers.

Asking for Gardiner+Kadri is an outrageous demand from Toronto. The last thing we need to do is part with our standout defenceman for an unproven goaltender with a big contract. It just reeks of Vesa Toskala 2.0.

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01-08-2013, 10:41 AM
  #772
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36 as a goaltender still has a couple of years left in the tank if he continues to play as well as he has. Theodore did a lot better earning his contract than Luongo did his.

Sure, Theodore did a lot better, last year. His play mixed with his salary made sense, last year. But he's been inconsistent for his entire career. Let's see if his play holds. Oh, and Luongo _earned_ his lifetime deal. He got paid that big money for a reason, something Theodore will never have the opportunity to do.


You said it: "if he continues"... I'm not betting on Theodore to do so. Not based on the history of his career.

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01-08-2013, 10:46 AM
  #773
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Sure, Theodore did a lot better, last year. His play mixed with his salary made sense, last year. But he's been inconsistent for his entire career. Let's see if his play holds. Oh, and Luongo _earned_ his lifetime deal. He got paid that big money for a reason, something Theodore will never have the opportunity to do.


You said it: "if he continues"... I'm not betting on Theodore to do so. Not based on the history of his career.
Hey, if you think it's a good idea to keep a goaltender where he doesn't want to be, and is incapable of playing as much as he needs to, ensuring his value drops, in hopes that another team's goaltending is going to fall enough to compensate for that reduced value -- all the power to you. You'd make a great GM!

edit: Furthermore... you may not bet on Theodore to so do, but I suspect his current team has a lot more faith in him than somebody who's meerly trying to convince themselves that they can get Stephen Weiss.


Last edited by seanlinden: 01-08-2013 at 10:52 AM.
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01-08-2013, 10:47 AM
  #774
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Hey, if you think it's a good idea to keep a goaltender where he doesn't want to be, and is incapable of playing as much as he needs to, ensuring his value drops, in hopes that another team's goaltending is going to fall enough to compensate for that reduced value -- all the power to you. You'd make a great GM!
"I'm proud to say I'm still a Canuck" = doesn't want to be there.

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01-08-2013, 10:50 AM
  #775
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Hey, if you think it's a good idea to keep a goaltender where he doesn't want to be, and is incapable of playing as much as he needs to, ensuring his value drops, in hopes that another team's goaltending is going to fall enough to compensate for that reduced value -- all the power to you. You'd make a great GM!


That sounds like a personal attack on my intelligence SL? Did you miss the mandate in the OP?



I'd retain him instead taking less value based on an arbitrary deadline (start of the season), yes.

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