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Luongo Talk: The Final Countdown...?

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01-08-2013, 09:44 AM
  #451
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Most of us don't feel we have a good chance. We also don't feel that Luongo makes us a contender....better? Absolutely. But the cost to aquire Luongo is what has most of us shying away.
The Leafs are not going to become a contender after being a lottery team in one off season, let alone with one trade. It's a process, adding Luongo will help the Leafs take a giant leap towards becoming a contender.

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01-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #452
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Weiss talk confuses me.

He is Florida's ONLY top-6 centreman.

Florida fans have consistently stated that Huberdeau is more likely to play LW than C, and both Bjugstad and Grimaldi are prospects. The notion that Florida would try to compete in a shortened season with both top 6 centres having zero NHL experience... wat.

Sure, they could tank, but why the **** would they trade for Lu if that was their goal.
He's a UFA this year, apparently he's unhappy in florida so they'll try and get something in return for him.

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01-08-2013, 09:50 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Let's say i agree, what price should Burke pay just to achieve a playoff spot but not contend?

And if he lands in FLA...then so be it.
That all depends on what his employers want, do they want to flounder around the bottom for a few more years or try to make it into the playoffs, where anything can happen?

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01-08-2013, 09:54 AM
  #454
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That all depends on what his employers want, do they want to flounder around the bottom for a few more years or try to make it into the playoffs, where anything can happen?
His employers have given him 100% control to build this team. So assuming Burke has full control, what would be the price to finish 7-8th in the East and probably lose 1st round?

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01-08-2013, 09:55 AM
  #455
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I'v always been a huge Schneider supporter from day one... but if Gillis can't get anything that's going to make a serious impact "this" season or in the future then Schneider should be the one traded. He could get a ransom. If I were to trade Schneider to the Leafs I'd expect Gardiner, first rounder and either Lupul or Grabovski. Is the discrepancy between Luongos and Schneider skill on par with the value coming back? Schneiders value is at an all time high and could only get higher with a Vezina season and Luongos is at an all time low. Our window to win is now. Luongo got us to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. He's capable of getting us there.

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01-08-2013, 09:57 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
The Leafs are not going to become a contender after being a lottery team in one off season, let alone with one trade. It's a process, adding Luongo will help the Leafs take a giant leap towards becoming a contender.
True on all accounts, but if the price tag is 3-4 pieces including your best NHL ready prospect (Kadri) and your 1st...you damn sure better be closer to contending than the Leafs are. Otherwise, instead of a giant step forward...it's a giant step back.

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01-08-2013, 09:57 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Let's say i agree, what price should Burke pay just to achieve a playoff spot but not contend?

And if he lands in FLA...then so be it.
the LA kings achieved a playoff spot in the last 2 games of the season, what about Edmonton in 06', New Jersey last year, Tampa the year prior, teams can go on runs.

The importance is to get the chance to go on that run.

I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but I also wouldn't sell 'just getting in' short. Players see it, fans see it....get to the dance, maybe push the opening series to 6 or 7 and the fans get buoyed by hope. Maybe some FA's want to join (maybe they don't), but making the playoffs is an accomplishment, and is very beneficial to player and team development.

I don't know....

....don't think I should have to explain the importance of the playoffs to you, you know how valuable they are....you just like selling your team short.

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01-08-2013, 10:05 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
His employers have given him 100% control to build this team. So assuming Burke has full control, what would be the price to finish 7-8th in the East and probably lose 1st round?
He may have 100% control but I'm sure he has an idea of what his employers expect from him and the team. He had a 5 year plan and he's into year 4 with no real improvements thus far, how much longer will he keep his job, let alone have 100% control of the team? Not saying he needs to sell the farm to get Luongo, but he should be willing to pay a significant price to make an improvement that will pay immediate dividends and likely allow him to keep his job.

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01-08-2013, 10:05 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
True on all accounts, but if the price tag is 3-4 pieces including your best NHL ready prospect (Kadri) and your 1st...you damn sure better be closer to contending than the Leafs are. Otherwise, instead of a giant step forward...it's a giant step back.
As much as fans here will cry foul and go on very entertaining rants, I don't think a 1st will be involved if Kadri is. I still feel a package of 2nd/3rd line tweener (Bozak), a young developing NHL/AHL tweener (Kadri), Jr Age Prospect will be the price for Luongo.

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01-08-2013, 10:10 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
True on all accounts, but if the price tag is 3-4 pieces including your best NHL ready prospect (Kadri) and your 1st...you damn sure better be closer to contending than the Leafs are. Otherwise, instead of a giant step forward...it's a giant step back.

Welcome back LL.


Can you tell me, were the leafs close to contending when they sent two 1sts and a 2nd for Kessel? Yes he was young, but if the crux of the argument is to retain assets until you are closer to contending, the Kessel trade speaks directly against that hypothesis.

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01-08-2013, 10:11 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
the LA kings achieved a playoff spot in the last 2 games of the season, what about Edmonton in 06', New Jersey last year, Tampa the year prior, teams can go on runs.

The importance is to get the chance to go on that run.

I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but I also wouldn't sell 'just getting in' short. Players see it, fans see it....get to the dance, maybe push the opening series to 6 or 7 and the fans get buoyed by hope. Maybe some FA's want to join (maybe they don't), but making the playoffs is an accomplishment, and is very beneficial to player and team development.

I don't know....

....don't think I should have to explain the importance of the playoffs to you, you know how valuable they are....you just like selling your team short.
I'm not selling them short. I live in reality, goaltending is a problem, just not the ONLY problem.

As far as the Kings....LOL....the 2 teams couldn't be any different. It would have been a miracle if the Leafs made it last season....and a travesty if the Kings didn't.

I'll ask again, if you are Burke....with this exact team, (and no, you are not concerned about you job status), what would you pay for Luongo?

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01-08-2013, 10:14 AM
  #462
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I'v always been a huge Schneider supporter from day one... but if Gillis can't get anything that's going to make a serious impact "this" season or in the future then Schneider should be the one traded. He could get a ransom. If I were to trade Schneider to the Leafs I'd expect Gardiner, first rounder and either Lupul or Grabovski. Is the discrepancy between Luongos and Schneider skill on par with the value coming back? Schneiders value is at an all time high and could only get higher with a Vezina season and Luongos is at an all time low. Our window to win is now. Luongo got us to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. He's capable of getting us there.
Again the ransom for schneider, I dont think hfboards should dictate or give ideas of value to anyone, but I also feel like we on here overvalue our players even more. If you ask on the main boards his worth is not much more then lou, a unproven starter with limited games under his belt (Insert mention of halaks value).

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01-08-2013, 10:16 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Welcome back LL.


Can you tell me, were the leafs close to contending when they sent two 1sts and a 2nd for Kessel? Yes he was young, but if the crux of the argument is to retain assets until you are closer to contending, the Kessel trade speaks directly against that hypothesis.
I have said MANY...MANY times that Burke severely overestimated what he had here. That being said, the difference between trading youth for youth and youth for a 33 year old player are night and day. Kessel was 21 at the time, he will be able to grow with this team. When you deal youth for a 33 year old, it is because he is one of...if not the last piece you feel you need. Luongo, as good as he is, is not even close to the last piece. We won't be contending for at least 3 more years....with Luongo being 36-37 then, we'd have to start looking again.

Now, i am not adverse to bringing in Luongo, he would help us win. It just can't cost a bunch of our youth or our 1st.

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01-08-2013, 10:22 AM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Orca Smash View Post
Again the ransom for schneider, I dont think hfboards should dictate or give ideas of value to anyone, but I also feel like we on here overvalue our players even more. If you ask on the main boards his worth is not much more then lou, a unproven starter with limited games under his belt (Insert mention of halaks value).
He has shown better than Luongo the last two seasons and is younger, cheaper and without the lengthy risky contract. I'd say he has more value. But I do agree in GMs eyes it's different.

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01-08-2013, 10:23 AM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I'm not selling them short. I live in reality, goaltending is a problem, just not the ONLY problem.

As far as the Kings....LOL....the 2 teams couldn't be any different. It would have been a miracle if the Leafs made it last season....and a travesty if the Kings didn't.

I'll ask again, if you are Burke....with this exact team, (and no, you are not concerned about you job status), what would you pay for Luongo?
But why wouldn't he be concerned about his job status?

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01-08-2013, 10:27 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by Orca Smash View Post
Again the ransom for schneider, I dont think hfboards should dictate or give ideas of value to anyone, but I also feel like we on here overvalue our players even more. If you ask on the main boards his worth is not much more then lou, a unproven starter with limited games under his belt (Insert mention of halaks value).
You don't go to the main boards in search of intelligent answers.

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01-08-2013, 10:28 AM
  #467
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But why wouldn't he be concerned about his job status?
While i know everyone considers him a liar, he has stated countless times that he will not make any move to secure his job. He stated follwing last season that if he gets fired, so be it, he makes moves he feels are right for his team.

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01-08-2013, 10:29 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I have said MANY...MANY times that Burke severely overestimated what he had here. That being said, the difference between trading youth for youth and youth for a 33 year old player are night and day. Kessel was 21 at the time, he will be able to grow with this team. When you deal youth for a 33 year old, it is because he is one of...if not the last piece you feel you need. Luongo, as good as he is, is not even close to the last piece. We won't be contending for at least 3 more years....with Luongo being 36-37 then, we'd have to start looking again.

Now, i am not adverse to bringing in Luongo, he would help us win. It just can't cost a bunch of our youth or our 1st.



The youth vs. age argument is irrelevant. The main point is if Burke expected to contend. That's what's important. Kessel was 21, but in order to justify moving picks for a younger assets, Kessel would still have had to fit within a contention window, and he doesn't. Next year is his last year, and he'll be 25. So the thought process must have been that the leafs would contend four years from when they got him... do you think that's likely?



Age is irrelevant to Burke IMO. He's trying to speed up the process to be a playoff team. That was his motivation to get a player like Kessel. He thought the Leafs would be a playoff team within the 4 year span of PK's contract. So either he abandons that philosophy, or he stays the course. If he stays the course, Luongo makes absolute sense in TOR because he's another prime asset that again speeds up the process to have them become a playoff team. That's the goal.



If Burke severly overestimated what he had, why isn't he selling assets to rebuild? He should be trading Kessel et al for picks because why would PK stay if the intention is to rebuild?

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01-08-2013, 10:36 AM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
While i know everyone considers him a liar, he has stated countless times that he will not make any move to secure his job. He stated follwing last season that if he gets fired, so be it, he makes moves he feels are right for his team.
I think you underestimate his ego.

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01-08-2013, 10:41 AM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I have said MANY...MANY times that Burke severely overestimated what he had here. That being said, the difference between trading youth for youth and youth for a 33 year old player are night and day.
33 year old player and 33 year old goalie are two completely different things.

No reason to think you wouldn't get 5-6 more great years out of Luo.

5-6 years of playoffs and the experience that comes with that for your younger players.

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01-08-2013, 10:43 AM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I have said MANY...MANY times that Burke severely overestimated what he had here. That being said, the difference between trading youth for youth and youth for a 33 year old player are night and day. Kessel was 21 at the time, he will be able to grow with this team. When you deal youth for a 33 year old, it is because he is one of...if not the last piece you feel you need. Luongo, as good as he is, is not even close to the last piece. We won't be contending for at least 3 more years....with Luongo being 36-37 then, we'd have to start looking again.

Now, i am not adverse to bringing in Luongo, he would help us win. It just can't cost a bunch of our youth or our 1st.
The only way I see them being 'night and day', especially in this case is that the 33 year old is basically starting at the bottom and building the foundation of your team. Very few teams build their teams around wingers, and the ones that do, don't usually have success, that's why the Kessel deal will always remain a headscratcher for me.

We know what it's like to build a team from the net out, its why we've had success in Luongo's tenure here.

I think setting that foundation would have a gigantic impact on the whole organization in a positive way., 33 isn't 39, and you guys were willing to give Broudeur $800k less on the cap for a multi (I realize no assets would have been needed to get him...but the point remains).

The goaltending is a concern, and having the foundation of a top level one, helps the entire organization.

What I'd move for Luongo if I was toronto? It's a tough question, because I don't really value Toronto's pieces that highly, I'd easily move Kulemin, Kadri and a 1st for Luongo....but my Canucks side, says does that really make us better?

It's tough.

If you go back to the 1st thread on Lu when this all started, I had a Weiss ++ target, and that remains...sooo......Hopefully Florida bucks up, or if not, hopefully Vancouver rolls two top level goalies and wins a cup. I think Weiss alone is more significant than any piece offered from Toronto fans to date (unless Grabovski is on the table, but again his salary for this year, makes it a tough deal to make...if I'm Toronto I probably wouldn't move Grabo though....but you can see why Canuck fans would want him though, right).

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01-08-2013, 10:57 AM
  #472
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The youth vs. age argument is irrelevant. The main point is if Burke expected to contend. That's what's important. Kessel was 21, but in order to justify moving picks for a younger assets, Kessel would still have had to fit within a contention window, and he doesn't. Next year is his last year, and he'll be 25. So the thought process must have been that the leafs would contend four years from when they got him... do you think that's likely?



Age is irrelevant to Burke IMO. He's trying to speed up the process to be a playoff team. That was his motivation to get a player like Kessel. He thought the Leafs would be a playoff team within the 4 year span of PK's contract. So either he abandons that philosophy, or he stays the course. If he stays the course, Luongo makes absolute sense in TOR because he's another prime asset that again speeds up the process to have them become a playoff team. That's the goal.



If Burke severly overestimated what he had, why isn't he selling assets to rebuild? He should be trading Kessel et al for picks because why would PK stay if the intention is to rebuild?
Even IF Burke said he was going to rebuild, why would you trade a 24 year old ppg player? I agree, Burke expected to be better than we were...thus the overestimation.

The new CBA pretty much means that if Kessel wants to max out...here is where he can do that (longer free agent contracts allowed to your own). Also, if you don't think Burke has turned over assets....maybe you should compare rosters from 4 years ago to now. Your points make it sound like he has a pile of veterans....he doesn't. I never said Luongo didn't make sense, i did say it didn't make sense to pay a premium.

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01-08-2013, 11:01 AM
  #473
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I think you underestimate his ego.
Actually...i don't. In fact, i think it's that ego that will kill the deal. He thinks he can get Luongo for what he wants to give....probably won't, but that ego will not allow him to cave. If he truley was going to make a move to save his job...the deal would have been done at the draft.

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01-08-2013, 11:05 AM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Actually...i don't. In fact, i think it's that ego that will kill the deal. He thinks he can get Luongo for what he wants to give....probably won't, but that ego will not allow him to cave. If he truley was going to make a move to save his job...the deal would have been done at the draft.
You could be right. I guess we'll find out eventually.

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01-08-2013, 11:06 AM
  #475
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The only way I see them being 'night and day', especially in this case is that the 33 year old is basically starting at the bottom and building the foundation of your team. Very few teams build their teams around wingers, and the ones that do, don't usually have success, that's why the Kessel deal will always remain a headscratcher for me.

We know what it's like to build a team from the net out, its why we've had success in Luongo's tenure here.

I think setting that foundation would have a gigantic impact on the whole organization in a positive way., 33 isn't 39, and you guys were willing to give Broudeur $800k less on the cap for a multi (I realize no assets would have been needed to get him...but the point remains).

The goaltending is a concern, and having the foundation of a top level one, helps the entire organization.

What I'd move for Luongo if I was toronto? It's a tough question, because I don't really value Toronto's pieces that highly, I'd easily move Kulemin, Kadri and a 1st for Luongo....but my Canucks side, says does that really make us better?

It's tough.

If you go back to the 1st thread on Lu when this all started, I had a Weiss ++ target, and that remains...sooo......Hopefully Florida bucks up, or if not, hopefully Vancouver rolls two top level goalies and wins a cup. I think Weiss alone is more significant than any piece offered from Toronto fans to date (unless Grabovski is on the table, but again his salary for this year, makes it a tough deal to make...if I'm Toronto I probably wouldn't move Grabo though....but you can see why Canuck fans would want him though, right).
Not only does the point remain...it is the entire point. We would have had a stopgap that cost only money.

The Kessel deal is only a headscratcher because the Leafs were crappy enough to finish were they did. (again, poor evaluation by Burke) If those picks were 10-15...nobody says squat.

And age over youth is night and day. It's why Yzerman didn't even make an offer for Luongo but moved multiple picks for the younger Lindback. ( one could say their need for Luongo is even bigger than TO's)

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