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Old
01-07-2013, 02:20 PM
  #51
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01-07-2013, 02:27 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
Agreed I think if Ottawa cannot hold onto to Bishop going into the 2013/2014 season, and he plays well this season, then they have to move him at the deadline. Giving up a second is a lot so I would like to see something come back in return instead of Bishop walking in July.
ARRGH. I hate when I read "we gave up a second for him"!! We gave up a second to get a quality goaltender who wouldn't torpedo our chances at making the playoffs last year. Or do you forget the debacle that was Alex Auld starting against the Bruins?!?

He stunk it up so Murray had no choice but to acquire another tendy that could man the fort til Anderson returned. And Bishop did just that. Anything more we get from him now, imo, is gravy.

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01-07-2013, 03:11 PM
  #53
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ARRGH. I hate when I read "we gave up a second for him"!! We gave up a second to get a quality goaltender who wouldn't torpedo our chances at making the playoffs last year. Or do you forget the debacle that was Alex Auld starting against the Bruins?!?

He stunk it up so Murray had no choice but to acquire another tendy that could man the fort til Anderson returned. And Bishop did just that. Anything more we get from him now, imo, is gravy.
Very good points. Very few second round picks ever play in the NHL, so turning a second round pick into a player who actually gave us some quality time is a good trade. You don't want to constantly give away your second rounders, as they do occasionally pan out, but using one to get an NHL ready goalie at a time of need was a good trade. The goal now should be to trade Bishop for another NHL calibre player. Do that, and you have practiced excellent asset management. (Bad asset management, on the other hand, is trading picks for pending UFAs, getting rolled in the first round of the playoffs, then watching the player leave that summer. See Cullen, Matt and Commodore, Mike.)

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01-07-2013, 03:28 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Larionov View Post
Very few second round picks ever play in the NHL, so turning a second round pick into a player who actually gave us some quality time is a good trade.
Bryan Murray's 2nd rounders seem to be going well with Wiercioch, Lehner and Silfverberg. So even considering that, Bishop has about similar value to Wiercioch.

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01-07-2013, 03:33 PM
  #55
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01-07-2013, 06:00 PM
  #56
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Very good points. Very few second round picks ever play in the NHL, so turning a second round pick into a player who actually gave us some quality time is a good trade. You don't want to constantly give away your second rounders, as they do occasionally pan out, but using one to get an NHL ready goalie at a time of need was a good trade. The goal now should be to trade Bishop for another NHL calibre player. Do that, and you have practiced excellent asset management.
Exactly. Not sure how many times I'll have to bring this up, but the chances that we'd have developped a prospect as good as Bishop with that 2nd are quite low... And we saved 6 years of development ON TOP OF THAT (means a lot of time, headaches and money)

Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT.

If the Sens were severely lacking quality prospects, there'd be a place for debate but it isn't the case, we can afford to use picks to get ACTUAL players... The people who whined about Bishop and that 2nd rounder are just looking for problems where there is none... Bishop already paid dividends last year and well, there was a lockout this year but he still played well in the AHL too (no goalie only have perfect games). We still have him under control and we could even get more than a 2nd eventually.

VERY LOW RISK, HIGH POTENTIAL PAYOFF TRADE.

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01-07-2013, 06:19 PM
  #57
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Perhaps the Senators use the buyout option on Andy at the end of the season (assuming Bishop plays well in net as back up this year).
Andy is in the top half of the league and on a very reasonable contract, no way will he need to be bought out.

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01-07-2013, 06:24 PM
  #58
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May the best goalie start.
MacLean's sentiments exactly!!!

Whether Lehner deserves to be in Ottawa or not, it won't happen unless Murray can get a top 4 defenceman for a package consisting of a prospect and Bishop/Anderson.

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01-07-2013, 08:11 PM
  #59
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Exactly. Not sure how many times I'll have to bring this up, but the chances that we'd have developped a prospect as good as Bishop with that 2nd are quite low... And we saved 6 years of development ON TOP OF THAT (means a lot of time, headaches and money)

Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT.

If the Sens were severely lacking quality prospects, there'd be a place for debate but it isn't the case, we can afford to use picks to get ACTUAL players... The people who whined about Bishop and that 2nd rounder are just looking for problems where there is none... Bishop already paid dividends last year and well, there was a lockout this year but he still played well in the AHL too (no goalie only have perfect games). We still have him under control and we could even get more than a 2nd eventually.

VERY LOW RISK, HIGH POTENTIAL PAYOFF TRADE.
I'm aware that it was a low risk move, however, to lose him for nothing because he walks as a free agent is just poor asset management. A second round pick may not amount to much with team's that lack a solid scouting staff, but Ottawa is not one of those organizations. Looking at recent history Wiercioch, Lehner, Silfverberg, and Prince are all impressive prospects that IMO are more important than 1-2 months of goaltending. With how Binghamton was doing last year you could have just had Lehner finish out the year to keep Ottawa in the playoff race without bothering to acquire Bishop. Murray needs to get him resigned soon, fulfill his RFA requirements, or trade him at the deadline.


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01-07-2013, 10:43 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
I'm aware that it was a low risk move, however, to lose him for nothing because he walks as a free agent is just poor asset management. A second round pick may not amount to much with team's that lack a solid scouting staff, but Ottawa is not one of those organizations. Looking at recent history Wiercioch, Lehner, Silfverberg, and Prince are all impressive prospects that IMO are more important than 1-2 months of goaltending. With how Binghamton was doing last year you could have just had Lehner finish out the year to keep Ottawa in the playoff race without bothering to acquire Bishop. Murray needs to get him resigned soon, fulfill his RFA requirements, or trade him at the deadline.
I will not second guess a bunch of professionnals. I am not qualified enough for that. They did what they thought was best for the team, it is not only a 1 man decision. The GM talks with coaches, scouting staff and other executives daily. They couldn't risk the season and playoff hopes on Auld or a 20 years old goalie struggling in the AHL. Imagine if we put all our hopes on Lehner and he failed?

Another thing is we can't have millions of prospects, at some point we have a limited number of spots on the big team... It could be wise to fill ACTUAL holes in your NHL team rather than fill up your already stacked prospect pool... don't you think?

Having 3 quality goalies that can play in the NHL is not a bad thing. If you don't have 10-15 M$ tagged on them, what's the problem?


Finally, if Bishop was a 32 y/o goalie and pending UFA when we got him, I would have agreed that the price to get him was a bit heavy.... but it's NOT the case... at all

Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT.

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01-07-2013, 11:04 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
I will not second guess a bunch of professionnals. I am not qualified enough for that. They did what they thought was best for the team, it is not only a 1 man decision. The GM talks with coaches, scouting staff and other executives daily. They couldn't risk the season and playoff hopes on Auld or a 20 years old goalie struggling in the AHL. Imagine if we put all our hopes on Lehner and he failed?

Another thing is we can't have millions of prospects, at some point we have a limited number of spots on the big team... It could be wise to fill ACTUAL holes in your NHL team rather than fill up your already stacked prospect pool... don't you think?

Having 3 quality goalies that can play in the NHL is not a bad thing. If you don't have 10-15 M$ tagged on them, what's the problem?


Finally, if Bishop was a 32 y/o goalie and pending UFA when we got him, I would have agreed that the price to get him was a bit heavy.... but it's NOT the case... at all

Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT. Bishop was 25 y/o when we got him... A mid 2nd round pick for a young talented and developped goalie is NOT A LOT.
You're right you do not need an over abundance of prospects. What you do need to do when you trade those prospects though is get long-term pieces for your roster. Trading away valuable assets for bandage players is not a great approach. For the moment I am still happy with the Ben Bishop trade, but if he walks at the end of this year, then my opinion of that trade changes. Had the organization traded three prospects for Nash or Perry I would be fine with it providing they keep them long-term. Sorry if I am not satisfied with the team picking up someone to help them make the first round of the playoffs for a singular season.


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Old
01-07-2013, 11:24 PM
  #62
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I guess being Sens fans we just don't know what to do with 3 quality goalies!

Keep them all! If we are trading for help on D trade a forward prospect and picks. Anderson and Bishop can play in the NHL while Lehner gets the starts in Bingo. Once Anderson's contract is up (and we have one or two more developing goalies in Bingo) we go with Lehner and Bishop for a few seasons like Montreal did with Price and Halak, and trade one once one establishes themself as our number 1.

Lehner should be awesome for us, but goalies as slow to develop, the more patients the organization has in his development the better.

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01-08-2013, 09:26 AM
  #63
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You're right you do not need an over abundance of prospects. What you do need to do when you trade those prospects though is get long-term pieces for your roster. Trading awhile valuable assets for bandage players is not a great approach. For the moment I am still happy with the Ben Bishop trade, but if he walks at the end of this year, then my opinion of that trade changes. Had the organization traded three prospects for Nash or Perry I would be fine with it providing they keep them long-term. Sorry if I am not satisfied with the team picking up someone to help them make the first round of the playoffs for a singular season.
So now Bishop is a bandage player? No, he was one of the best goalie prospects not in the NHL when we got him. That's the perception problem you have... Maybe he was a "bandage player" last year but he never lost his value or the fact that he is a young talented and developped goalie... So not only we used him as a "band-aid" for our playoffs hopes, but we also got a great prospect in the process... There's no garantee a mid 2nd round pick would have reached that level of utility.

Sure we are good at drafting but they can't strike Silfverberg, Wiercioch and Lehner prospects each and every time.

If we fail to maintain/upgrade his value and let him go at the end of this season for nothing, that's where we will fail (well not really a fail because we already USED Bishop and will continue to do so this season), not in the trade itself...

That's like saying drafting Luc Bourdon was mistake, the guy died. Or saying the Hossa-Heatley was a big mistake because Heatley turned his back on us a few years later... Revisionnist history and hindsight... that's where you're positionning yourself already... It doesn't work like that in my books.


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01-08-2013, 09:33 AM
  #64
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I will not second guess a bunch of professionnals.



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01-08-2013, 10:01 AM
  #65
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So now Bishop is a bandage player? No, he was one of the best goalie prospects not in the NHL when we got him. That's the perception problem you have... Maybe he was a "bandage player" last year but he never lost his value or the fact that he is a young talented and developped goalie... So not only we used him as a "band-aid" for our playoffs hopes, but we also got a great prospect in the process... There's no garantee a mid 2nd round pick would have reached that level of utility.

Sure we are good at drafting but they can't strike Silfverberg, Wiercioch and Lehner prospects each and every time.

If we fail to maintain/upgrade his value and let him go at the end of this season for nothing, that's where we will fail (well not really a fail because we already USED Bishop and will continue to do so this season), not in the trade itself...

That's like saying drafting Luc Bourdon was mistake, the guy died. Or saying the Hossa-Heatley was a big mistake because Heatley turned his back on us a few years later... Revisionnist history and hindsight... that's where you're positionning yourself already... It doesn't work like that in my books.
Bishop becomes a bandage player if his sole purpose for the team becomes that stretch to end the 2011/2012 season. At the moment that is not the case and how this season plays out will determine my opinion on that status. You can't say that the Senators acquired a great prospect in the process if he walks at the end of the year because he was barely here for 1.5 seasons. Essentially the Senators would have gained a "rental" prospect. Anyways pretty clear nothing is getting accomplished here. You believe giving up second round picks for depth is a swell idea and I believe otherwise.

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01-08-2013, 10:33 AM
  #66
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Andersons new pads.
http://ingoalmag.com/news/brians-pad...ers-beastmode/

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01-08-2013, 11:02 AM
  #67
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Bishop becomes a bandage player if his sole purpose for the team becomes that stretch to end the 2011/2012 season. At the moment that is not the case and how this season plays out will determine my opinion on that status. You can't say that the Senators acquired a great prospect in the process if he walks at the end of the year because he was barely here for 1.5 seasons. Essentially the Senators would have gained a "rental" prospect. Anyways pretty clear nothing is getting accomplished here. You believe giving up second round picks for depth is a swell idea and I believe otherwise.
I don't believe "giving up second round picks for depth is a swell idea", my thinking is really not as linear...

I think sacrificing a 2nd is worth it for :

- A better chance to make the playoffs (lot of $$$ for the franchise) and not rely on Alex Auld or a 19 y/o goalie
- Getting a back-up for 2012-13 (as it was clear Auld was not going to get the job anymore)
- Getting a 25 y/o goalie prospect who has dominated the AHL before
- Fixing the goaltending pipeline for years to come
- Wake-up call for Lehner, now you have solid internal competition long-term

I could find several additional arguments

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01-08-2013, 11:16 AM
  #68
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I don't believe "giving up second round picks for depth is a swell idea", my thinking is really not as linear...

I think sacrificing a 2nd is worth it for :

- A better chance to make the playoffs (lot of $$$ for the franchise) and not rely on Alex Auld or a 19 y/o goalie
- Getting a back-up for 2012-13 (as it was clear Auld was not going to get the job anymore)
- Getting a 25 y/o goalie prospect who has dominated the AHL before
- Fixing the goaltending pipeline for years to come
- Wake-up call for Lehner, now you have solid internal competition long-term

I could find several additional arguments
Ok now is it not the job of a responsible General Manager to find a player that meets those requirements that the team can hang on to? This entire discussion is pointless until the Bishop situation is determined. If he walks I think it is unfortunate that Ottawa has no second round pick in a deep draft and if he stays then awesome. I have never once said I dislike the Bishop trade. I just will not look at it as fondly if he leaves the organization as a UFA in the summer.

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01-08-2013, 11:41 AM
  #69
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"@AJonSports: MacLean says Craig Anderson is the #1 goalie. Has confidence in Bishop and Lehner with how they've played in AHL. Says best guy will play."


He also says under 30 players at camp.

So what happens with Bishop if Lehner out plays him in camp.

My ideal situation would be for Andy/ Bishop at the start then one of them traded at deadline and bring up Lehner then.
I truly think that Maclean is being honest. I think Murray and Maclean will indeed go with Lehner as backup if he is better than Bishop in camp. Depending on if they think Bishop would get through waivers I could see them keeping all 3 goalies up for a half dozen games. Short, short leash. If either Lehner or Bishop have a bad game they get sent down.

I think in a 48 game season and with Lehner having totally proven himself in the AHL... Bishop is expendable. They would like to keep him but if it is not in the cards... They don't care that much. If Lehner beats out Bishop and they can't send him down. I could see them swapping him for a goalie they like in the AHL without a one way deal. Or for a defenceman package. Or for a 2nd or 3rd pick as last option. But lots can happen. Bishop could outplay Lehner. One of the 3 could get injured.

My point is that if Lehner is better then Bishop then Lehner is not getting sent back to the AHL.

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01-08-2013, 12:39 PM
  #70
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Word is that the Oilers are looking for help in goal. Now there's a team with an abundance of young talent. Vancouver will also be looking for an affordable backup if they move Luongo. The Senators should just be patient - by about the 25 game mark, there will be any number of teams looking for help in goal, and willing to pay a bit of a premium to get it.

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01-08-2013, 01:58 PM
  #71
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I'd go with an Anderson/Lehner duo for the next 2-3 years. If Lehner proves enough as a backup I'd make him the starter and trade Anderson.

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01-08-2013, 02:17 PM
  #72
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My guess is that management would like Lehner to play the whole yr in Bingo especially this yr with the team doing so well. The experience & maybe another Calder Cup run would certainly help not just Lehner's confidence but all of the prospects playing in Bingo.

I would think that Murray waits until the trade deadline to move Bishop unless he gets an offer he cannot refuse sooner. He can always find a backup at the sametime. I think his first priority is a good young defenceman & that might not be available until next yr when teams need to shed salary. In the meantime a stop gap measure in a FA like Foster makes the most sense & allows some of the better prospects in Bingo to be called up & get some NHL experience.

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01-08-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
My guess is that management would like Lehner to play the whole yr in Bingo especially this yr with the team doing so well. The experience & maybe another Calder Cup run would certainly help not just Lehner's confidence but all of the prospects playing in Bingo.

I would think that Murray waits until the trade deadline to move Bishop unless he gets an offer he cannot refuse sooner. He can always find a backup at the sametime. I think his first priority is a good young defenceman & that might not be available until next yr when teams need to shed salary. In the meantime a stop gap measure in a FA like Foster makes the most sense & allows some of the better prospects in Bingo to be called up & get some NHL experience.
Why would you guess that when the coach has already publicly said that whoever plays the best will be in Ottawa?

Lehner has nothing to prove in the AHL. He's ready to move on. Being the #1 in Binghamton does nothing to develop him. He's beyond the AHL level, and he needs to take the next step.

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01-08-2013, 03:58 PM
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Rals
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Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Why would you guess that when the coach has already publicly said that whoever plays the best will be in Ottawa?

Lehner has nothing to prove in the AHL. He's ready to move on. Being the #1 in Binghamton does nothing to develop him. He's beyond the AHL level, and he needs to take the next step.

I like where your heads at.

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01-08-2013, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Why would you guess that when the coach has already publicly said that whoever plays the best will be in Ottawa?

Lehner has nothing to prove in the AHL. He's ready to move on. Being the #1 in Binghamton does nothing to develop him. He's beyond the AHL level, and he needs to take the next step.
This is contrary to basic HF logic.

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