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I see no mention of the age of the players in question when they did this. I assume that your 4 decades of experience would tell you that the 3 years and 8 months of development time between when Couturier did what he did at 18/19 would matter at least a little bit in comparison to what Eller did at age 21/22. No AHL time. No year at the NHL level the year before. No season at the AHL level nor cup of tea at the NHL level before that.
While I understand the overall sentiment about the trade, I would argue that the comparison of Couturier and Eller only holds water if you live in a bubble where circumstance and NHL level training/experience doesn't matter in development.
My apologies, I did not include their ages. However, I did say they were simply comparable and that Couturier was better; neither of which implies anything negative about Couturier, I believe. You still can not state with any certainty that Couturier is significantly better than Eller.
You still can not state with any certainty that Couturier is significantly better than Eller.
As a player today, you are correct, they are comparable. As an asset in the context of a trade, given everything we know about both players at their respective stages of development, Couturier carries significantly more value.
Once again, a Habs fans fails to miss the point. For some reason you are all just assuming that players simply can't get better. Like its some kind of unheard of occurance. You do understand that he was 18/19 years old last year, correct? Where was plekanec when he was that young? Oh that's right, he didnt play more than 2 games in the nhl until he was 23. Wow. Could it be that he GASP! Wasn't as good as couturier is now when he was his age? Yes, that's exactly it.
To say that we'd be lucky if couturier ever becomes Tomas plekanec tells me that your judgement is based off some sort of fantasy world.
I haven't "missed" anything. Let me try again:
I have no problem with people who want to say that Couturier is far better than Plekanec at age 18/19. Why would I? However, that does not mean Couturier is better than Plekanec right now (as some have suggested), nor does it mean he WILL be better than Plekanec when he does hit the age Plekanec currently is at. It definitely doesn't mean Couturier would be a "bust" if he produced at the same pace as Plekanec currently does when Couturier gets to his age.
If you think Couturier becoming a top ranked shutdown center who consistently puts up 20+ goals and averages 50-70 points per season while playing the top lines of the opposition every single game means he is a bust, you need to learn what kind of value such players have in the NHL. Unless you somehow think Couturier will be able to be a Selke caliber forward while putting up 70+ points per season while battling the leagues best forwards game in and game out. Can you name a couple of guys like that for me please?
You also need to examine team needs and values better. For a team looking to win now and in the next couple of years, a guy like Plekanec is more valuable for his veteran leadership and the proven ability to be a top ranked defensive shut down center who produces 50-70 points. For a team looking to rebuild and get better over the next few years with a young core, Couturier is more valuable because of his potential to get as good as or better than Plekanec. For a team like the Flyers, who have a young core and a good group of veterans, Couturier is more valuable than Plekanec because the Flyers ARE very competitive as is and Plekanec is not the piece they need to make a serious Cup run. Different teams have different values and different needs.
Now, adding Subban, the exact type of defenceman the Flyers would love to take and groom and watch develop, along with Plekanec to take over Couturier's role for at least 3-4 more years while only losing Voracek in the same deal would be incredible for the Flyers. Subban and Plekanec are worth more than Voracek and Couturier to a team like the Flyers that have a good core and want to win the Cup now and stay competitive for years to come. The gain of Subban and Plekanec significantly mitigates the loss of Couturier's potential. I hope that is easy to understand.
As a player today, you are correct, they are comparable. As an asset in the context of a trade, given everything we know about both players at their respective stages of development, Couturier carries significantly more value.
Again, we agree. Context is important, though. See, I never said Eller is worth Couturier in a trade. I said that it is not worth Montreal trading Subban for Couturier because we have a player comparable to Couturier in Eller (I said we have our own version of Couturier, which is what seemed to confuse someone), but we do not have ANYONE comparable to Subban. The loss of Subban is overbalancing for us since we have someone who is slightly worse than Couturier and could develop as well as Couturier over time, but do not have someone comparable to Subban to enough of a degree that we can afford to lose Subban for Couturier.
Am I really being that much of a thorn in peoples' sides with such a statement?
That trade proposal is absolutely ridiculous... Anybody who claims Couturier has more value than Plekanec is completely out of his/her mind. Plekanec is not an average defensive forward, he's one of the best at D. Plus he still manages to get over 50 points (even twice over 65). Now people claim a rookie who got 28 points last year while playing good defense is better? Please...
Plus, Subban is a special player. He's wroth more than Voracek, even a lot more.
So I really don't think we can claim this trade proposal is even close to being fair.
I think even most Habs fans would agree that Couturier has more VALUE in a trade than Pleks has
If the Flyers really want Subban then Couturier would have to be a starting point in order to get something done IMO.
But I just don't see us moving PK anyways
In all honesty, I would rather Simmonds be the starting point if we absolutely have no other option than to deal Subban to the Flyers. Although, a 1-2 center punch of Galchenyuk and Couturier in 2 years could be just stunning...AAARRRGGGHHH.
You gotta admit, I guy like PK Subban and his swagger would fit perfectly in Philly.
I agree.
If Subban and The Habs cannot get a contract done and they decide to trade him, I would expect Philly to be one of the first teams in line to get him. Or they just offer sheet him.....
I have no problem with people who want to say that Couturier is far better than Plekanec at age 18/19. Why would I? However, that does not mean Couturier is better than Plekanec right now (as some have suggested), nor does it mean he WILL be better than Plekanec when he does hit the age Plekanec currently is at. It definitely doesn't mean Couturier would be a "bust" if he produced at the same pace as Plekanec currently does when Couturier gets to his age.
If you think Couturier becoming a top ranked shutdown center who consistently puts up 20+ goals and averages 50-70 points per season while playing the top lines of the opposition every single game means he is a bust, you need to learn what kind of value such players have in the NHL. Unless you somehow think Couturier will be able to be a Selke caliber forward while putting up 70+ points per season while battling the leagues best forwards game in and game out. Can you name a couple of guys like that for me please?
You also need to examine team needs and values better. For a team looking to win now and in the next couple of years, a guy like Plekanec is more valuable for his veteran leadership and the proven ability to be a top ranked defensive shut down center who produces 50-70 points. For a team looking to rebuild and get better over the next few years with a young core, Couturier is more valuable because of his potential to get as good as or better than Plekanec. For a team like the Flyers, who have a young core and a good group of veterans, Couturier is more valuable than Plekanec because the Flyers ARE very competitive as is and Plekanec is not the piece they need to make a serious Cup run. Different teams have different values and different needs.
Now, adding Subban, the exact type of defenceman the Flyers would love to take and groom and watch develop, along with Plekanec to take over Couturier's role for at least 3-4 more years while only losing Voracek in the same deal would be incredible for the Flyers. Subban and Plekanec are worth more than Voracek and Couturier to a team like the Flyers that have a good core and want to win the Cup now and stay competitive for years to come. The gain of Subban and Plekanec significantly mitigates the loss of Couturier's potential. I hope that is easy to understand.
if you honestly cannot see Couturiers legit potential to be an ELITE shut down center, then i don't know what to tell you. i like Plekanec, i really do. i think he's a good player and a guy i'd like to have on my team if i didn't already have Giroux, Schenn and Couturier. And never did i say Couturier would be a bust if he ended up as good as Plekanec. I think it would be disappointing. I firmly believe that Couturier will win a selke before his career is over. Sure, maybe his offensive numbers end up like Plekanec, but if you honestly are making a big deal and pretending its such a large margin between their defensive play, then you are delusional. Couturier is ALREADY the best defensive forward on our team and he's 20 years old.
Plekanec finished with a -15 last season on a team with one of the best goalies in the league and a GA total of 226.
Couturier finished with a +18 playing on the 3rd and 4th lines on a team with a struggling goaltender and a GA total of 232, while ALSO playing against every teams top lines.
but yeah, we'd be lucky if Couturier developed into the stonewall that Plekanec is...
Last edited by orange is better: 01-08-2013 at 01:05 PM.
I think couturier is a stud ... He is and will be better then Schenn ... Couturier is a complete player ! He will never be the 100 point guy but couturier will be a 70 to 80 point guy and he will be a stud in defence kind of like datsyuk
I think 70-80 is a bit of a stretch. Couts will always be known as an amazing defensive player, I see his ceiling as 55-60 points, but if he puts up 70 in a year than that would be incredible.
I'll get flamed for this big time, but I think Subban is a bit overhyped on here - I don't see him as a future Norris winner or anything. I'd rather have Couts but the Habs have no need for a centre.
That trade proposal is absolutely ridiculous... Anybody who claims Couturier has more value than Plekanec is completely out of his/her mind. Plekanec is not an average defensive forward, he's one of the best at D. Plus he still manages to get over 50 points (even twice over 65). Now people claim a rookie who got 28 points last year while playing good defense is better? Please...
Plus, Subban is a special player. He's wroth more than Voracek, even a lot more.
So I really don't think we can claim this trade proposal is even close to being fair.
If you really believe Plek holds more value in a trade than Couts, you are beyond delusional. I don't think you could get one half sane person to agree with you. I hope you are just joking.
Couts being on the PP (which he wasn't) has nothing to do with his defensively play, which is better than Plekanec's.
A typo, he meant PK. The Flyers were 17th in PK, while Couturier played on the second unit. Pleks played 1st unit in MTL, and even though they were a much worse team, they were 2nd in PK.
I can definitely see why that might make someone believe Pleks is being underrated. Not saying I would take Pleks over Couturier ; if I could have either for 10 years, I take Couturier . But if you are trying to win this/next year, there is no doubt Pleks is the better option. Both offensively and defensively.
People put waaay too much into that whole shut-down-Malkin thing. Usually people get laughed at about tiny sample size, but that does not seem to be happening here for some reason.
No thanks. - Coburn + Subban is completely counter productive for us. The idea is to get better defensively, not lose our best defenseman in order to add another defenseman.
so let me understand this. You dont want to trade Coburn because he is your best d-man? even if you are getting a much better one with the potential to be elite??
maybe you should take your Habs headphones off. Couturier has a better chance at winning a selke than Subban has at winning a Norris. Especially with guys like Weber, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Karlsson etc.
sorry, but i won't base my judgement off of who you've heard people say might win certain trophies in the future, but i'm willing to make a bet that Subban will never win a norris in his career.
Spoken like a true Flyers fan. Your overrating of Couturier is obscene. He's had ONE decent season; put up far fewer points than Subban while he's at it. Now I realize points aren't everything, but when a defenseman who's even regresses offensively and is very strong defensively, manages to out-point a defensive forward, there's something wrong. I'm willing to bet that Subban will win a Norris before, or even if, Couturier is even a finalist for the Selke.
EDIT: I'll make my avatar Couturier for a year if you can ever prove me wrong.
If you really believe Plek holds more value in a trade than Couts, you are beyond delusional. I don't think you could get one half sane person to agree with you. I hope you are just joking.
If I had a choice between the two right now, I'd take Pleks. Couturier's potential is only marginally higher than what Plekanec is doing RIGHT NOW and HAS DONE. That is assuming that he encounters no injury issues, regression, etc, etc.
Plekanec is a FAR better forward for the now and near future. Whether or not Couturier even manages to break 30 points is still up in the air.
It wouldn't be a "starting point" it would be him and him alone. Value is even... Neither team would do it though
Not a chance. Value isn't even. If Subban was traded, I would want more than Couts for him. A number 1/2 DMan still progressing is more valuable than a number 2/3center thats also progressing.
Couturier better then Pleks defensively ? wowwww ill agree he holds more value because of he's age and theres good chances he will become better in a few years but right now he's nowhere near Tomas offensively or defensively
And PK's value >>> Couts
U guys really watch hockey in Philly ? Geez this is embarrassing
If I had a choice between the two right now, I'd take Pleks. Couturier's potential is only marginally higher than what Plekanec is doing RIGHT NOW and HAS DONE. That is assuming that he encounters no injury issues, regression, etc, etc.
Plekanec is a FAR better forward for the now and near future. Whether or not Couturier even manages to break 30 points is still up in the air.
He scored 27 as a teenage rookie playing on the 4th line with goons and getting zero PP time. It's not a metaphysical certainty that my car is going to be in the garage when I leave here, but I wouldn't call it "up in the air" either. Simply by upgrading lines/ice time, his points are likely to take a significant jump.
If I had a choice between the two right now, I'd take Pleks. Couturier's potential is only marginally higher than what Plekanec is doing RIGHT NOW and HAS DONE. That is assuming that he encounters no injury issues, regression, etc, etc.
Plekanec is a FAR better forward for the now and near future. Whether or not Couturier even manages to break 30 points is still up in the air.
So when Gally puts up 40 points in his rookie season, we can all assume he'll top out as a 50 point player.
I think 70-80 is a bit of a stretch. Couts will always be known as an amazing defensive player, I see his ceiling as 55-60 points, but if he puts up 70 in a year than that would be incredible.
I'll get flamed for this big time, but I think Subban is a bit overhyped on here - I don't see him as a future Norris winner or anything. I'd rather have Couts but the Habs have no need for a centre.
You shouldn't get flamed for that opinion. Subban is a bit over hyped by we Montreal fans to a degree. There is also nothing wrong with someone preferring Couturier for their team over Subban. The problem is if they try to state that Couturier is better than Subban. Big difference.
Wow, just wow. If the Flyers offered Couts for Plekanec straight up some of you would say no? That is amazing. A #1 center for the next 10 years and you'd say no. Just wow.
ill agree he holds more value because of he's age and theres good chances he will become better in a few years but right now he's nowhere near Tomas offensively or defensively 
