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Luongo: Light at the end of the tunnel?

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01-08-2013, 01:45 PM
  #851
Bleach Clean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciccio1980 View Post
Can someone explain why everyone in the hockey world knows van is not going to get much for luongo except people here think he has Crosby value

Crosby costs Bozak + Kadri and a 1st? Sign me up yesterday.

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01-08-2013, 01:45 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Ciccio1980 View Post
Can someone explain why everyone in the hockey world knows van is not going to get much for luongo except people here think he has Crosby value
Can someone explain why people generalize from 1 fan and apply that view to an entire fan base?
Y2K notoriously overrates Luongo's value and expected return, just like some Leaf fans notoriously underrate Luongo (saying Van will have to buy him out, or offering something like Bozak + Franson).
There are extremists on both sides, try not to generalize that to the entire fan base.

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01-08-2013, 01:47 PM
  #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciccio1980 View Post
Can someone explain why everyone in the hockey world knows van is not going to get much for luongo except people here think he has Crosby value
Can someone explain to me why a team with no legitimate starting goalie thinks they have more bargaining power than the team with two elite goalies?

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01-08-2013, 01:48 PM
  #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Can someone explain why people generalize from 1 fan and apply that view to an entire fan base?
Y2K notoriously overrates Luongo's value and expected return, just like some Leaf fans notoriously underrate Luongo (saying Van will have to buy him out, or offering something like Bozak + Franson).
There are extremists on both sides, try not to generalize that to the entire fan base.
Not sure asking fair value for a top 5 goalie is overrating him, but okay...

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01-08-2013, 01:50 PM
  #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Can someone explain why people generalize from 1 fan and apply that view to an entire fan base?
Y2K notoriously overrates Luongo's value and expected return, just like some Leaf fans notoriously underrate Luongo (saying Van will have to buy him out, or offering something like Bozak + Franson).
There are extremists on both sides, try not to generalize that to the entire fan base.
good post. I agree. I am bias because I have seen Luongo day in and day out and know what he brings and what he can do for a team. Most Leaf fans are in bed sleeping when Vancouver plays and have mostly never followed Luongo steadily. I would say Luongo's value is somewhere in the middle of what is being thrown around. He's definitely no buyout but also probably not going to get a 1st ++ either.

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01-08-2013, 01:52 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Can someone explain to me why a team with no legitimate starting goalie thinks they have more bargaining power than the team with two elite goalies?
We know we don't have more power. That doesn't mean we will pay what you want either. You seem to forget that yes, you don't have to trade Luongo....Burke doesn't have to trade for him either.

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01-08-2013, 01:54 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Not sure asking fair value for a top 5 goalie is overrating him, but okay...
If you forget every other factor that applies to this scenario such as cap management, age, and pending UFAs on the team that can't be re-signed next season because of Luongo's cap hit, then you have a point.
Luongo is incredibly talented, but talent isn't the only factor for determining trade value.

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01-08-2013, 01:55 PM
  #858
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Gee, should I start a new thread to discuss if WSH is a reasonable darkhorse team? Sorry to interrupt the TOR/VAN *****fest.

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01-08-2013, 01:57 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by HFNHL PIT GM View Post
Gee, should I start a new thread to discuss if WSH is a reasonable darkhorse team? Sorry to interrupt the TOR/VAN *****fest.

They are, but it comes down to Holtby and how he does early on. He had a good playoffs. So there's time for them to see what he does.

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01-08-2013, 01:57 PM
  #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
We know we don't have more power. That doesn't mean we will pay what you want either. You seem to forget that yes, you don't have to trade Luongo....Burke doesn't have to trade for him either.
Except Gillis can keep Luongo and keep winning. If Burke doesn't address his goaltending situation then his team will keep losing. If that doesn't bother you (or Burke...) then that's perfectly fine. But if Burke wants his team to win, then Luongo is the best option available by far.

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01-08-2013, 02:00 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Not sure asking fair value for a top 5 goalie is overrating him, but okay...
Luongo is a top 5 goalie now? Since almost all fans say Schneider is better than Luongo that means that Vancouver has two top 5 goalies in the league on their roster?

Realistically Luongo is in the 5-10 range for goalies, probably closer to 10 at this point and will softly slide lower over the next few years.

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01-08-2013, 02:03 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Except Gillis can keep Luongo and keep winning. If Burke doesn't address his goaltending situation then his team will keep losing. If that doesn't bother you (or Burke...) then that's perfectly fine. But if Burke wants his team to win, then Luongo is the best option available by far.
Luongo is not the only goalie in the world.

Vancouver fans get so frustrated with the offers they see for him, but frankly most of the time it is their fans trying to foist Luongo to the Leafs. I have seen very few proposals where Leafs fans are trying to pull him here.

If there is one thing we can all agree upon it is that Burke is probably the most stubborn GM in the league and once he sets a value or price for a player in his head, he will not budge on it. It is extremely likely that whatever he has offered so far is as good as it will get, he doesn't get dragged into bidding war situations.

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01-08-2013, 02:03 PM
  #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Luongo is a top 5 goalie now? Since almost all fans say Schneider is better than Luongo that means that Vancouver has two top 5 goalies in the league on their roster?

Realistically Luongo is in the 5-10 range for goalies, probably closer to 10 at this point and will softly slide lower over the next few years.
Don't think you can realistically say Schneider is better than Luongo. Canuck fans say that they think Schneider COULD BE better than Luongo, but at this point in time he is not.

I can only see logical arguments for Lundqvist, Quick and Rinne as being better than Luongo. Some will mention other goalies who have consistently performed worse than Luongo, but based on production I don't see how Luongo is not a top 5 goalie.

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01-08-2013, 02:05 PM
  #864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Luongo is not the only goalie in the world.

Vancouver fans get so frustrated with the offers they see for him, but frankly most of the time it is their fans trying to foist Luongo to the Leafs. I have seen very few proposals where Leafs fans are trying to pull him here.

If there is one thing we can all agree upon it is that Burke is probably the most stubborn GM in the league and once he sets a value or price for a player in his head, he will not budge on it. It is extremely likely that whatever he has offered so far is as good as it will get, he doesn't get dragged into bidding war situations.
Luongo is probably the only AVAILABLE goalie in the world who can help address the Leafs goaltending needs. To be honest, I would rather not trade Luongo to Toronto as the Leafs really don't have players that I think would help us. I would much rather trade him to Florida.

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01-08-2013, 02:07 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
They are, but it comes down to Holtby and how he does early on. He had a good playoffs. So there's time for them to see what he does.
My bad for trying to change the scope of discussion. I guess everyone can keep harping on the Leafs.

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01-08-2013, 02:09 PM
  #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Don't think you can realistically say Schneider is better than Luongo. Canuck fans say that they think Schneider COULD BE better than Luongo, but at this point in time he is not.

I can only see logical arguments for Lundqvist, Quick and Rinne as being better than Luongo. Some will mention other goalies who have consistently performed worse than Luongo, but based on production I don't see how Luongo is not a top 5 goalie.
Goalies I would rather have on my team than Luongo (in no particular order, and ignoring availability)

Rinne
Quick
Lundqvist
Miller
Price
Ward
Schneider
Halak (possibly)
Hiller (if not for concussions)

That's just my personal take if I was picking goalies today and looking out for my franchise today and going forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Luongo is probably the only AVAILABLE goalie in the world who can help address the Leafs goaltending needs. To be honest, I would rather not trade Luongo to Toronto as the Leafs really don't have players that I think would help us. I would much rather trade him to Florida.
Toronto says go for it, make a deal with Florida.

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01-08-2013, 02:10 PM
  #867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Luongo is probably the only AVAILABLE goalie in the world who can help address the Leafs goaltending needs. To be honest, I would rather not trade Luongo to Toronto as the Leafs really don't have players that I think would help us. I would much rather trade him to Florida.
Is it because there are fewer Florida fans declining your horrible demands for a goalie that is on the outs?


-Great goalie.
-Not in a position to make a world breaker deal.
-If that is what Gillis wants.
-Walk.

Every team should have that mentality.

If this were for a number 1 center. It's a different story. IMO

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01-08-2013, 02:11 PM
  #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Goalies I would rather have on my team than Luongo (in no particular order, and ignoring availability)

Rinne
Quick
Lundqvist
Miller
Price
Ward
Halak (possibly)
Hiller (if not for concussions)

That's just my personal take if I was picking goalies today and looking out for my franchise today and going forward.



Toronto says go for it, make a deal with Florida.
See, you can say you would prefer those goalies, but based on what they have done and what they can do, Luongo is better than Ryan Miller, Carey Price, Cam Ward, Jaroslav Halak and Jonas Hiller. So I really don't understand why you would rather have those goalies.

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01-08-2013, 02:12 PM
  #869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
Is it because there are fewer Florida fans declining your horrible demands for a goalie that is on the outs?


-Great goalie.
-Not in a position to make a world breaker deal.
-If that is what Gillis wants.
-Walk.

Every team should have that mentality.

If this were for a number 1 center. It's a different story. IMO
The Canucks aren't in a position where we HAVE to move Luongo, keep that in mind. Our team has been the most dominant team over the past two seasons in the league, and our goaltending has played a HUGE role in that.

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01-08-2013, 02:14 PM
  #870
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Can someone explain to me why a team with no legitimate starting goalie thinks they have more bargaining power than the team with two elite goalies?
Schneider has looked damn good, but he's only played 68 regular season games and 8 playoff games. How can you consider him to be an elite goalie already?

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01-08-2013, 02:18 PM
  #871
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
See, you can say you would prefer those goalies, but based on what they have done and what they can do, Luongo is better than Ryan Miller, Carey Price, Cam Ward, Jaroslav Halak and Jonas Hiller. So I really don't understand why you would rather have those goalies.
Well for this season I wouldn't want Luongo because he is a notoriously slow starter and I think he will have some serious rust coming off the long layoff.

For future seasons I expect Luongo to be going into a slow decline, which seems fair given his age, while the other guys will continue to grow and surpass him.

Burke has said he won't make a move for a one off shot at the playoffs, he wants a legitimate decade long contender (much like the one he built for you there in Vancouver)

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01-08-2013, 02:19 PM
  #872
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Can someone explain to me why a team with no legitimate starting goalie thinks they have more bargaining power than the team with two elite goalies?

Because:

A) Vancouver needs to trade him and there are virtually no other potential trade partners.

B) Vancouver is going to have cap problems.

C) His contract length decreases his value.

D) His cap penalty when he retires (both teams get hit with penalties) has a negative impact on his value.

E) The cap is going down next year and there is no guarantee that it will rise the following year so his cap hit will be larger (as a percentage of a team's overall cap) than it is now and this decreases his value.

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01-08-2013, 02:19 PM
  #873
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I'm not ignoring the statistical differences between the two goaltenders, simply taking them into context of the relative roles that each has played in the ~70 games of their respective careers.

Asking for Gardiner+Kadri is an outrageous demand from Toronto. The last thing we need to do is part with our standout defenceman for an unproven goaltender with a big contract. It just reeks of Vesa Toskala 2.0.
Gardiner is as proven as Schneider, both having played a comparable number of games. Either you apply the "unproven" argument to both or neither, but you cannot only claim the beneficial side in Toronto's favor. Toskala is a poorly drawn parallel. His numbers are nowhere close to Schneider, despite having played on a fairly strong San Jose squad.

2.35 .908 - Toskala/San Jose
1.96 .937 - Schneider/Vancouver

Both played 38 and 33 games respectively. Only one season was Toskala ever considered good, posting an impressive 2.06/.930 in 28 games. This was back in 2004.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
2010/11 -

SV Percentage .929 vs .921

Given one had a much better D in front of them, I wouldn't suggest it is a notable gap in stats. Gap... sure, a small one.

I'm going to pass on last year, given Reimer's injury early on, but his SV percentage was .912 before going down due to injury.

AHL SV percentage... .919 Schneider Reimer .920

I do agree that Schneider looks better, better style, and probably will be better... but notable gap in stats.. the numbers I look at down bear that out.
I'd argue .929 is a big difference over .921 as far as hockey statistics are concerned. Common theory, which I admit is pure conjecture, was had either Schneider or Luongo been on the Leaf's roster last season, they would have made the playoffs. Both their stats support they, especially when you factor in Vancouver was not playing particularly well at all during the final stretch.

Nonetheless, I suppose there was slight undue emphasis put on those numbers. As Vankiller indicated, Reimer had the benefits you accuse Schneider of having at the NHL level; a good defense. Our AHL team is underwhelming at best.

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01-08-2013, 02:20 PM
  #874
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I'm bored.

Vancouver:
Weiss
Upshall

Florida:
Luongo
Schroeder
Raymond or 2nd

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01-08-2013, 02:20 PM
  #875
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Except Gillis can keep Luongo and keep winning. If Burke doesn't address his goaltending situation then his team will keep losing. If that doesn't bother you (or Burke...) then that's perfectly fine. But if Burke wants his team to win, then Luongo is the best option available by far.
Gillis can keep winning? Winning what exactly? I forgot how many young men grow up dreaming of holding the President's Trophy high above their head.

That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy being in the playoffs every year instead of being eliminated (like my Leafs)... but I thought Vancouver was supposed to be a contender?

The series vs LA should have showed you that the Canucks as currently constructed can't win an overly physical series. Having 5M in your backup goalie (or 4M if Luongo starts and Schnieder sits) only prevents Vancouver from adding to a team that's watching the Sedin's window slowly close.

Vancouver fans can claim they hold all the cards all they want. To sit by and add nothing of substance to a team that got trounced by the Kings last year will only lead to another early playoff exit.

The clock is ticking on the Sedin's (they have 4 years left tops, probably only 2 at their current level of play, they turn 33 in Sept) so feel free to sit back and hope someone eventually ponies up the package you're hoping for before their window closes.

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