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Luongo Talk: The Final Countdown...?

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01-08-2013, 12:29 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
If that were true, would he not have traded for Luongo at the draft? Would he not be trading for vets instead of younger players? Just because you don't trade for only picks doesn't mean you are in win now. He is trying to assemble a young team, that is all.


Every GM _tries_ to assemble a young team. But it's not a mandate. It's not to the exclusion of older players.



Why Burke didn't deal for Luongo at the draft: Bargaining position, he could afford to wait. And he did make two offers. Both low because they could afford to keep them low without the pressure of the season looming. Now, I suspect the offers are more in line with the actual value. It would make sense.



If he's not trying to win now, what are Kessel and Phaneuf even doing there?

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01-08-2013, 12:36 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Every GM _tries_ to assemble a young team. But it's not a mandate. It's not to the exclusion of older players.



Why Burke didn't deal for Luongo at the draft: Bargaining position, he could afford to wait. And he did make two offers. Both low because they could afford to keep them low without the pressure of the season looming. Now, I suspect the offers are more in line with the actual value. It would make sense.



If he's not trying to win now, what are Kessel and Phaneuf even doing there?
I don't get what you are asking....i have said it's not a rebuild. Of course he is trying to win games...the fact that he is doing it with young guys means what to you?

Listening to Tim and Sid on the Fan 590 right now. They are speaking to a reporter in FLA who was part of the Luongo interview. His opinion...and it's only an opinion, Luongo wants FLA but FLA is not interested. He also said he has not heard anything about any other team being interested right now. In his opinion, he feels Luongo is good to handle the media pressure in TO and he thinks Luongo is on TO starting the season.


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01-08-2013, 12:37 PM
  #503
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I don't care what anyone say about his contract, he's a game changer and instantly makes any team better when playing in their net.
If that's true, we should be trading Schneider, not Luongo.

 
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01-08-2013, 12:37 PM
  #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Every GM _tries_ to assemble a young team. But it's not a mandate. It's not to the exclusion of older players.



Why Burke didn't deal for Luongo at the draft: Bargaining position, he could afford to wait. And he did make two offers. Both low because they could afford to keep them low without the pressure of the season looming. Now, I suspect the offers are more in line with the actual value. It would make sense.



If he's not trying to win now, what are Kessel and Phaneuf even doing there?
Another question is how are you going to keep those guys if you can't get over the hump. These players today will get their money wherever they play. Most want to win. Luongo would go a long way in selling your plan to those players you want to keep and those UFA players in the future who might not have given you a second look.

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01-08-2013, 12:37 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
If that were true, would he not have traded for Luongo at the draft? Would he not be trading for vets instead of younger players? Just because you don't trade for only picks doesn't mean you are in win now. He is trying to assemble a young team, that is all.
Same reason it took the NHL and PA so long to make a deal, deadlines create pressure. Burke knows that Gillis wasn't in a must trade situation then. He isn't now but it's much closer than it was in the summer. Oh and the lack of certainty over the what the future CBA will look like may have played a role too.

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01-08-2013, 12:39 PM
  #506
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The more I think about it, the less I want Wiess and the more I want a package based around their 1st round pick. I don't want an impending UFA who will be looking at a $4-5m salary next season who will end up being a 3rd line center. Give me Drew Shore, Petrovic, Goc and their 1st round pick for Luongo, Raymond and a 3rd and I'll be happy.

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01-08-2013, 12:40 PM
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I don't get what you are asking....i have said it's not a rebuild. Of course he is trying to win games...the fact that he is doing it with young guys means what to you?



"he's trying to win games" = bliss to eyes. That's all I wanted to get across. And in that vain, Luongo is a prime target.



He's not doing it with young guys. He's _trying_ to do it with young guys. And this means he's like every other GM trying to optimally build a team with young high end talent. But when the option isn't always there, you have to make a choice. So if the choice is young mediocre talent between the pipes and older great talent, the choice is easy. As such, the compensation being young is academic.

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01-08-2013, 12:41 PM
  #508
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If that's true, we should be trading Schneider, not Luongo.
It is true. I also believe it's true about Schneider as well. We are spoiled in Vancouver because, imo, we have 2 legitimate allstar goalies. Schneider just happens to be younger and cheaper. I'm not at all shocked that Vancouver has decided to go in the direction they have. It doesn't mean Luongo has lost his game or that Schneider is better or worse. Schneider is younger and cheaper and a fresh direction is what the team wants. Pretty obvious if you ask me.

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01-08-2013, 12:42 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Another question is how are you going to keep those guys if you can't get over the hump. These players today will get their money wherever they play. Most want to win. Luongo would go a long way in selling your plan to those players you want to keep and those UFA players in the future who might not have given you a second look.



Of course. LL assumes that money will keep them... they can get that anywhere! So why stay in a poor situation and get paid, while you can get paid and actually win?


So far, the UFAs Burke has been able to attract he has had to pay pretty lucrative deals to. Why? Could it have something to do with TOR being a weak team? Nah. So why assume pending UFAs won't leave for the same reasons?

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01-08-2013, 12:43 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
The more I think about it, the less I want Wiess and the more I want a package based around their 1st round pick. I don't want an impending UFA who will be looking at a $4-5m salary next season who will end up being a 3rd line center. Give me Drew Shore, Petrovic, Goc and their 1st round pick for Luongo, Raymond and a 3rd and I'll be happy.
If we are in a win-now mode Weiss is a much better return as long as there is a + or 2 coming back our way or FLA and VAN do a sign and trade for Weiss. Unless you are planning to flip the futures we get for something at the draft it won't help us the way Weiss would.

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01-08-2013, 12:46 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
If we are in a win-now mode Weiss is a much better return as long as there is a + or 2 coming back our way or FLA and VAN do a sign and trade for Weiss. Unless you are planning to flip the futures we get for something at the draft it won't help us the way Weiss would.
Agreed.

There's nothing that guarantees Weiss would be relegated to 3rd line duty. Sure we could spread out the offense, but I think having a second line of Booth-Weiss-Kesler would be amazing.

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01-08-2013, 12:48 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
If we are in a win-now mode Weiss is a much better return as long as there is a + or 2 coming back our way or FLA and VAN do a sign and trade for Weiss. Unless you are planning to flip the futures we get for something at the draft it won't help us the way Weiss would.
I want their 1st, I don't see that team doing anything next season, even with Luongo. I don't think Weiss is a long term solution for this team unless they plan on moving Kesler to the wing, which I don't see happening. And I'm less concerned about the short term hole Weiss could plug than I am about the longer term implications. Now if it were Weiss and their 1st, sure sign me up.

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01-08-2013, 12:49 PM
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I want their 1st, I don't see that team doing anything next season, even with Luongo. I don't think Weiss is a long term solution for this team unless they plan on moving Kesler to the wing, which I don't see happening. And I'm less concerned about the short term hole Weiss could plug than I am about the longer term implications. Now if it were Weiss and their 1st, sure sign me up.
The Panthers won their division without Luongo. With Luongo they do a lot better. Their 1st is likely worth less than ours if we go ahead with your futures deal as I don't like our current lineup with all the holes we have.

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01-08-2013, 12:52 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
The Panthers won their division without Luongo. With Luongo they do a lot better. Their 1st is likely worth less than ours if we go ahead with your futures deal as I don't like our current lineup with all the holes we have.
They won a division that apparently no team wanted to win last year.

I see the Canes, Caps and Bolts all giving them more fits this time around.

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01-08-2013, 12:52 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Agreed.

There's nothing that guarantees Weiss would be relegated to 3rd line duty. Sure we could spread out the offense, but I think having a second line of Booth-Weiss-Kesler would be amazing.
This I totally agree with, Booth and Weiss played together back in Florida as well.

Hansen/Higgins on the wings on the 3rd line with Lappy/Malholtra/Arnott(potential signing) would be a decent 3rd line as well, so the depth would be there IMO.

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01-08-2013, 12:54 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
The Panthers won their division without Luongo. With Luongo they do a lot better. Their 1st is likely worth less than ours if we go ahead with your futures deal as I don't like our current lineup with all the holes we have.


Look at their lineup, look at the division then get back to me.

Hell if you have to, pick up Weiss at the deadline when the Panthers are out of a playoff spot and looking to get something for him.

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01-08-2013, 12:55 PM
  #517
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I think I agree with Canucker.

I haven't watched Weiss much at all but when you read the scouting reports it hardly sounds like "bigger, younger, etc" stuff Gillis has been on about. Struggles in physical contests? No thanks. Nevermind when we already have five $4m+ forwards..

I think if the Canucks could get him and sign him for comfortably under $5m then move another player for value it would be worth considering.. but I just can't see how it makes sense for the Panthers, their depth at center without Weiss would be colossally worse than their goaltender is without Luongo for this season.. and after the season there's no sense in the Canucks trading for the guy.

For me the amnesty buy outs have me wondering if the Canucks added Jordan Schroeder and took off (and bought out) enough salary that the Panthers could re-sign Weiss and get Luongo, if we couldn't get Nick Bjugstad back on the table.

I just wouldn't make that deal if I was Tallon but it's worth asking about.

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01-08-2013, 12:58 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
The Panthers won their division without Luongo. With Luongo they do a lot better. Their 1st is likely worth less than ours if we go ahead with your futures deal as I don't like our current lineup with all the holes we have.
The Canes will finish ahead of Florida for sure. Won't even be close.

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01-08-2013, 01:08 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
The more I think about it, the less I want Wiess and the more I want a package based around their 1st round pick. I don't want an impending UFA who will be looking at a $4-5m salary next season who will end up being a 3rd line center. Give me Drew Shore, Petrovic, Goc and their 1st round pick for Luongo, Raymond and a 3rd and I'll be happy.
Florida would have to be interested in Luongo to begin with..They have Theodore, Clemmensen and Markstrom

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01-08-2013, 01:09 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
I think I agree with Canucker.

I haven't watched Weiss much at all but when you read the scouting reports it hardly sounds like "bigger, younger, etc" stuff Gillis has been on about. Struggles in physical contests? No thanks. Nevermind when we already have five $4m+ forwards..

I think if the Canucks could get him and sign him for comfortably under $5m then move another player for value it would be worth considering.. but I just can't see how it makes sense for the Panthers, their depth at center without Weiss would be colossally worse than their goaltender is without Luongo for this season.. and after the season there's no sense in the Canucks trading for the guy.

For me the amnesty buy outs have me wondering if the Canucks added Jordan Schroeder and took off (and bought out) enough salary that the Panthers could re-sign Weiss and get Luongo, if we couldn't get Nick Bjugstad back on the table.

I just wouldn't make that deal if I was Tallon but it's worth asking about.
It isn't a money issue that's preventing them from re-signing Weiss. Apparently he just wants to move on (according to MacLean).

Right now I see our top 6 with Weiss as being:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Weiss-Kesler

now, the Sedins contracts are up at the end of next season. If their production continues to regress and/or if they want a raise on what they're making right now then I will strongly suggest we move on. At that point our top 6 could be:

???-Kesler-Burrows
Booth-Weiss-?????

and we will have $12.2M of cap space to go out and bring in some high quality wingers. Bringing in Weiss gives us a lot of flexibility, and makes us a much more dangerous team right now.

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01-08-2013, 01:11 PM
  #521
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Florida would have to be interested in Luongo to begin with..
Where have you heard that they aren't? The main boards?

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01-08-2013, 01:12 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
It isn't a money issue that's preventing them from re-signing Weiss. Apparently he just wants to move on (according to MacLean).

Right now I see our top 6 with Weiss as being:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Weiss-Kesler

now, the Sedins contracts are up at the end of next season. If their production continues to regress and/or if they want a raise on what they're making right now then I will strongly suggest we move on. At that point our top 6 could be:

???-Kesler-Burrows
Booth-Weiss-?????


and we will have $12.2M of cap space to go out and bring in some high quality wingers. Bringing in Weiss gives us a lot of flexibility, and makes us a much more dangerous team right now.
And you ***** about our scoring now...

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01-08-2013, 01:13 PM
  #523
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
"he's trying to win games" = bliss to eyes. That's all I wanted to get across. And in that vain, Luongo is a prime target.



He's not doing it with young guys. He's _trying_ to do it with young guys. And this means he's like every other GM trying to optimally build a team with young high end talent. But when the option isn't always there, you have to make a choice. So if the choice is young mediocre talent between the pipes and older great talent, the choice is easy. As such, the compensation being young is academic.
LOL, glad i could make you happy. I have stated he isn't rebuilding like 1000 times. Can you tell me 1 GM who isn't trying to win games. I have also said Luongo would be perfect here....AT THE RIGHT PRICE. I have no problem with an older goalie, but to say the compensation being young is acedemic? Maybe if your team hasn't drafted were the Leafs have lately maybe, but coughing up multiple young players/picks to fill one of many holes is risky.

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01-08-2013, 01:17 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
LOL, glad i could make you happy. I have stated he isn't rebuilding like 1000 times. Can you tell me 1 GM who isn't trying to win games. I have also said Luongo would be perfect here....AT THE RIGHT PRICE. I have no problem with an older goalie, but to say the compensation being young is acedemic? Maybe if your team hasn't drafted were the Leafs have lately maybe, but coughing up multiple young players/picks to fill one of many holes is risky.


If it was too risky, why did Burke do it for Kessel? Burke doesn't value picks like you do LL. You have a fans perspective of your team. I've seen Burke operate on both sides of the fence. He gives up 2nd rounders like they're candy. And his opinion on waiting on the 1sts can be seen in the Kessel deal.



He's not a builder. He never was.

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01-08-2013, 01:17 PM
  #525
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Of course. LL assumes that money will keep them... they can get that anywhere! So why stay in a poor situation and get paid, while you can get paid and actually win?


So far, the UFAs Burke has been able to attract he has had to pay pretty lucrative deals to. Why? Could it have something to do with TOR being a weak team? Nah. So why assume pending UFAs won't leave for the same reasons?
The 2 time Prez trophy winners couldn't bring Schultz or Doan....sometimes nothing can be done.

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