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Luongo: Light at the end of the tunnel?

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01-08-2013, 01:21 PM
  #876
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by HFNHL PIT GM View Post
My bad for trying to change the scope of discussion. I guess everyone can keep harping on the Leafs.


Don't feel bad. With the mountain of information in other threads about just such a topic, and without any recent updates on WSH like the Leafs have had for them, I'm not sure how deep a discussion you would get about WSH. What we know is what we know of them at this point. While what we know of TOR seems to change with the passing news reports. Be it from the recapture rule, to Shannon, to Carlyle's comments, to Luongo interviews...

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01-08-2013, 01:22 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
I'm bored.

Vancouver:
Weiss
Upshall

Florida:
Luongo
Schroeder
Raymond or 2nd
As a Panthers fan, we then have no 1st line center.

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01-08-2013, 01:22 PM
  #878
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See, you can say you would prefer those goalies, but based on what they have done and what they can do, Luongo is better than Ryan Miller, Carey Price, Cam Ward, Jaroslav Halak and Jonas Hiller. So I really don't understand why you would rather have those goalies.
Alot of smart individuals would prefer those goalies simply becuase they are not signed to a 10 year deal.

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01-08-2013, 01:23 PM
  #879
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Don't think you can realistically say Schneider is better than Luongo. Canuck fans say that they think Schneider COULD BE better than Luongo, but at this point in time he is not.

I can only see logical arguments for Lundqvist, Quick and Rinne as being better than Luongo. Some will mention other goalies who have consistently performed worse than Luongo, but based on production I don't see how Luongo is not a top 5 goalie.
Statistically you are probably right.
I can't help recognizing the apparent reality though that Lou is trending downward now at this stage of his career.
The young goalies coming into the league are much more athletic ( Quick, Schneider ) than Lou and are appearing to pass him by with their overall game.
Lou still has some good years left no doubt but I think we have seen the best of him already.

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01-08-2013, 01:25 PM
  #880
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As a Panthers fan, we then have no 1st line center.

I think the deal would be contingent on Weiss definitely not re-signing with Florida.

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01-08-2013, 01:26 PM
  #881
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Well for this season I wouldn't want Luongo because he is a notoriously slow starter

That is a big concern this season because it is going to be a sprint.

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01-08-2013, 01:34 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Except Gillis can keep Luongo and keep winning. If Burke doesn't address his goaltending situation then his team will keep losing. If that doesn't bother you (or Burke...) then that's perfectly fine. But if Burke wants his team to win, then Luongo is the best option available by far.

Keep winning? Vancouver will not be the team of the past. Aside from the twins, their roster isn't spectacular with Kesler out. If they ride both goalies all season it will hurt them more then getting value from a trade. Not saying it comes from Toronto, but Vancouver has big questions past the 1st line.

Save this post if you want, but if they don't move Lu for value they will not be a winning team.

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01-08-2013, 01:34 PM
  #883
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That is a big concern this season because it is going to be a sprint.
To continue this analogy, at least with Luongo you have someone who can run the whole race.

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01-08-2013, 01:37 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Because:

A) Vancouver needs to trade him and there are virtually no other potential trade partners.

B) Vancouver is going to have cap problems.

C) His contract length decreases his value.

D) His cap penalty when he retires (both teams get hit with penalties) has a negative impact on his value.

E) The cap is going down next year and there is no guarantee that it will rise the following year so his cap hit will be larger (as a percentage of a team's overall cap) than it is now and this decreases his value.
A) We have been over this. No we do not. I know this typical Leaf rhetoric; "You must trade player x for cap/salary/oversaturation/lulz" but like practically every team who endure this tactic. You are wrong.

1A) Edmonton and Chicago both kicks the tires prior to the lockout debacle. There is nothing to suggest Gillis is not in talks with both again.

B) Once again, no we will not. If we retained Luongo, yes cap crunching would be difficult but certainly feasible. Contrary to popular belief, Vancouver fans have a greater idea of their roster than fans of other teams. Shocking, I know.

C) Aye, but only from demands of Gardiner, not to the extent of Bozak+2nd no matter how often it's perpetuated.

D) Only to fans with a belief GMs are concerned over a minuscule cap hit nearly a decade from now. Many GMs have spent more on buyouts or poor signings. Elite goaltending supersedes a possible slap on the wrist.

E) A decrease to $64.3M does not have the negative effects toward most teams as you are attempting to illustrate. Luongo can be retained and not been an issue. Alternatively, trading Schneider remains an option.

We could also keep both and gamble they perform up to or exceeding expectations, increasing their value in the off season.

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01-08-2013, 01:41 PM
  #885
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If you step away from being so emotionally involved in the process you can see just how many people are saying he is going to Tarana.

Millard
Maclean
Mendes
Kuzma
Murph


I doubt all of them could be wrong.
What has Muroh said?

You forgot John Shannon so...

Shannon
Millard
Maclean
Mendes

Kuzma
Murph

Bolded work for the same company: Sportsnet

Maybe they are trying to attract Tor attention to Sportsnet?

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01-08-2013, 01:43 PM
  #886
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Gillis can keep winning? Winning what exactly? I forgot how many young men grow up dreaming of holding the President's Trophy high above their head.

That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy being in the playoffs every year instead of being eliminated (like my Leafs)... but I thought Vancouver was supposed to be a contender?

The series vs LA should have showed you that the Canucks as currently constructed can't win an overly physical series. Having 5M in your backup goalie (or 4M if Luongo starts and Schnieder sits) only prevents Vancouver from adding to a team that's watching the Sedin's window slowly close.

Vancouver fans can claim they hold all the cards all they want. To sit by and add nothing of substance to a team that got trounced by the Kings last year will only lead to another early playoff exit.

The clock is ticking on the Sedin's (they have 4 years left tops, probably only 2 at their current level of play, they turn 33 in Sept) so feel free to sit back and hope someone eventually ponies up the package you're hoping for before their window closes.
Two of our best players were injured, the powerplay was abysmal and the team itself was simply underperforming. That could very well have been an anomaly, hence a great deal of us feel we could run the gauntlet again. Kesler is a concern but his recovery looks promising, while Garrison provides us a much needed presence on the blueline. If Edler plays like he did at the start of the season last year, and the Sedins like they did against LA. We will be perfectly fine.

Can people stop telling us about our roster? There's a good chance we know it better than you do.


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Old
01-08-2013, 01:45 PM
  #887
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Keep winning? Vancouver will not be the team of the past. Aside from the twins, their roster isn't spectacular with Kesler out. If they ride both goalies all season it will hurt them more then getting value from a trade. Not saying it comes from Toronto, but Vancouver has big questions past the 1st line.

Save this post if you want, but if they don't move Lu for value they will not be a winning team.
A team that is missing a major piece up front and Canuck fans are comfortable having a 5 million dollar back-up LOL...hey whatever floats their boat. It's hilarious how they think they have all the power in this situation. Let's just say Schneider plays 40 of the 48 games. Luongo will be paid approx. $625,000 per game..thats ridiculous asset management.

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01-08-2013, 01:48 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by MillarWithASave View Post
As a Panthers fan, we then have no 1st line center.
You also would have three starting goalies .

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01-08-2013, 01:51 PM
  #889
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You also would have three starting goalies .
Florida is only mentioned because that's where Luongo wants to go. Has it even been confirmed that Florida is even interested in him. Why would they go after Luongo when they have Theodore, Clemmensen already signed and they have a your stud in Markstrom who is ready to take over the reigns? Makes no sense. Again I ask, who has confirmed that Florida is actually interested in Luongo?

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01-08-2013, 02:00 PM
  #890
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Florida is only mentioned because that's where Luongo wants to go. Has it even been confirmed that Florida is even interested in him. Why would they go after Luongo when they have Theodore, Clemmensen already signed and they have a your stud in Markstrom who is ready to take over the reigns? Makes no sense. Again I ask, who has confirmed that Florida is actually interested in Luongo?
I've seen Dale Tallon in an interview on sportsnet saying obviously when a player like Luongo is available you kick tires. It is about asking price. FLA has definitely shown interest.

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01-08-2013, 02:04 PM
  #891
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Florida is only mentioned because that's where Luongo wants to go. Has it even been confirmed that Florida is even interested in him. Why would they go after Luongo when they have Theodore, Clemmensen already signed and they have a your stud in Markstrom who is ready to take over the reigns? Makes no sense. Again I ask, who has confirmed that Florida is actually interested in Luongo?
Because he is a mile better than Theodore or Clemmenson? They won't give up much though, not even Bjugstad.

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01-08-2013, 02:05 PM
  #892
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A reminder for anyone considering Lu's contract to be somewhat of a negative, remember that his discounted cap hit is in fact discounted. Most of his elite goalie peers sit between 6.25 and 7k per year. Lu would be at 6.7 but for the fact that the cap hit is discounted. The "penalty" just means you pay for this discount later.

The reminder is that he's legitimately worth his 6.7k paycheck - the 5.3k cap hit is a benefit to any team capable of making use of the discount.

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01-08-2013, 02:06 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by Stats01 View Post
Florida is only mentioned because that's where Luongo wants to go. Has it even been confirmed that Florida is even interested in him. Why would they go after Luongo when they have Theodore, Clemmensen already signed and they have a your stud in Markstrom who is ready to take over the reigns? Makes no sense. Again I ask, who has confirmed that Florida is actually interested in Luongo?



I advise to use google and look through past threads for this information. Suffice it to say, the rumours had them talking, and that Tallon was allowed a meeting with Luongo. That's what's out there. You'll see it when you look it up.

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01-08-2013, 02:08 PM
  #894
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A reminder for anyone considering Lu's contract to be somewhat of a negative, remember that his discounted cap hit is in fact discounted. Most of his elite goalie peers sit between 6.25 and 7k per year. Lu would be at 6.7 but for the fact that the cap hit is discounted. The "penalty" just means you pay for this discount later.

The reminder is that he's legitimately worth his 6.7k paycheck - the 5.3k cap hit is a benefit to any team capable of making use of the discount.


This is an excellent reminder. One that has been glossed over by many fans here. The cap recapture essentially _balances_ the contract, it doesn't just add negative impact to a just "fair" contract. It levels out an "unfair" deal by making it fair, so to speak. I still think the benefit for 6~ years to the leafs/panthers/whomever outweighs the negative impact in the last 3-4 years, still making it good overall instead of just fair.

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01-08-2013, 02:09 PM
  #895
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Except Gillis can keep Luongo and keep winning. If Burke doesn't address his goaltending situation then his team will keep losing. If that doesn't bother you (or Burke...) then that's perfectly fine. But if Burke wants his team to win, then Luongo is the best option available by far.
You wanna know where Toronto's bargaining power comes from? There's more than justLuongo available out there. Do I have the names? no, but the point remains. Gillis has few teams to deal with here in reality. Toronto can deal with anyone, can Vancouver say the same? I want Luongo here but lets not kid ourselves, it's not Luongo or bust. Sure, Gillis can keep him and he might but how many GM's wanna commit that much cap space to two goalies? It's an envious position in terms of talent between the pipes but it's not an envious position in terms of the cap. Cap management dictates it would be foolish to spend that kind of money between two goalies.

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01-08-2013, 02:11 PM
  #896
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As a Panthers fan, we then have no 1st line center.
I think the recent influx of Weiss being involved is due to rumours about him not wanting to re-sign in Florida. If he were to be re-signed then it makes absolutely no sense for Florida.

Weiss + Petrovic for Luongo + forward player/prospect might be a good base if the rumours are true, imo.

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01-08-2013, 02:12 PM
  #897
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A team that is missing a major piece up front and Canuck fans are comfortable having a 5 million dollar back-up LOL...hey whatever floats their boat. It's hilarious how they think they have all the power in this situation. Let's just say Schneider plays 40 of the 48 games. Luongo will be paid approx. $625,000 per game..thats ridiculous asset management.
Schneider won't play 40 games. And good luck to any team who plays their playoff starter 40 times in 3 months. Even injury-free that's risky. The Canucks should trade Luongo......eventually, but given the current schedule, NOT NOW. They'll certainly make the playoffs as is.

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01-08-2013, 02:15 PM
  #898
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You wanna know where Toronto's bargaining power comes from? There's more than justLuongo available out there. Do I have the names? no, but the point remains. Gillis has few teams to deal with here in reality. Toronto can deal with anyone, can Vancouver say the same? I want Luongo here but lets not kid ourselves, it's not Luongo or bust. Sure, Gillis can keep him and he might but how many GM's wanna commit that much cap space to two goalies? It's an envious position in terms of talent between the pipes but it's not an envious position in terms of the cap. Cap management dictates it would be foolish to spend that kind of money between two goalies.
Really? So they'll just go get Lundqvist then, eh?

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01-08-2013, 02:17 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
You wanna know where Toronto's bargaining power comes from? There's more than justLuongo available out there. Do I have the names? no, but the point remains. Gillis has few teams to deal with here in reality. Toronto can deal with anyone, can Vancouver say the same? I want Luongo here but lets not kid ourselves, it's not Luongo or bust. Sure, Gillis can keep him and he might but how many GM's wanna commit that much cap space to two goalies? It's an envious position in terms of talent between the pipes but it's not an envious position in terms of the cap. Cap management dictates it would be foolish to spend that kind of money between two goalies.


You are right, the field is open for Burke. He can go get another goaltender. Let's see what he does.


For VAN, all they need is two teams. One as the actual destination, and one you can play interest off of. He has that here.


Luongo's tenure in VAN has an ending point. No question. He won't be kept indefinitely. That said, your point about cap management is moot. If there is another trade lined up that required cap, then there is an opportunity cost in retaining Luongo. But there has to be that other trade lined up first. If there isn't, the cap spent this year doesn't matter. They are under.

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01-08-2013, 02:18 PM
  #900
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Really? So they'll just go get Lundqvist then, eh?
Right, cause that's what he said.

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