Positive...no. But being a Leaf fan, and going through him not waiving at the deadline because he was going to retire. I recall him taking quite a while to decide if he was going to accept the Canucks offer or retire.
LL, as you can see above, you were wrong about this as well.
Anyways, long discussion turned longer, winning increases the odds of player retention. That's my basic point, and it stands based on history. Now back to your regularly scheduled Luongo rumours.
A Luongo with something to prove...and he does have something to prove, is something Burke should desperately want.
But if he doesn't pony up, and really, I don't see how he can, he will be out of the playoffs and out of the TML organization after this season. And still no number one center or no number one goaltender in the center of the universe.
I think Florida is still the front runner. And as much as that SE division was a curiosity last year, I still think Florida has a good shot at repeating this year...particularly with a happy Longo who has something to prove.
Tallon knows this and Gillis knows this. It may take a bit, but Florida is where I say Lou goes.
How are they the front runner? Look at that lineup. I'd be willing to bet that even with Luongo they are a bottom 10 team.
I absolutely hate the leafs, 99% because of the fanbase. But, this liferleafer is a very smart hockey guy(or gal) and I think he is one of the few leaf fans that actually (get it).
I just plain feel bad for the Leafs to have to go through what we did here in Vancouver with Burke, like they say history repeats itself and it really has. The sad thing is that Toronto is such a storied franchise like the Yankees in baseball although I suppose the Habs are more so comparable with their history to the yanks but to see the leafs get gutted and BS'd by Burke is too bad, it's a shame ownership doesn't get it and has stuck with him, I guess the one bright spot is that ownership hasn't offered him an extention going into his lame duck year of his contract.
There were reports earlier that Tallon had cleared taking on his contract with the Florida ownership. Then of course we had the lockout so there has not been much since.
Also, an alleged meeting between Luongo and Florida...
Luongo is going to Florida, IMHO... Just a matter of when... And I think the when is at (or around) the draft...
Also, an alleged meeting between Luongo and Florida...
Luongo is going to Florida, IMHO... Just a matter of when... And I think the when is at (or around) the draft...
More likely before this season starts. Why? An extra season of Luo in VAN means a higher cap hit when he retires early. Based on current media reports VAN would see an additional $3+M hit added to the cap over the last three 3yrs of his contract (assuming he retires when expected).
LL, as you can see above, you were wrong about thisas well.
Anyways, long discussion turned longer, winning increases the odds of player retention. That's my basic point, and it stands based on history. Now back to your regularly scheduled Luongo rumours.
More likely before this season starts. Why? An extra season of Luo in VAN means a higher cap hit when he retires early. Based on current media reports VAN would see an additional $3+M hit added to the cap over the last three 3yrs of his contract (assuming he retires when expected).
That's incorrect, the Canucks would save $1.4m on the cap this year (or rather, whoever has Luongo this year will) which works out to what, 0.466m against the cap spread across three years.
I really don't think Mike Gillis is going to fall all over himself to deal Luongo to avoid that problem nearly a decade down the line, especially when this current CBA (which might not even be in effect by then) would allow him to trade for players and leave some of their cap hit and salary behind - effectively getting him around any penalty.
PS. I can't believe Pauser wants the Luongo return to be centered around the idea that we're going to cut the Sedins loose after their current contracts.
I just plain feel bad for the Leafs to have to go through what we did here in Vancouver with Burke, like they say history repeats itself and it really has. The sad thing is that Toronto is such a storied franchise like the Yankees in baseball although I suppose the Habs are more so comparable with their history to the yanks but to see the leafs get gutted and BS'd by Burke is too bad, it's a shame ownership doesn't get it and has stuck with him, I guess the one bright spot is that ownership hasn't offered him an extention going into his lame duck year of his contract.
Other than the Kessel deal...i will take the orginization now over what we had when Burke arrived any day.
The 2 time Prez trophy winners couldn't bring Schultz or Doan....sometimes nothing can be done.
The Schultz deal was engineered by Wade Arnott and a source within the Oilers well before he became a free agent. Doan stayed in Phoenix because he is settled there. The Canucks didn't have a chance in either of those situations. Overall they don't seem to have a problem attracting players and they shouldn't as long as they have decent management.
That's incorrect, the Canucks would save $1.4m on the cap this year (or rather, whoever has Luongo this year will) which works out to what, 0.466m against the cap spread across three years.
I really don't think Mike Gillis is going to fall all over himself to deal Luongo to avoid that problem nearly a decade down the line, especially when this current CBA (which might not even be in effect by then) would allow him to trade for players and leave some of their cap hit and salary behind - effectively getting him around any penalty.
Your right. I was thinking he had a $10M salary this year, but that is not the case.
Other than the Kessel deal...i will take the orginization now over what we had when Burke arrived any day.
I agree with that. I've been highly critcial of the Kessel deal but if you look at Gardiner and Rielly along with Phaneuf, Gunner and the other leaf defencemen you can see a strong blueline starting to take shape in a couple of more years. IMO, a strong goalie in net could see the Leafs surprise some people as soon as next year. I agree with you that Burke needs to be able to acquire Luongo without giving up one of the real key pieces. It seems to me that there are probably a combination of assets that could get the deal done.
More likely before this season starts. Why? An extra season of Luo in VAN means a higher cap hit when he retires early. Based on current media reports VAN would see an additional $3+M hit added to the cap over the last three 3yrs of his contract (assuming he retires when expected).
Possible... But I consider that additional cap payment as peanuts, in the grand scheme of things... I don't think Gillis bites on what Tallon is prepared to offer right now, for that bag of peanuts... At that time, what would the cap be projected to be? 80 million? Something like that? Mid-70's? Worth the risk, IMO... At the least, not enough of a negative to not wait a while longer if the "right deal" isn't there right now... To the right team, at the right time, Luongo is worth an awful lot, IMHO... Far greater potential impact than the cap hit penalty if Lu retires early... It's worth waiting a while longer to see if the right team, at the right time, is there... It could be a defining moment, in that the return can have a real impact...
At the deadline? I see that as more likely than now (even though now is also possible)... Here, Tallon can see where his team is at, Theodore is a few inches closer to retirement, draft position can be roughly measured (but better than now), as well as impact for Luongo to maybe make the difference between being in the playoffs or out, or if a playoff team, an extra push to try and go farther, etc... Also, Gillis might be prepared to accept a little less, if the return contains components to help for a playoff run...
Still, I think it'll be (or around) the draft... Florida should be more positioned to take on Luongo (and clearer picture of the benefit, given the team), and Burke should be showing up drunk late night at Gillis' door... Couple other teams too should be more interested... At this time around the draft, Vancouver and Florida could maybe do something too, like include Jovo in a trade, have Vancouver buy out the contract, then Jovo has the chance to re-sign with Florida at a better term contract (if this is possible)... Would be a win for Jovo, too... Still, can think about doing things like this for mutual benefit, when trading between friendly, opposite ends of the NHL, GM's... At the draft, things are positioned to work out well for Vancouver, Florida and Luongo, IMHO... Would work out even better if Luongo leaves the same year he helps bring Vancouver the cup...
Last edited by I in the Eye: 01-08-2013 at 03:05 PM.
Other than the Kessel deal...i will take the orginization now over what we had when Burke arrived any day.
Well the Kessel deal would have been the whole foundation for your franchise in Hamilton and Seguin. If anything you moved sideways. You have no stability within your organisation, everyone throwing the blame on everyone but themselves. The fact the Leafs drove off a cliff like a 18 wheeler is the fact that teams don't come flying out of the gates, top teams build and maintain throughout the season, the Leafs started hot and I remember a great quote from Wilson saying we have the top forward, top defenseman, and top goalie right now about a month in the season. If anyone knows how the NHL marathon of a season it works it should be the head coach. There is a great saying in hockey and other major sports "Don't get to high and don't get to low" I have seen exactly this from Leafs management and that trickles down throughout the rest of the organisation. The Leafs are systematically diseased and it starts at the top. You can go out and get the best possible players or prospects but within the organisation they become ruined. A perfect example is what was done to Luke Schenn or what is happening to Nazem Kadri. Change your leader and the rest will follow.
Ponying up is definitely a fine line to walk on and one that many people would rather avoid. But Luongo is one of those talents that, no matter how many young prospects and high draft picks you have, you may never hit the lotto with. Luongo is a legit elite goalie with still lots of hockey left in him. I don't care what anyone say about his contract, he's a game changer and instantly makes any team better when playing in their net. If my team hadn't been in the playoffs for 7/8 years? and has really been a bust the last 10 I would be praying for my GM to make a bold move and get a guy like Luongo who could instantly make a difference. Unlike young prospects and picks that may never pan out.
haha so true. I actually think Burke is a good GM. He does have an ego and loves to hear himself speak but he's generally good at what he does. It is really too bad that he doesn't have any idea how to evaluate goalies because he'd have multiple rings if he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK
It is true. I also believe it's true about Schneider as well. We are spoiled in Vancouver because, imo, we have 2 legitimate allstar goalies. Schneider just happens to be younger and cheaper. I'm not at all shocked that Vancouver has decided to go in the direction they have. It doesn't mean Luongo has lost his game or that Schneider is better or worse. Schneider is younger and cheaper and a fresh direction is what the team wants. Pretty obvious if you ask me.
Truth. Good stuff MikeK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks
Agreed.
There's nothing that guarantees Weiss would be relegated to 3rd line duty. Sure we could spread out the offense, but I think having a second line of Booth-Weiss-Kesler would be amazing.
Have him as the 3C for the playoff run (oh presumptious me!) giving us 4 good lines, then make Booth - Weiss - Kesler the 2nd line next season... dare to dream?
The Schultz deal was engineered by Wade Arnott and a source within the Oilers well before he became a free agent. Doan stayed in Phoenix because he is settled there. The Canucks didn't have a chance in either of those situations. Overall they don't seem to have a problem attracting players and they shouldn't as long as they have decent management.
I know it's easy to take a run at the Leafs but there's pretty much no question that organization is in better shape now than it was when Brian Burke took over.
Take a look at the opening night roster for the Leafs a few weeks before Burke was hired.
A forward group built around Nik Antropov, Jason Blake, Nik Hagman, Alexei Ponikarovsky and Matt Stajan. A blueline with a rapidly declining Tomas Kaberle, an already-declined Pavel Kubina and nobody else who could even be expected to be an impact player. Vesa Toskala in net.
Right now they have two players better than anyone I've mentioned (Kessel and Phaneuf) and some solid young-ish players to go with them, they have some young players with incredibly high ceilings (JVR and Gardiner) on the roster and a collection of other prospects that should produce a few NHLers and probably a key player or two. It's not exactly the class of the league and some of Burke's FA signings are holding the team back right now but that can change (and Burke may have done enough to be rewarded with the right to be around to try to correct his mistakes).
Let's go back in time to when Burke was GM of the Canucks where one could say this:
"I know it's easy to take a run at the Canucks but there's pretty much no question that organization is in better shape now than it was when Brian Burke took over.
Let's go back in time to when Burke was GM of the Canucks where one could say this:
"I know it's easy to take a run at the Canucks but there's pretty much no question that organization is in better shape now than it was when Brian Burke took over.
Their goaltending still sucks though. "
No disagreement.
That being said, Mike Gillis is in many ways standing on the shoulders of Dave Nonis and Burkie (who in turn benefited greatly from the work done by Quinn and even Keenan).
This team wouldn't be what it is without Brian Burke.. Maple Leafs fans should be so lucky that he fails there after building a future first line and the core of a defense that will last for years.. unfortunately for them I think Burke came upon a team in even worse shape and convinced he had to turn them around even more quickly.
The claim was that Luongo instantly makes any team that much better.
Vancouver is an instance of "any team".
Therefore he should instantly make Vancouver that much better. And if he makes us instantly that much better, we would be silly to get rid of him.
Conversely, if we are an exception, then there are likely other exceptions as well, since they tend to travel in bunches. Which implies the original claim is hyperbolic, at best, and not supportable.
I think we all agree its simple. Trade luongo if there is a decent deal out there. Hang onto him if not. Complicated.
TO is in that nasty position of negotiating from weakness. They want something, but can't afford to give anything up to get it.
