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Luongo: Light at the end of the tunnel?

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Old
01-08-2013, 03:03 PM
  #951
marty111
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
That's fine, then Toronto doesn't get Loungo and finishes 11th to 14th again. Doesn't affect Vancouver in any way.

Gillis moves on to the other teams that were interested, gets a deal done and this thread stops, Toronto is bad again, and Vancouver makes the playoffs. Sounds just fine to me.
Can you please stop bashing other teams while making a response? It's contagious around here and unmerited. These types of responses are bordering on a few things I can't say here without getting banned.

If you have a point to make then fine, but telling other teams how much they are going to suck next year if they don't see your point is really childish.

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01-08-2013, 03:05 PM
  #952
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Oh ok, so theres one salary 1.5M less. Not a strong argument. That would put it above fair market price.
Why exactly would salary concern you? How does it even affect you as a fan? Are you paying out of pocket 6 million?

You should be concerned with 5.3 which is the CAP

There is a huge difference.

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01-08-2013, 03:05 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Vancouver fans: "Toronto, you're going to trade for Roberto, and you're going to pay this particular price!"
Toronto fans: "No we aren't paying that price!"

Etc. etc. etc.

It feels as if Vancouver fans are actively pushing Roberto out the door and dictating to other teams what they will pay for his services. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in real life. Based on past deals and the philosophy in Toronto's front office at the moment, I would be very surprised if Brian Burke offers anything of significant value for Roberto. That includes prospects like Nazem Kadri, Jake Gardiner, Morgan Rielly, Matt Frattin, etc., or high draft picks.

Brian is a stubborn man. Once he feels a GM is being outrageous in their trade demands, he usually hangs up and refuses to call back. I could see that being the case with Gillis.
You sound like you have personal, inside information, are you Mr. Burke's assistant or something? How does he like his eggs?

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01-08-2013, 03:06 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
So 1.5mil saving in 64.3mil cap ?>? than 2 mil cap hit in 75 mil Cap.
It's a fair concept and I'm not against discussing it but it's still a detriment. You have to consider that even on this basis whichever team that acquires him will be paying him 5.3M at some point and he won't be worth it.

That's suppose to be the trade off on these long term deals. But now there's an even further penalty.

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01-08-2013, 03:07 PM
  #955
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I think you are confusing the point that Gary Bettman - for example - hated these contracts because they provided unfair advantage to teams in a league he wanted to excel at parity.

It goes two ways. Vancouver would have an unfair advantage now and would have a disadvantage when it's over [penatly].

Gary doesn't want either and in addition doesn't want GM's spending money so carelessly that it cripples the function of the league [no insurance on deal over 7 years - sound familiar?]

These contracts effect parity in both the short term AND the long term of the league and the problem with that is that short sighted GM's like Gillis - who will be long gone before the effects of the deal - signed them for selfish reasons.
Yea and?

I'm not certain what your looking for here. You either want Luongo, or you don't. If you do...you'll have to pay for him. Simple as that. Don't have pieces? Cool. Van will hang onto him then and run with the terrific tandem(alliteration) of CS and RL and win the stanley cup with their incredible goalie depth. No problemo. Short season, the team wont be bogged down with injuries and with Kesler back and to full strength by the time the PO's roll around...no problem.

To sit and try to tell everyone that an elite goaltender in the league has no ****ing value because he has a big contract, which he is worth every penny btw, and is 33(like holy ****...its not like he's moving his **** into the old folks home or anything...he's 33, really not that old.) is horse ****. of course he has value. The money means nothing to a team that is worth a billion dollars. Lets say that again so everyone gets it...a Billion.

Not a million...a thousand of those. Thats a lot.

Rest assured that real world money means nothing to the Toronto "I'm worth a billion ****ing dollars" maple leafs.

He regresses? No problem. buy him out.

Why?

Because a two million dollar cap hit is nothing to cry over, and once more for the cheap seats, Toronto is worth a Billion dollars and money means nothing to them. Especially after they make the playoffs and make straight up profit for at least two, maybe four...maybe more games. Rinse and repeat for four to five seasons. By this time, Scrivens, or whoever, could be a great goalie and your set.

Luongo retires. Toronto is now a contender, the world has now reverted back to being correct and holy in the eyes of the fans of the Billion dollar hockey team, the Toronto Maple Leafs.

You can have all of this, and more...and all it will cost you is

A top six forward, a decent defender, a really good prospect and a first.

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01-08-2013, 03:08 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I think you are confusing the point that Gary Bettman - for example - hated these contracts because they provided unfair advantage to teams in a league he wanted to excel at parity.

It goes two ways. Vancouver would have an unfair advantage now and would have a disadvantage when it's over [penatly].

Gary doesn't want either and in addition doesn't want GM's spending money so carelessly that it cripples the function of the league [no insurance on deal over 7 years - sound familiar?]

These contracts effect parity in both the short term AND the long term of the league and the problem with that is that short sighted GM's like Gillis - who will be long gone before the effects of the deal - signed them for selfish reasons.


Gillis signs a player to a contract that provides "an unfair advantage"? What about Holland? Tallon? Lamoriello?


You call one short-sighted, you call them all that. And note, these are some of the better "hockey minds" in the business that you are saying that to. Somehow, I don't think your opinion will be validated.

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01-08-2013, 03:08 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Can you please stop bashing other teams while making a response? It's contagious around here and unmerited. These types of responses are bordering on a few things I can't say here without getting banned.

If you have a point to make then fine, but telling other teams how much they are going to suck next year if they don't see your point is really childish.
Who is bashing another team? What in the world are you talking about?

Toronto finished 13th last year, 13th the year before, 10th the year prior to that. One of the biggest predictors of the future events is how teams/people have behaved in the past.

Without significant upgrades it is logical and expected Toronto will finish 10th to 14th, given that they have for 3 years straight now.

Simply because I am not guaranteeing the Maple Leafs to win the Stanley Cup does not mean I am bashing them, or stating they are going to suck.

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01-08-2013, 03:09 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
You sound like you have personal, inside information, are you Mr. Burke's assistant or something? How does he like his eggs?
I'm not close to Brian Burke but I am close to Dallas Eakins. A mod can confirm this if they'd like but I've said nothing that would need be confirmed anyways.

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01-08-2013, 03:10 PM
  #959
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They could also keep Luongo and trade 'the other guy' for a better return, unless this is strictly a cap-fitting move.

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01-08-2013, 03:10 PM
  #960
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Yea and?

I'm not certain what your looking for here. iYou either want Luongo, or you don't. If you do...you'll have to pay for him. Simple as that. Don't have peces? Cool. Van will hang onto him then and run with the terrific tandem(alliteration) of CS and RL and win the stanley cup with their incredible goalie depth. No problemo. Short season, the team wont be bogged down with injuries and with Kesler back and to full strength by the time the PO's roll around...no problem.

Sully, don't let him/her get to you. He wants Luongo, but he is doing his level best to artificially reduce his value in these threads that he has gone "all in" on this pathetic recapture mechanism. It's not his/her fault. He/She just wants Lu at an ultra-discounted price.


Can't blame him really. His/her vehemence only confirms the desire for Lu.

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01-08-2013, 03:11 PM
  #961
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We get it. The leafs will be better with Luongo.

Doesn't mean we want to give you the keys to our Bentley.

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01-08-2013, 03:11 PM
  #962
marty111
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
Why exactly would salary concern you? How does it even affect you as a fan? Are you paying out of pocket 6 million?

You should be concerned with 5.3 which is the CAP

There is a huge difference.
Well as a fan I'm concerned with my team being limited with their cap down the line.

I'm not saying I don't want Luongo on my team and that he's untradable or anything - I'm simply calling out those people that are acting like this new recapture cap penalty is meaningless. It most certainly is not.

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01-08-2013, 03:13 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Gillis signs a player to a contract that provides "an unfair advantage"? What about Holland? Tallon? Lamoriello?
They are all bad contracts I believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Sully, don't let him/her get to you. He wants Luongo, but he is doing his level best to artificially reduce his value in these threads that he has gone "all in" on this pathetic recapture mechanism. It's not his/her fault. He/She just wants Lu at an ultra-discounted price.


Can't blame him really. His/her vehemence only confirms the desire for Lu.
I would appreciate you dialing down the personal attack please and thank you.

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01-08-2013, 03:14 PM
  #964
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How about the Capitals as a dark horse team?

I know Holtby had a good run, but WSH is a team looking for a cup now, would they be a fit?
They'd probably get a decent return on their current goalies as well.

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01-08-2013, 03:14 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Well as a fan I'm concerned with my team being limited with their cap down the line.

I'm not saying I don't want Luongo on my team and that he's untradable or anything - I'm simply calling out those people that are acting like this new recapture cap penalty is meaningless. It most certainly is not.


It's tantamount to meaningless, and Friedmann says as much in his article. Have you read it?


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...to-luongo.html


If that's not marginalizing the impact of the recapture formula, I don't know what is. Maybe you should call him out too?


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 01-08-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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01-08-2013, 03:16 PM
  #966
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They are all bad contracts I believe.


Well then that settles that doesn't it? I'm on the opposite side of the fence on this one. Those contracts are brilliant IMO. It's why some of the smarter GMs in the league issued them.




Quote:
I would appreciate you dialing down the personal attack please and thank you.

I didn't attack you there?? Only outlined your desire.

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01-08-2013, 03:21 PM
  #967
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It's tantamount to meaningless, and Friedmann says as much in his article. Have you read it?


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...to-luongo.html


If that's not marginalizing the impact of the recapture formula, I don't what is. Maybe you should call him out too?
It doesn't hurt Roberto Luongo as the title insists. Doesn't mention not hurting Gillis or Burke.

This article clearly dictates the penalty that teams will have to pay for Gillis mistake. You may be able to marginalize it - as I've heard - but that doesn't equate to absolutely no problem - as you have been saying.

Nice try though.

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01-08-2013, 03:22 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It's tantamount to meaningless, and Friedmann says as much in his article. Have you read it?


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...to-luongo.html


If that's not marginalizing the impact of the recapture formula, I don't what is. Maybe you should call him out too?
That's assuming he doesn't retire in year 11 which would mess up Vancouver. Point is, it still causes a lot of uncertainty. Of course, its quite possible neither MG or BB are around when all is said and done


I wonder what happens if Luongo gets traded to Leafs and then traded again say 2-3 years later and then retires 3 years after that

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01-08-2013, 03:23 PM
  #969
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
It's a fair concept and I'm not against discussing it but it's still a detriment. You have to consider that even on this basis whichever team that acquires him will be paying him 5.3M at some point and he won't be worth it.

That's suppose to be the trade off on these long term deals. But now there's an even further penalty.
Pretty sure if there is a penalty(maybe there is, haven't heard about it) it will be thrown at Vancouver.

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01-08-2013, 03:24 PM
  #970
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Pretty sure if there is a penalty(maybe there is, haven't heard about it) it will be thrown at Vancouver.
The penalty will be equally divided between Toronto and Vancouver, if a trade were to go down between those two teams.

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01-08-2013, 03:24 PM
  #971
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id like to ask leaf nation a question.

What bothers you more:
being the only team not to make the playoffs in the last 10 years.
Or How much the billion dollar company that charges max money for a sup par product spends on said product?

If the canucks could get zetterberg on a discount trade value wise do you think any canuck fans would care about the $$ the owners have to spend under the table?? heck no

The contract is peanuts to a team like the leafs.. A winning product will make them all that money back in spades.

I understand leaf fans want to use the contract to devalue Lu just like Van fans brush it off to build his value. Negotiations happen like this.

Im a canuck fan. If Lu was signed for 4 years at 5.2 we could pick anything from your team we wanted. Hes not so we have to be more resonable on our package requests. But dont for a second think that LU wont make more of a difference for the leafs than anything you send us back.

The leafs can afford the contract. The leafs can also afford to buy out the contract if it goes pear shaped. The leafs need a goalie. BB time is running out he is 4 years into a rebuild that has had highlights (lupul phanuef gardiner) and major lows (seguin Hamilton Monster) but no real traction.. he drafted 2nd overall his first year and 5th last year. Are the leafs better today than when he started.. sure but not 4 years of poor play better. They dont have edmontons assets or 20 mill in cap space.

This deal should happen because its the best hockey fit for both sides. i think the crunch will be a 1st or 1 level prospect to join bozak. Neither of those assets will make or break leaf nation. You lose a decent 2nd 3rd line tweener and one A asset. i promise after LU steals you 4-8 games this year you wont mind the price. Specially when your playing in the playoffs.

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01-08-2013, 03:24 PM
  #972
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
It doesn't hurt Roberto Luongo as the title insists. Doesn't mention not hurting Gillis or Burke.

This article clearly dictates the penalty that teams will have to pay for Gillis mistake. You may be able to marginalize it - as I've heard - but that doesn't equate to absolutely no problem - as you have been saying.

Nice try though.
It equates to a very minimal impact to a team, especially as the way it works out maximizes Luongo's value: You get him below market-price in terms of cap hit wile the cap is relatively low, while in 7 years when the cap is higher, you get a 2 mil penalty for 3 years, which would be much less inhibitive than it would be now. And that's assuming he isn't LTIRed or traded to a cap floor team before he retires.

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01-08-2013, 03:26 PM
  #973
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They are all bad contracts I believe.



I would appreciate you dialing down the personal attack please and thank you.
him/her is only referring to the fact Bleach, and myself, are confused on whether your a guy or girl. Your writing to me indicates guy, but there is a picture of a rather attractive lady in your avatar who i do not recognize, hence the confusion.

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01-08-2013, 03:26 PM
  #974
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The penalty will be equally divided between Toronto and Vancouver, if a trade were to go down between those two teams.
It's not an equal divide. It depends on actual cap savings. EF's article clearly states this which is why there are slightly different numbers in penalty.

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01-08-2013, 03:27 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
It doesn't hurt Roberto Luongo as the title insists. Doesn't mention not hurting Gillis or Burke.

This article clearly dictates the penalty that teams will have to pay for Gillis mistake. You may be able to marginalize it - as I've heard - but that doesn't equate to absolutely no problem - as you have been saying.

Nice try though.




That's eerie, you and birddog have the same counter-argument... Can you tell me how any CBA would actually hurt Luongo himself? I'll wait.


He marginalizes it in the article itself. He says the penalty is about 2m per over 3 years for each team in the trade. He states that Lu can be LTIR'd and/or bought out as well. Or that salary + cap can be exchanged to mitigate the burden. EF is basically listing the outs to tell us "this doesn't matter much".


At the end of it he says:


Quote:
Maybe he's had enough and is battling some nagging groin or hip or knee problem. He goes on LTIR, still gets paid and neither Toronto nor Vancouver gets any kind of penalty.

Could work


How is that not marginalizing it? There are so many ways around this. Just need a shrewd GM.

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