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Luongo: Is the light getting brighter?

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Old
01-08-2013, 05:19 PM
  #76
cyris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Yeah 1 season vs a part season... seems way more proven. Until this last season it wasn't even close. Kassian's pedigree has been much more this entire time, and he has now spent half a season playing in the NHL.
He is still more proven. And Gards played better in his full season than Kassian in his half. Gardner the Dman put up a better PPG than Kassian the forward.

And its not like Kassian's pedigree was that much higher. They were drafted around the same spot. And both improved after their draft.

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01-08-2013, 05:20 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
What about

Bozak
Kulemin
Frattin

for

Luongo
Raymond

?
I think it should be either Kulemin or Frattin and a prospect like Kadri.

I don't want Bozak, but it appears for some reason he's neccessary in a deal.

I do think that the value is off there, though.

Kadri, Finn + roster player like Kulemin/Frattin/Bozak with maybe a non-1st pick thrown in would be fair to me.

or replace Finn with a 2014 1st, maybe? I don't think the 2013 1st is off the table like most Leafs fans think, but I'd be willing to back off it for the sake of a deal.

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01-08-2013, 05:20 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
They are both the same age and Kadri has more goals, assists, points per game.

But yea preferring Kadri makes us homers
wow...are all of you so sensitive? It was obviously a joke.

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01-08-2013, 05:24 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
You are way overrated your players then, I can understand if you want Gardiner more, as to you with your current roster, he should be more valuable. But currently, and even on potential they should be a wash.



Umm, have you seen our D? Edler, Hamhuis, Garrison, Bieksa all locked up long term, with Tanev and Ballard. Corrado on the way.
Pretty odd to state that when both players are very close in age and Gardiner is more productive at both ends of the ice...

Gardiner is significantly more valuable then Kassian, as for Kassian and Kadri, I'd say that's probably a wash value wise, but I'd still rather have Kadri.

Kassian's ceiling is not that high, he lacks high end skill and hockey sense. His shot power, grit and size top his ceiling for me as a 2nd line winger...

Gardiner's potential is that of a #2 50pt defenseman.

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01-08-2013, 05:25 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think it should be either Kulemin or Frattin and a prospect like Kadri.

I don't want Bozak, but it appears for some reason he's neccessary in a deal.

I do think that the value is off there, though.

Kadri, Finn + roster player like Kulemin/Frattin/Bozak with maybe a non-1st pick thrown in would be fair to me.

or replace Finn with a 2014 1st, maybe? I don't think the 2013 1st is off the table like most Leafs fans think, but I'd be willing to back off it for the sake of a deal.
I'd honestly much rather have Frattin than Kadri. I have serious doubts about his ability to play with the big boys.

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01-08-2013, 05:26 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Homer
You think so? Maybe.

I mean, Kadri has 19 points in 51 games. Kassian has 10 points in 44 games. Nazem Kadri has statistically outperformed Zach Kassian at every level of hockey they've played. They are different types of players and you could argue Kassian brings intangibles to the table and you'd be right, but Kadri and Kassian are closer in value in my opinion than Kassian and Gardiner. Kassian and Gardiner a wash? No. That's for damn sure.

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Old
01-08-2013, 05:27 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
Pretty odd to state that when both players are very close in age and Gardiner is more productive at both ends of the ice...

Gardiner is significantly more valuable then Kassian, as for Kassian and Kadri, I'd say that's probably a wash value wise, but I'd still rather have Kadri.

Kassian's ceiling is not that high, he lacks high end skill and hockey sense. His shot power, grit and size top his ceiling for me as a 2nd line winger...

Gardiner's potential is that of a #2 50pt defenseman.
Lol. Sounds like you haven't watched him that much. His skill level is definitely there, he has great playmaking ability and an underrated shot. It's his consistency that needs work.

Anyways, I think Kadri and Kassian have similar values, with Kadri being more skilled but Kassian having the size/grit that makes him a safer bet.

Of course, Kassian's value is inflated to Vancouver due to the price we paid.

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01-08-2013, 05:27 PM
  #83
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Lu's got to be one of the most consistent and proven people in the league. His contract, despite many of the fears of amateur armchair GM's, is more than manageable. As others have shown, it's actually a selling point with the prospect of circumventing a penalty via LTIR all the while making use of the unreasonably cheap 5.3 million cap hit for elite goaltending. When that trails and dips below is definitely debatable, but that game is impossible to predict. All you can do is go off past play which tells you that he's been at the top of his game since he came into the league and that he'll continue to put up great numbers wherever he goes.

So what do elite players get when you trade them? Well, a lot. When in talks with Florida, MG and Tallon were butting heads with MG wanting Huberdeau and Tallon not budging. Likely because of Lu wanting to go to Florida and Vancouver then dealing from a disadvantage. But without that disadvantage, if Florida isn't an option, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect that an elite player in the NHL will go for rentals and low picks when other teams don't have that kind of similar trade advantage. You can bet that if Vancouver expects to get a return like Huberdeau from Florida that Gillis is not going to trade Lu for Bozak and Kadri. He'll likely go after the kind of players that many people here consider untouchable. But the GM's realize that while Gillis isn't in a rush to kick Lu out, (especially with the benefit a goalie duo provides in a rushed schedule) teams that could make big strides this season with an improved goalie will start to get nervous. There's added pressure to make the playoffs this year because of the missing revenue from games missed. Edmonton, TO, Chi, Washington are far from the only teams that would benefit. Unplugging Lu from Van will take something big - not just because of the competition, but because of how very proven he is at being a top performer.

Ultimately, it will come down to trading highly proven talent for unproven talent with high upside. There's no way Gillis should settle for anything less than top prospects from teams given that at the very least, what's going their way is a goalie that will have an estimated 5 years of top quality goaltending. Knowing the quality of the performance ahead is more than can be said for many of these younger players.

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Old
01-08-2013, 05:28 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
You think so? Maybe.

I mean, Kadri has 19 points in 51 games. Kassian has 10 points in 44 games. Nazem Kadri has statistically outperformed Zach Kassian at every level of hockey they've played. They are different types of players and you could argue Kassian brings intangibles to the table and you'd be right, but Kadri and Kassian are closer in value in my opinion than Kassian and Gardiner. Kassian and Gardiner a wash? No. That's for damn sure.
How do you guys not see the joke/sarcasm in that post? I mean he used a winky face...

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01-08-2013, 05:28 PM
  #85
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This could honestly be the worst move Toronto can make for the franchise...worse than the Kessel trade.

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01-08-2013, 05:29 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
You think so? Maybe.

I mean, Kadri has 19 points in 51 games. Kassian has 10 points in 44 games. Nazem Kadri has statistically outperformed Zach Kassian at every level of hockey they've played. They are different types of players and you could argue Kassian brings intangibles to the table and you'd be right, but Kadri and Kassian are closer in value in my opinion than Kassian and Gardiner. Kassian and Gardiner a wash? No. That's for damn sure.
Where was Kadri playing? Cause I'n pretty sure Kassian was playing the 4th line the majority of the time. Then again Vancouver's 4th line is like Toronto's 2nd.

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01-08-2013, 05:29 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
You think so? Maybe.

I mean, Kadri has 19 points in 51 games. Kassian has 10 points in 44 games. Nazem Kadri has statistically outperformed Zach Kassian at every level of hockey they've played. They are different types of players and you could argue Kassian brings intangibles to the table and you'd be right, but Kadri and Kassian are closer in value in my opinion than Kassian and Gardiner. Kassian and Gardiner a wash? No. That's for damn sure.
This!
I can see an argument on both sides on Kadri vs Kassian. And anyone picking 1 over the other certainly isnt a homer.

But Gardnier vs. Kassian isnt even close.

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01-08-2013, 05:30 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
I'd honestly much rather have Frattin than Kadri. I have serious doubts about his ability to play with the big boys.
I'd rather have a player with a 70% chance of being a skilled top-6 forward than one with a 90% chance of becoming a gritty bottom-6er.

Numbers pulled out of thin air, but about the way I see it.

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01-08-2013, 05:31 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
He is still more proven. And Gards played better in his full season than Kassian in his half. Gardner the Dman put up a better PPG than Kassian the forward.

And its not like Kassian's pedigree was that much higher. They were drafted around the same spot. And both improved after their draft.
Again it comes down to a half season vs a full season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
Pretty odd to state that when both players are very close in age and Gardiner is more productive at both ends of the ice...

Gardiner is significantly more valuable then Kassian, as for Kassian and Kadri, I'd say that's probably a wash value wise, but I'd still rather have Kadri.

Kassian's ceiling is not that high, he lacks high end skill and hockey sense. His shot power, grit and size top his ceiling for me as a 2nd line winger...

Gardiner's potential is that of a #2 50pt defenseman.
Your scouting report on Kassian is completely wrong. He is a skilled PF. I hear people comparing him to Lucic, and I always ask if they have seen him play. Kassian's skill set is much better, if he can put it together is another story, but they are not the same type of players. The best comparison would be like a Bertuzzi, both great skaters, puck handlers and passers.

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01-08-2013, 05:31 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by The Overseer View Post
Grabovski
Kulemin
Finn

might get you Luongo and Raymond.

A deal around a journeyman 2-3 tweener like Bozak doesn't get you that package.
what?!?

is this post for serious?

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01-08-2013, 05:32 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'd rather have a player with a 70% chance of being a skilled top-6 forward than one with a 90% chance of becoming a gritty bottom-6er.

Numbers pulled out of thin air, but about the way I see it.
Frattin is a sniper, not a grinder.

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01-08-2013, 05:32 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Where was Kadri playing? Cause I'n pretty sure Kassian was playing the 4th line the majority of the time. Then again Vancouver's 4th line is like Toronto's 2nd.
Kadri played most of his time with us on the third line.

Even so what about Kadri putting up better numbers in the AHL and CHL?

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01-08-2013, 05:33 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Again it comes down to a half season vs a full season.
No it comes down to Gardner has proven himself in the NHL. Kassian hasn't.

I bet if you went to the main board and started a poll Gardner would win in a landslide.

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01-08-2013, 05:34 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Kadri played most of his time with us on the third line.

Even so what about Kadri putting up better numbers in the AHL and CHL?
The question marks surrounding Kadri revolve around his ability to play with full grown, aggressive men.

There are no questions of whether or not Kassian can hang with the big boys.

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01-08-2013, 05:35 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Lol. Sounds like you haven't watched him that much. His skill level is definitely there, he has great playmaking ability and an underrated shot. It's his consistency that needs work.

Anyways, I think Kadri and Kassian have similar values, with Kadri being more skilled but Kassian having the size/grit that makes him a safer bet.

Of course, Kassian's value is inflated to Vancouver due to the price we paid.
You must be right, I mean I've only seen him play about 20+ times, be it Sabres, Americans, Nuck or Wolves...

He has a great shot, I wouldn't call it underrated as I've heard so much praise
about it and I've seen him score with hard accurate wristers before. I've yet to see this so called "great playmaking ability" from him though.

Kassian has far too many brain "farts" he's a selfish and undisciplined player and he does not show tonnes of skill.

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01-08-2013, 05:36 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
This could honestly be the worst move Toronto can make for the franchise...worse than the Kessel trade.

No need to fret, Luongo is still a Canuck. Him heading to TOR is only speculation.

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01-08-2013, 05:36 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Kadri played most of his time with us on the third line.

Even so what about Kadri putting up better numbers in the AHL and CHL?
With Rochester Kassian had 26 points in 30 games in 2011-2012, Kadri 40 in 48.

This year his production dipped, but only because our AHL team is an offensive black hole.

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01-08-2013, 05:37 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Kadri played most of his time with us on the third line.

Even so what about Kadri putting up better numbers in the AHL and CHL?
Have you watched the Chicago Wolves at all? Their system is a joke, no high end defensive prospects to move the puck up (Tanev leads D in points) & their PP is non existent. Just so you know Scott Arneil is the coach

Look at the numbers Kassian put up in Buff's system then in Van's system
Then look at Hodgson's numbers in Van's system then Buff's.

Maybe you shouldn't just look at stats


Can't really comment on the CHL though, didn't watch either during that time.

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01-08-2013, 05:37 PM
  #99
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This could honestly be the worst move Toronto can make for the franchise...worse than the Kessel trade.
I can see how Leafs' fans would have their reservations, but nothing could set the Leafs back more than that Kessel trade at this point...

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01-08-2013, 05:37 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Really? I say no, Kassian for Gardiner is a wash, but we don't need Gardiner as much as we need Kass, and Kadri Connelly for Lui and Raymond is terrible.
How is Kassian for Gardiner a wash lol.


Gardiner >>> Kassian ...

Leafs offer Bozak + mid prospect (Blacker?) + pick at most.

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