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Old
01-08-2013, 04:41 PM
  #101
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Sean Couturier is what Willis was talkin' about.

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01-08-2013, 04:41 PM
  #102
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Is it just me, or maybe its just in the games against the Flyers, that PK doesnt look like a #1 to me. When I think of #1s in the league, I think of Weber, Pronger(when healthy), Myers, Doughty, Karlsson, etc of that ilk. Perhaps he could be, idk. I wouldnt trade the farm for him personally

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01-08-2013, 04:46 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Stizzle View Post
If you really believe Plek holds more value in a trade than Couts, you are beyond delusional. I don't think you could get one half sane person to agree with you. I hope you are just joking.
Absolutely not. People talk about Couturier as if he were the second coming of Jesus around here... I may be exagerating but you know what I mean. People give Couturier a lot of value because of his potential, which if he reaches it would make him become a player just like Plekanec, but with a little more offense, but then again, just a little. And I'll repeat, it's a potential here, there's absolutely no guarantee that he's ever going to reach it.

If people want to look at Couturier's wingers last year to say he could have got more points than he did had he played with better players, you guys should look which wingers Plek has to play with every night. It's almost never the same, and for some reason, the coaches always put him with guys like Mathieu Darche, Travis Moen, Tom Kostopoulos (when he was here), etc. So the same argument could be made for Plekanec, for 3-4 years now.

I know we're on HF here and that we all like prospects and stuff, but in no way does Couturier, in real life, hold more value than a proven great defensive player who gets 55-60 points every year.

Yes, Plek has a better trade value than Couturier right now.

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01-08-2013, 04:46 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
He scored 27 as a teenage rookie playing on the 4th line with goons and getting zero PP time. It's not a metaphysical certainty that my car is going to be in the garage when I leave here, but I wouldn't call it "up in the air" either. Simply by upgrading lines/ice time, his points are likely to take a significant jump.
I was under the impression he played on the third line in a shutdown role, not the fourth line in a goon role. I believe he got zero PP time because he is on an offensively talented team and they needed him for his defensive play more than his offensive play. There is no doubt in my mind that COuturier can be a two way player, and be great at both ends. Heeasily has the potential to do what Plekanec has managed to do. The main difference is that Couturier is on a far better offensive oriented team, so he is more needed for his defensive role. As such, he will probably always have less offensive chances (PP, offensive zome starts, etc...) than he deserves.

Couturier is a terrific young player that most teams would be very lucky to have. Montreal would be lucky to have him...but not at the cost of Subban due to our needs. I really hope we can leave it at that.

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01-08-2013, 04:49 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Stizzle View Post
If you really believe Plek holds more value in a trade than Couts, you are beyond delusional. I don't think you could get one half sane person to agree with you. I hope you are just joking.
Again, as stated previously, it truly depends upon the team, where it stands, and what its long term vs short term goals are. A team that is Plekanec away from a good run at a Cup takes Plekanec. A team building towards a core to be able to make many runs for future Cups, goes with Couturier. All of which is also dependent upon what other needs each team has and needs.

Trades are not made in a vaccuum, I know I am sane (as do all crazy people...wait, I meant sane people...wait I meant...awww, never mind), and yes, there are teams that would rather have Plekanec now than Couturier.

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01-08-2013, 04:58 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Stizzle View Post
Wow, just wow. If the Flyers offered Couts for Plekanec straight up some of you would say no? That is amazing. A #1 center for the next 10 years and you'd say no. Just wow.
Actually, I am not sure we would immediately say "no".

There are definitely people on the Habs side who would agree with a Couturier for Plekanec offer. 1st, Couturier is french, and that has a lot of trade significance in Quebec to the francophone fans who have longed for a potential french star for years. 2nd, Couturier is less expensive than Plekanec. 3rd, many people want to see Montreal do a small rebuild. As such, there would be people willing to do a Couturier for Plekanec straight up deal due to all of those considerations.

However, there are many others who do feel the Habs have a team capable of contending right now (I am one of them). As of this moment, I believe we are a stronger team for this and probably next season with Plekanec over Couturier. Since I want a chance at the Cup sooner than later, I would probably want to keep Plekanec if the only player coming back was Couturier. If, during the season, it looked like we were not where I believe we are, and we were looking at another year like last year, I would then consider moving Plekanec for Couturier because of ALL THREE reasons listed above ADDED to our being out of the playoffs.

I hope this is a clear and easy thing to understand. Trading is never done in a vaccuum. Team needs for both sides, team desires for both sides, team assets on both sides, all have to be considered. If we all did that more often, there would be less bickering and more understanding when some people decide to refuse an offer.

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01-08-2013, 05:03 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by FlyerFire View Post
Is it just me, or maybe its just in the games against the Flyers, that PK doesnt look like a #1 to me. When I think of #1s in the league, I think of Weber, Pronger(when healthy), Myers, Doughty, Karlsson, etc of that ilk. Perhaps he could be, idk. I wouldnt trade the farm for him personally
It depends upon what you mean by a number one. DO you mean number one on the league or a top pairing number one on more than a single team in the league? There are multiple teams where Subban would be the clear #1 defenceman. There are some where he would be a #2, and even a couple where he might be a 2nd pairing defenceman (CHicago comes to mind). So, it depends upon what you mean, and what a team needs. Nothing is ever as clear and easy as we hope it is in evaluating a player. However, that being said, Subban has progressed better than Myers. He is not anywhere close to Pronger or Weber, but he is far better than a lot of people actually realize. He is a definite #1 in the league, but is just as definitely not a top 10 in the league...yet. Keep in mind he has played less seasons than most of the guys you liste, and he is already comparable to at least one...

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01-08-2013, 05:44 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspirine View Post
Couturier better than Plekanec defensively? Now I've seen it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
If I had a choice between the two right now, I'd take Pleks. Couturier's potential is only marginally higher than what Plekanec is doing RIGHT NOW and HAS DONE. That is assuming that he encounters no injury issues, regression, etc, etc.

Plekanec is a FAR better forward for the now and near future. Whether or not Couturier even manages to break 30 points is still up in the air.
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Not a chance. Value isn't even. If Subban was traded, I would want more than Couts for him. A number 1/2 DMan still progressing is more valuable than a number 2/3center thats also progressing.
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Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
Couturier better then Pleks defensively ? wowwww ill agree he holds more value because of he's age and theres good chances he will become better in a few years but right now he's nowhere near Tomas offensively or defensively

And PK's value >>> Couts

U guys really watch hockey in Philly ? Geez this is embarrassing
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Originally Posted by jpchabby View Post
Absolutely not. People talk about Couturier as if he were the second coming of Jesus around here... I may be exagerating but you know what I mean. People give Couturier a lot of value because of his potential, which if he reaches it would make him become a player just like Plekanec, but with a little more offense, but then again, just a little. And I'll repeat, it's a potential here, there's absolutely no guarantee that he's ever going to reach it.

If people want to look at Couturier's wingers last year to say he could have got more points than he did had he played with better players, you guys should look which wingers Plek has to play with every night. It's almost never the same, and for some reason, the coaches always put him with guys like Mathieu Darche, Travis Moen, Tom Kostopoulos (when he was here), etc. So the same argument could be made for Plekanec, for 3-4 years now.

I know we're on HF here and that we all like prospects and stuff, but in no way does Couturier, in real life, hold more value than a proven great defensive player who gets 55-60 points every year.

Yes, Plek has a better trade value than Couturier right now.

Epitome of homerism. Pleks doesn't have the value coots has and its not remotely close. Subban>=Couturier value wise.. I think it's even if I HAD to place value I give Subban a slight edge... Now Habs fans who has more value Subban or Pleks? Didn't think so. Couturier has better defense now than Pleks.

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01-08-2013, 05:47 PM
  #109
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Thanks Dryden for clearing that up some for me I just havent seen him play much. I apologize

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01-08-2013, 05:56 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by FlyerFire View Post
Thanks Dryden for clearing that up some for me I just havent seen him play much. I apologize
No need to apologize, you were polite and involved. What more can be asked for on these boards. Thanks for an easy discussion.

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01-08-2013, 05:59 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by jpchabby View Post
Absolutely not. People talk about Couturier as if he were the second coming of Jesus around here... I may be exagerating but you know what I mean. People give Couturier a lot of value because of his potential, which if he reaches it would make him become a player just like Plekanec, but with a little more offense, but then again, just a little. And I'll repeat, it's a potential here, there's absolutely no guarantee that he's ever going to reach it.

If people want to look at Couturier's wingers last year to say he could have got more points than he did had he played with better players, you guys should look which wingers Plek has to play with every night. It's almost never the same, and for some reason, the coaches always put him with guys like Mathieu Darche, Travis Moen, Tom Kostopoulos (when he was here), etc. So the same argument could be made for Plekanec, for 3-4 years now.

I know we're on HF here and that we all like prospects and stuff, but in no way does Couturier, in real life, hold more value than a proven great defensive player who gets 55-60 points every year.

Yes, Plek has a better trade value than Couturier right now.
If Couturier reaches his potential, he'll be an Eric Staal, not a Tomas Plekanek.

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01-08-2013, 06:06 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Epitome of homerism. Pleks doesn't have the value coots has and its not remotely close. Subban>=Couturier value wise.. I think it's even if I HAD to place value I give Subban a slight edge... Now Habs fans who has more value Subban or Pleks? Didn't think so. Couturier has better defense now than Pleks.
To answer your question, Subban has more value than Plekanec. However, that is ALSO due to us having Eller. Eller is to us the same thing that Couturier is to you. We could afford to trade Plekanec to a team for a need position because we believe Eller has the potential to be as good as Plekanec defensively, and might be able to produce more points if given better line mates than Plekanec has had over the last couple of seasons. How would we get those better line mates? Trading Plekanec, unfortunately. So, as an example, if we traded Plekanec for a package from Chicago including Saad, Jimmy Hayes, and a 1st (a deal some Hawks fans and I agreed upon in earlier trade threads), Eller could have Saad on the left (size and skill) with Gionta on the right (speed and skill) to help him produce more points. So, Subban is worth more to us for a few reasons, one of which being the same reason why Subban is worth more to us than Couturier: Eller.

No homerism, just a good understanding of team needs and asset management.

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01-08-2013, 06:13 PM
  #113
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I swear you all are just discussing this whole Pleks vs. Couturier schtick to death now and when you are finally tired of it some Flyers will say "Why would we trade Coots for Subban, if we didn`t trade him for Weber" like always. So just give it up now, it`s immaterial.

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01-08-2013, 06:16 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by jpchabby View Post
Absolutely not. People talk about Couturier as if he were the second coming of Jesus around here... I may be exagerating but you know what I mean. People give Couturier a lot of value because of his potential, which if he reaches it would make him become a player just like Plekanec, but with a little more offense, but then again, just a little. And I'll repeat, it's a potential here, there's absolutely no guarantee that he's ever going to reach it.

If people want to look at Couturier's wingers last year to say he could have got more points than he did had he played with better players, you guys should look which wingers Plek has to play with every night. It's almost never the same, and for some reason, the coaches always put him with guys like Mathieu Darche, Travis Moen, Tom Kostopoulos (when he was here), etc. So the same argument could be made for Plekanec, for 3-4 years now.

I know we're on HF here and that we all like prospects and stuff, but in no way does Couturier, in real life, hold more value than a proven great defensive player who gets 55-60 points every year.

Yes, Plek has a better trade value than Couturier right now.
Couturiers "potential" as you claim it, is an elite shut down center with selke capability, yet you go on to say that he would be a plekanec type player if he were to reach that potential. you're kidding me right? where is pleks selke? when have you ever heard anyone refer to plekanec as an elite shut down center besides on montreal radio? take a poll of everyone on this board prompting them who they'd rather have on their team right now, Couturier or Plekanec. go ahead.

oh and people value the 20 year old who showed tremendous potential last year over the 30 year old who already is what he is because of the potential for him to be BETTER. how are you not getting this? i feel like I'm talking in circles. do you not understand trade value? plekanec is a better player right now yes, no one is arguing that. but he's not THAT much better.his offense is more productive because he's been given those opportunities. we don't even know how couturiers offensive potential will come along, but you plainly see the hockey sense and natural talent last year playing with bottom 6 players. Plekanec has been in the league 7 years, and is 10 years older than couturier. can you seriously be so dense that you can't admit that couturier has the potential to be a better player than plekanec?


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01-08-2013, 06:21 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BernieTheGreat1 View Post
So when Gally puts up 40 points in his rookie season, we can all assume he'll top out as a 50 point player.
no because when a canadien player does it, there's obviously certain intangibles and subtle talents that the average person just isn't picking up on... 40pts = a future hart winner and much better than any of your young players.

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01-08-2013, 06:27 PM
  #116
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To answer your question, Subban has more value than Plekanec. However, that is ALSO due to us having Eller. Eller is to us the same thing that Couturier is to you. We could afford to trade Plekanec to a team for a need position because we believe Eller has the potential to be as good as Plekanec defensively, and might be able to produce more points if given better line mates than Plekanec has had over the last couple of seasons. How would we get those better line mates? Trading Plekanec, unfortunately. So, as an example, if we traded Plekanec for a package from Chicago including Saad, Jimmy Hayes, and a 1st (a deal some Hawks fans and I agreed upon in earlier trade threads), Eller could have Saad on the left (size and skill) with Gionta on the right (speed and skill) to help him produce more points. So, Subban is worth more to us for a few reasons, one of which being the same reason why Subban is worth more to us than Couturier: Eller.

No homerism, just a good understanding of team needs and asset management.
what exactly about lars eller is the same as sean couturier? he had 1 more point in 2 more games as a 22-23 year old as couturier had in his first league experience as an 18-19 year old.

i really have to question if you've watched Couturier at all if you're really drawing parallels with Lars Eller, who has 47 points in 163 NHL games. Eller could still be a decent player, but he has nowhere near the ceiling that Couturier has.

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01-08-2013, 06:35 PM
  #117
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Not a chance. Value isn't even. If Subban was traded, I would want more than Couts for him. A number 1/2 DMan still progressing is more valuable than a number 2/3center thats also progressing.
Especially with Subban's potential being one of the top d-men in the game, whereas Couturier is projected to be something more along the lines of a Kesler, in my opinion. VERY good, but not by any means a franchise player, while Subban has the potential (and is further in progression) to be a franchise d-man. He's already a #1, while Couturier, through no fault of his own, is a third liner.

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01-08-2013, 06:36 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
Couturier better then Pleks defensively ? wowwww ill agree he holds more value because of he's age and theres good chances he will become better in a few years but right now he's nowhere near Tomas offensively or defensively

And PK's value >>> Couts

U guys really watch hockey in Philly ? Geez this is embarrassing
Sums it up perfectly. Pleks is better now, and in the near future. Subban is worth tenfold what Couts is. He's more useful to our team, more developed, higher potential, etc...

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01-08-2013, 06:39 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by BernieTheGreat1 View Post
So when Gally puts up 40 points in his rookie season, we can all assume he'll top out as a 50 point player.
Talk to me once Galchenyuk has played. Until then, why are you bringing that up? I didn't even mention Galchenyuk in that post. Have never said ANYTHING about him, except far earlier in the thread when I said that his potential is a 85+ point player who is strong defensively while Couturier's potential is more like 70-80 in his peak years, while excelling defensively.

Your point is absolutely nonsensical.

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01-08-2013, 06:41 PM
  #120
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Wow, just wow. If the Flyers offered Couts for Plekanec straight up some of you would say no? That is amazing. A #1 center for the next 10 years and you'd say no. Just wow.
I never said ANYTHING about straight up, nor did anyone. We said we don't want to give up Plekanec +++++++++++ to temporarily downgrade a position that can/will be filled now and in the future by Pleks, Eller, Desharnais and Galchenyuk who all either are, or likely will be good/great top six centres. Do you know how to read? Just wow.

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01-08-2013, 06:44 PM
  #121
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Sums it up perfectly. Pleks is better now, and in the near future. Subban is worth tenfold what Couts is. He's more useful to our team, more developed, higher potential, etc...
i agree subban is worth more at this juncture, but i wouldn't say tenfold. just because a player is worth more to your team doesn't have any bearing on his league value, though id still agree that sub bans value is above couts value. i still would not trade couturier for subban. i personally just do not like his game all that much. i think he'll be a good player, but i really don't think he's going to be this elite norris winning defenseman that some seem to think. i would actually rather target Kulikov than Subban, but that's my opinion.

And there's absolutely no way you can claim that Pleks will be better "in the near future". he's 30 and probably not going to get much better than he already is.

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01-08-2013, 06:45 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by jpchabby View Post
Absolutely not. People talk about Couturier as if he were the second coming of Jesus around here... I may be exagerating but you know what I mean. People give Couturier a lot of value because of his potential, which if he reaches it would make him become a player just like Plekanec, but with a little more offense, but then again, just a little. And I'll repeat, it's a potential here, there's absolutely no guarantee that he's ever going to reach it.

If people want to look at Couturier's wingers last year to say he could have got more points than he did had he played with better players, you guys should look which wingers Plek has to play with every night. It's almost never the same, and for some reason, the coaches always put him with guys like Mathieu Darche, Travis Moen, Tom Kostopoulos (when he was here), etc. So the same argument could be made for Plekanec, for 3-4 years now.

I know we're on HF here and that we all like prospects and stuff, but in no way does Couturier, in real life, hold more value than a proven great defensive player who gets 55-60 points every year.

Yes, Plek has a better trade value than Couturier right now.
Yep, and it can be assumed that these would have been prime production years for him, given his age. Disappointing, but nothing we can do now. Couturier is about as overrated as Chris Kreider now, in my opinion.

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01-08-2013, 06:55 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Epitome of homerism. Pleks doesn't have the value coots has and its not remotely close. Subban>=Couturier value wise.. I think it's even if I HAD to place value I give Subban a slight edge... Now Habs fans who has more value Subban or Pleks? Didn't think so. Couturier has better defense now than Pleks.
Homerism is defined as using fact to defend an opinion? I told you that I'd take Plekanec over Couturier because Plekanec has peaked at 70 points in a season and excelled defensively. Couturier's potential is up around 70-80 points/season (doubt he'll reach that year in, year out) while excelling defensively. How exactly is Couturier more valuable? He's managed what? 28 points playing with poor linemates on a VERY offensive team. Plekanec just got 52 points on an awful offensive team with poor linemates. Come one, just because Couturier has a ceiling a bit above what Plekanec has done, does NOT mean he'll even come close. Plekanec nearly doubled Cout's production, with both playing a shutdown role. Prove to me that Couturier is a better player NOW than Plekanec and I'll take this back.

Everything you've said is ENTIRELY subjective; rather ironic considering you just trying to call me out for homerism. Homerism is basing opinions based on beliefs, rather than fact. Has Couturier outdone Plekanec? Nope? Oh hmm.... I'll take Plekanec.


Do not misunderstand, I think Couturier will have a great career and I wish no ill on the guy. It's the Flyers fans who HORRIBLY overrate Couturier that I have a problem with. Bloody hypocrisy.

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01-08-2013, 06:58 PM
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Yep, and it can be assumed that these would have been prime production years for him, given his age. Disappointing, but nothing we can do now. Couturier is about as overrated as Chris Kreider now, in my opinion.

inb4flamedeventhoughIstatedmyopinion.....
i just disagree. not going to flame. trying to see it from your point of view, but i do not understand. you're claiming that couturier has become overrated after 1 season because people are claiming that if he had been given better wingers his numbers would have been better, and you take issue with that. you justify it by claiming that pleks is in the same situation for years... do you not see the double standard? pleks is 30... couturier is only 20 years old. he's played in the league 1 year on the 3rd and 4th lines with no power play time. surely you can see the potential of a 20 year old who went 8th overall, and was projected to go 1st overall for a long time before his season was marred by illness. i just don't know how you can so easily discredit couturier and label him overrated because fans are excited about his potential, which is obviously great. if you really cannot admit that his potential is as a better player than plekanec then i really don't know what to say.

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01-08-2013, 06:58 PM
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CanadienShark
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
i agree subban is worth more at this juncture, but i wouldn't say tenfold. just because a player is worth more to your team doesn't have any bearing on his league value, though id still agree that sub bans value is above couts value. i still would not trade couturier for subban. i personally just do not like his game all that much. i think he'll be a good player, but i really don't think he's going to be this elite norris winning defenseman that some seem to think. i would actually rather target Kulikov than Subban, but that's my opinion.

And there's absolutely no way you can claim that Pleks will be better "in the near future". he's 30 and probably not going to get much better than he already is.
1. It was a hyperbole; it was added for dramatic effect. Subban is worth significantly more to me, and the Habs. Perhaps that's not the case with Philly. I can respect that.

2. In the near future meaning 2-3 years. Unless Couturier develops in leaps and bounds, I don't think Plekanec is anywhere near his deathbed. He'll still be producing fine for 2-3 years, right as Couturier should overtake him in terms of production.

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