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AAA 2012 Division Semis: Pittsburgh Professionals vs. Eisbaren Berlin

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Old
01-08-2013, 08:11 PM
  #26
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I'm not a fan of passing off less than 40 games as a meaningful sample when calculating team TOI ranks.

Brown played 33 games in 1982, he shouldn't get credit for being the team's #1 or the blame for them finishing third to last in goals against. Likewise I don't see why you rank him 3rd in 1983 behind 34 games of Mike O'Connell. My #1 that year was Miles Zaharko in only 42 games played so there could even be an argument to be made a #2 rank understates his contribution let alone #3.

You do make a good case for Manery though. I think he should have gotten more fanfare in the all-star votes and as I said before he seems fit for top pairing duty. I just don't at all see the translation into Brown being a second pairing guy. He was rated higher than Smith by our group so is there only one top pairing D in this series?

I'll post similar numbers with the 40 game criterion because I think it's a valuable way of making more sense of the TOI, but I'm interested in throwing in the other defensemen who ranked and the goalies as well.
Good point, I wasn't looking at the GP totals very closely when calculating those, only at the ESTOI column. I was saying that Brown was more comfortable as a 2nd pairing defenseman in real life. He's definitely a top pairing guy here, as are the other 3 in this series.

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01-08-2013, 08:34 PM
  #27
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Good point, I wasn't looking at the GP totals very closely when calculating those, only at the ESTOI column. I was saying that Brown was more comfortable as a 2nd pairing defenseman in real life. He's definitely a top pairing guy here, as are the other 3 in this series.
Oh my misunderstanding then. Manery was a pretty serious minute muncher in his career so I can see where you're coming from there.

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01-08-2013, 10:49 PM
  #28
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1981 CHI
31-33-16, 11/21 GA, 13/21 GF
Lost in Preliminary Round to Calgary in 3 games
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOIAll-Star Votes
Miles Zaharko4222.20919.0502.557 
Keith Brown8021.37818.3072.490 
Doug Wilson7623.59017.5351.789 
Bob Murray7724.28817.5332.799single vote
Greg Fox7517.64914.6682.716 
Dave Hutchinson5914.39813.3500.938  

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAAAll-Star Votes
Tony Esposito66 29-23-14.890 (.876)3.757th
Murray Bannerman152-10-2.867 (.876)4.30  


1983 CHI
47-23-10, 4/21 GA, 4/21 GF
Lost in Conference Finals to Edmonton in 4 games
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOI
Keith Brown5024.37418.8722.865
Doug Wilson7425.05518.2802.757
Doug Crossman8021.40117.3871.479
Bob Murray7922.01217.1992.440
Greg Fox7617.60215.5941.875
Dave Feamster7813.87012.9300.876

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAA
Murray Bannerman4124-12-5.901 (.875)3.10
Tony Esposito3923-11-5.887 (.875)3.46
Hawks in Hart Voting: Savard 3rd


1990 CHI
41-33-6, 14/21 GA, 5/21 GF
Lost in Conference Finals to Edmonton in 6 games
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOIAll-Star Voting
Doug Wilson7028.77620.9253.2564th
Keith Brown6723.48518.3863.598 
Dave Manon5922.43517.6632.663single vote
Steve Konroyd7519.21216.5792.548 
Bob Murray4921.07914.7762.012 
Trent Yawney7017.15413.3081.954 
Bob McGill6912.58311.9230.660  

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAA
Jacques Cloutier4318-15-2.880 (.881)3.09
Alain Chevrier3916-14-3.853 (.881)4.18
Greg Millen105-4-1.880 (.881)3.34
Jimmy Waite42-0-0.848 (.881)4.59

Brown had three years as a top-pairing defender and on fairly strong teams. Two times his team fell in the Conference Finals. He lead his '83 club in ES and PK TOI, which finished 4th in Goals Against.

1973 ATL
25-38-14, 7/16 GA, 15/16 GF
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOI
Pat Quinn7822.46619.5752.312
Randy Manery7826.06518.5343.192
Noel Price5422.39918.0112.154
Noel Picard4117.90117.4420.198
Bob Paradise7118.76917.0901.679
Bill Plager7617.81915.9801.691
Kerry Ketter4113.22912.5720.395

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAAAll-Star Voting
Phil Myre4616-23-5.902 (.896)3.03single vote
Dan Bouchard349-15-10.907 (.896)3.08single vote
Flames in Hart Voting: Myre single vote


1974 ATL
30-34-14, 6/16 GA, 13/16 GF
Lost in Quarter-Finals to Philadelphia in 4 games
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOI
Randy Manery7828.64822.3052.704
Pat Quinn7723.80721.6092.075
Noel Price6223.22920.9761.953
Arnie Brown4820.45220.0170.435
Bob J Murray6216.87015.9160.804

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAAAll-Star Voting
Dan Bouchard4619-18-8.909 (.896)2.775th
Phil Myre3611-16-6.889 (.896)3.33  


1975 ATL
34-31-15, 5/18 GA , 14/18 GF
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOI
Pat Quinn8022.86719.9612.810
Randy Manery6823.30119.1992.207
Jean Lemieux7520.07017.6480.385
Noel Price8019.64917.1701.904
Ed Kea5018.27917.1490.834

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAA
Dan Bouchard4020-15-5.914 (.890)2.78
Phil Myre4014-16-10.909 (.890)2.85


1978 LAK
31-34-15, 8/18 GA, 8/18 GF
Lost in Preliminary Round to Toronto in 2 games
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOIAll-Star Voting
Gary Sargent7228.90722.3382.26212th
Randy Manery7925.33921.6981.584 
Bob Murdoch7623.83021.0632.564 
Dave Hutchinson4420.26119.4180.843 
Larry Brown5719.26616.8701.999 
Rob Palmer4812.71912.2530.312  

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAAAll-Star Voting
Rogie Vachon7029-27-13.891 (.889)2.864th
Gary Simmons142-7-2.869 (.889)3.81  

Manery had 4 seasons he was a top pairing defender. The first three came courtesy of the expansion Flames who joined the league in '73. These teams weren't very good overall, but they performed well defensively. Manery was 1st or 2nd in PK TOI ranks during those three years as well. Manery's goalies earned the most all-star recognition of this group.

1973 CFS
16-46-16, 14/16 GA, 14/16 GF
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOIAll-Star Voting
Rick Smith6428.52822.1232.697 
Bob Stewart6324.77722.0862.540 
Darryl Maggs5424.36121.7371.237 
Ted McAneely7715.65214.6110.326  

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAAAll-Star Voting
Gilles Meloche5912-32-14.885 (.896)4.06T11th (2 voting points)
Marv Edwards214-14-2.873 (.896)4.32  


1977 BOS
49-23-8, 5/18 GA, 3/18 GF
Lost in Stanley Cup Finals to Montreal in 4 games
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOIAll-Star Voting
Brad Park7730.06322.4973.7326th
Rick Smith4623.46621.3311.989 
Dallas Smith5823.64721.2622.147 
Mike Milbury7721.21218.6352.212 
Gary Doak7619.98718.4961.399  

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAAAll-Star Voting
Gerry Cheevers4530-10-5.882 (.891)3.04T5th
Gilles Gilbert3418-13-1.884 (.891)2.85 
Jim Pettie11-0-0.900 (.891)3.00
Bruins in Hart Voting: Ratelle 8th


1979 BOS
43-23-14, 6/17 GA, 4/17 GF
Lost in semi-finals vs Montreal in 7 games
 GPTOIES TOIPK TOIAll-Star Voting
Mike Milbury7423.76620.0902.937 
Brad Park4024.51818.9711.3188th
Rick Smith6520.21918.9481.271 
Gary Doak6319.67518.3360.959 
Dennis O'Brien6420.39618.1532.149 
Al Sims6722.07517.4223.215 
Dick Redmond6419.03613.9271.547  

 GPRecordSV% (Average)GAAAll-Star Voting
Cheevers4323-9-10.865 (.883)3.166th
Gilbert2312-8-2.869 (.883)3.54 
Pettie198-6-2.856 (.883)3.59  
Bruins in Hart Voting: Brad Park single vote

Smith had three years as a top pairing defender. With how close the gap between #2 and #3 are in '79 I feel comfortable throwing it on the list. Like Brown, Smith enjoyed greater team success than Manery despite the fewer minutes played/times as a top pairing defender. Minus his one year with the brutal Seals. Smith was also the only player here to make the Stanley Cup finals as a top pairing guy.

I guess my takeaway from this is, if we're going to knock Brown for a lack of years as a top-pairing defender it only seems fair to do the same for Smith. Manery really does stand above the two in his TOI usage, but considering it was on an expansion club in the seventies, is it really unfair to prefer Smith and Brown to him?

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01-09-2013, 12:45 AM
  #29
seventieslord
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I prefer Smith and Brown to Manery. The more I looked at Manery, the more he kept getting dropped below other guys. Dreakmur agreed after I showed him a summary of some available guys TOI profiles (GP, ATOI, team strength)

I also recall while studying Gibbs, that Manery never placed ahead of an ATD caliber defenseman in TOI, ever.

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01-09-2013, 01:52 PM
  #30
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Tom Reid
'68 CHI 56 GP - 12.634, 2.085 PK / 5
'70 MIN 66 GP - 23.283, 0.215 PP, 1.426 PK / 3
'71 MIN 73 GP - 25.367, .600 PP, 2.496 PK / 2
'72 MIN 78 GP - 25.649, 0.765 PP, 2.594 PK / 2/3
'73 MIN 60 GP - 24.259, 0.501 PP, 1.826 PK / 1/2
'74 MIN 76 GP - 25.296, 0.343 PP, 3.264 PK / 2
'75 MIN 74 GP - 23.827, 0.140 PP, 3.069 PK / 2
'76 MIN 69 GP - 22.769, 3.204 PP, 2.925 PK / 4
'77 MIN 65 GP - 22.190, 0.545 PP, 2.556 PK / 4
Weighted TOI Average: 14981.932 / 653 GP = 22.943 minutes per game
ES TOI Team Ranks: 1/2, 2, 2, 2, 2/3, 3, 4, 4, 5

Philippe Boucher
'96 LAK 53 GP - 20.628, 3.796 PP, 1.923 PK / 5
'97 LAK 60 GP - 21.044, 2.746 PP, 1.680 PK / 3
'98 LAK 45 GP - 18.390, 2.340 PP, 1.190 PK / 4
'99 LAK 45 GP - 17.840, 2.410 PP, 0.530 PK / 5
'02 LAK 80 GP - 21.590, 2.880, 2.240 PK / 3
'03 DAL 80 GP - 20.490, 1.880 PP, 2.480 PK / 3
'04 DAL 70 GP - 22.410, 2.160 PP, 2.680 PK / 2
'06 DAL 66 GP - 23.410, 4.770 PP, 4.050 PK / 2

'07 DAL 76 GP - 22:53, 4:05 PP, 3:01 PK / 3 1,740:20
Weighted TOI Averages: 15476.544 / 748 = 20.691 minutes per game
ES TOI Team Ranks: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5

Getting a feel for how these pairs compare is more difficult. I like Lamoureux and his all-star record is very appealing at this level, but it does seem bothersome that his career coincided with the war years. His 3 seasons of all-star votes were '44, '45, and '46.

Levinsky I'm even less sold on. Nice that he part of two cup winners like Lamoureux, but I have no idea how important he was to those teams. He has great longevity for his era and received a single all-star vote once but that's all I've got. If he had some anecdotal support, like I found for Bowman, that would help clear things up.

Boucher's a much more known commodity. He showed up in all-star voting once placing 14th in 2007 when he scored 19 goals. I think he rose to a level of defensive responsibility in his Dallas days, PKing under Tippet, that gives him an advantage over the Berards of this draft.

I think Reid or Lamoureux are probably the best defender of this group. Based on the war years, I think a case can be made for Reid. Reid had basically no offensive game, but his defense was good enough to tie for 10th place in 72's all-star voting. He averaged more estimated TOI over his career than Brown or Smith and essentially never saw a powerplay in his career. I don't think many other defense-only guys can claim a similar voting record, even with it being just one season.

Lamoureux brings good offense without sacrificing defense and brings a physical game. Levinsky seems to be a conservative type who could skate and hit. You definitely have the physical edge here. Boucher is my best offensive defender mentioned thus far and is on Manery's level PP-wise. I think his defense is passable here as well. Reid is there to shore that up and while he isn't going to wow anyone with the puck on his stick, I think he and Boucher fit each other very well.

I want to claim an advantage here, but doing so is mostly because I'm not sold on Levinsky. I like Reid here a lot. I was very high on Lamoureux coming into the draft but the war year concern does loom. I still think he's better than Boucher, but I'm sort of giving him the benefit of the doubt and putting a lot of stock in war year all-star votes in doing so. I mean his career basically started and ended when the war years did. I'm less willing to do the same with Levinsky until I learn more. Unless Levinsky was more than a role player on those teams I see the edge of Reid over him as the swing in Pittsburgh's favor here.

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01-09-2013, 04:15 PM
  #31
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I want to claim an advantage here, but doing so is mostly because I'm not sold on Levinsky. I like Reid here a lot. I was very high on Lamoureux coming into the draft but the war year concern does loom. I still think he's better than Boucher, but I'm sort of giving him the benefit of the doubt and putting a lot of stock in war year all-star votes in doing so. I mean his career basically started and ended when the war years did. I'm less willing to do the same with Levinsky until I learn more. Unless Levinsky was more than a role player on those teams I see the edge of Reid over him as the swing in Pittsburgh's favor here.
Reid impresses me. He lugged a decent amount of ice time for being a non-factor offensively. Here's what I've got in Levinsky:

-Known mostly as a stay at home defenseman that had good skating ability. Despite being known as a stay at home defenseman, he finished 11th, 6th, and 14th in scoring among defensemen. It's nothing tremendous considering there weren't that many regular defenseman, but the fact that he was known as a stay at home defenseman, but still put up solid point totals, says something.

-He played 8 straight seasons in a league with 8 or 9 teams who had probably 4 regular defensemen. For 8 straight seasons, he was a top 32 defenseman in the world, and he wasn't near the worst in the league.

-Played for two Cup winning teams, playing likely as the #4 defenseman(behind Horner, Day[his partner] and Clancy) for the '31-32 Leafs and was probably the #3 defenseman(behind Seibert and Wiebe) for the '37-38 Blackhawks who won the cup.

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01-09-2013, 05:14 PM
  #32
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Despite being known as a stay at home defenseman, he finished 11th, 6th, and 14th in scoring among defensemen. It's nothing tremendous considering there weren't that many regular defenseman, but the fact that he was known as a stay at home defenseman, but still put up solid point totals, says something.
14th is barely top half if there are 24 regular defensemen, and 11th is certainly nothing that noteworthy. what percentage of the leader did he have?

The 6th is solid though.

Quote:
-He played 8 straight seasons in a league with 8 or 9 teams who had probably 4 regular defensemen. For 8 straight seasons, he was a top 32 defenseman in the world, and he wasn't near the worst in the league.
He actually might have been close.

I took a look at the 1932 season, and taking age and GP into consideration (so I was sure to exclude partial GP, too young, too old players), I count 23 defensemen better than him out of the 32 in the NHL. I have no idea about the other seasons of his career - the ratios should be about the same though.

I’m not trying to cut him down; he’s in a tier of a bunch of guys with 6-9 NHL seasons in the exclusive O6 era (he may have had an advantage due to there being 32 spots instead of the 24 it would later be) and all I’ve really concluded is that Godfrey, Douglas and Hamilton are 1-2-3 in that order. Therefore he belongs, and the key is lasting as long as he did, when he did. But with all that said, we really are at the point of picking players who were, in the context of that 1930-1967 NHL, below average.


Last edited by seventieslord: 01-10-2013 at 10:20 AM.
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01-09-2013, 05:17 PM
  #33
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just wanted to mention that I added a bit to last night's point.

*note that all these players are wingers. Center is much, much deeper and standards should be stricter. We should avoid pointing out the validity of our centers by saying “look at all these wingers he’s better than!”

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01-10-2013, 05:18 AM
  #34
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I'm not too sure how to compare these goalies, but I see Puppa with a conclusive edge. He was voted the second best goalie behind Martin on our first all-star team. I don't think he's certainly better than Winkler or Robertson, but I wouldn't say Collins was robbed either. I view this as the biggest difference between our teams.

It seems like Collins's appeal rests mostly on his longevity. Collins played 7 seasons which is impressive, but not unheard of. Frank Stocking played 8 seasons with Quebec during the same period. Collins's GAA ranks are solid, but his final season was 1900. I'm not particularly convinced by cases based on GAA for goalies this far back either or I'd argue Riley Hern was better than Percy LeSueur and that was 7 years later.

Collin's GAA Ranks
'93 4.3 GAA (3/5)
'94 1.9 GAA (1/5)
'95 2.7 GAA (2/5) #1 only played 4 GP
'96 4.1 GAA (5/5)
'97 3.3 GAA (T2/5)
'98 2.6 GAA (1/5)
'99 3.2 GAA (2/5)

His career was over 6 years before guys like Henri Menard, Dave Finnie, and Billy Hague were winning the Stanley Cup as the goalies of other strong clubs. His Stanley Cup in 1895 was essentially a sham as well, 1894 was earned however.

1894 ended with a 4-way tie (out of 5 teams!) between Montreal AAA, the Vics, Ottawa and Quebec. Quebec withdrew from the playoffs after disagreeing on where the games should be played, leaving MAAA to play the Vics and Ottawa receiving a bye. MAAA won 2-1 win over the Vics and 3-1 win over Ottawa to clinch the league subsequently earning the Stanley Cup as winners of the AHAC. This is the pinnacle of Collin's career to me.

I have serious problems with 1895 however. It ended with MAAA tying for second in the league. During the Stanley Cup challenge era you had to win your league to challenge for the Cup and if you were the Cup holder who lost their league championship then you lost the Cup with it. Despite this precedent, the Cup trustees ruled that because they scheduled MAAA to play in the Stanley Cup before the close of the AHAC season that MAAA should still challenge for the Cup. The kicker was that if they won, it would be award to the Vics who actually won the AHAC that year and that's exactly what happened as MAAA was pitted against a sub-standard Queens University club.

I guess you could call that a playoff win compared to Paton's MAAA club being handed the Stanley Cup at the end of the 1893 AHAC regular season, but he's literally the only goalie in history you can make that comparison for. 1893 was the first year the Cup was awarded and every other season afterwards was part of the challenge era where you had a "playoff" like 1895. 1894's defeat of the Vics before the Ottawa is more of what I consider the playoffs as opposed to the Stanley Cup finals.

Why I called Queen's University sub-standard:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail of the Stanley Cup Vol. 1
The college boys, although described as looking very fierce in their tiger jerseys, were no match for the fast Montrealers and the game proved uninteresting.
When you consider that Collins was playing behind James Stewart and Allan Cameron in 1984, and Allan Cameron in 1895 you have even more reason to question how valuable Collins was to his team's success. We shouldn't be calling Collins a two-time Stanley Cup winner and I don't see one Stanley Cup win from a goalie with very good, but not unmatched, longevity from a pretty weak era as anything too special at this level.


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 01-10-2013 at 05:25 AM.
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01-10-2013, 08:34 AM
  #35
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Not to mention the hockey net wasn't invented until 1899. Before then, the goal was simply two metal polls with no top (but a ref would call off shots that were too high).

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01-10-2013, 09:35 AM
  #36
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Not to mention the hockey net wasn't invented until 1899. Before then, the goal was simply two metal polls with no top (but a ref would call off shots that were too high).
Frank Stocking just came full circle.

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01-10-2013, 10:23 AM
  #37
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Frank Stocking had awful, horrible stats. Longevity, sure. But I'd never select him, and I've gone all the way to pick 2100.

Collins is just fine for this level.

And TBH, I'm not feeling the Puppa love like a lot of other people were. He was about 15th on my list heading into this thing. I sure wasn't thinking "if we can't trade up for Martin, for the love of god, we better get Puppa!"

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01-10-2013, 10:47 AM
  #38
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Frank Stocking had awful, horrible stats. Longevity, sure. But I'd never select him, and I've gone all the way to pick 2100.

Collins is just fine for this level.

And TBH, I'm not feeling the Puppa love like a lot of other people were. He was about 15th on my list heading into this thing. I sure wasn't thinking "if we can't trade up for Martin, for the love of god, we better get Puppa!"
Honestly, I like the two quotes about Collins more than his GAA numbers. I think it's just very hard to distinguish goalies from their teams this early and I wouldn't expect any goalie to lift a crappy team. Collins didn't do anything special with the Crystals and then won his league once after that playing behind James Stewart and Allan Cameron.

We like Collins here because he posted good GAA numbers against no competition in the earliest era and won one Stanley Cup? I really don't see the appeal, outside of one quote calling him the best goalie in the game in 1896.

You've been vocal about your Puppa doubts, but I'll take his resume in a much deeper era even if he was no playoff hero. He was a second-team all-star and should have gotten another award in 1996. Despite how well he was regarded by the group, I imagine his playoff resume getting me in trouble at a point, but Herbert Collins isn't that point. He won one Cup with a dynasty club and then had to give his second away immediately after "winning" it against Queen's University.

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01-10-2013, 02:40 PM
  #39
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I owned Puppa before and think he's a good starter here, but not on the first all star team. He's got 2 great years, but little besides that and a mediocre playoff resume. I don't think the difference is as big as you make it seem. Admittedly, I picked Collins just because I needed a goalie and everyone else seemed largely unimpressive so I don't think he's anything special.

Back to Levinsky, from consolidation to 1945-46(when the NHL schedule ranged from 44-50 games before expanding to 60 and 70 in the years right after 45-46), there were 30 defensemen in the NHL to play at least 300 games. 28 of them were taken in the ATD, 9 were taken in the MLD, 2 were taken in the AAA Draft(Reg Hamilton and Levinsky), and 1 is still undrafted. Offensively, Levinsky is 26th in PPG and total points among those 30. Not great offense, but considering he was known as a stay at home defenseman and we're in the AAA draft, the fact that he's not last is good. It may look like this stat is cherrypicked, but it's the largest time period where players are created basically equal in terms of games they could have played.

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01-14-2013, 12:00 AM
  #40
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And your winner is......

Pittsburgh in 7 games!


Three Stars:

1st: Earl Robinson
2nd and 3rd stars (all tied in points somehow): Mac Colville, Geoff Sanderson, Olli Jokinen, Darren Puppa, Herbert Collins

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01-14-2013, 12:23 AM
  #41
Rob Scuderi
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I figured this was one of the close series Vecens alluded to, certainly deserved to be one. Great work here Billy, I had a lot of fun with the debates. Hopefully we get another chance in the near future.

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01-14-2013, 12:46 AM
  #42
BillyShoe1721
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Well done. Two very evenly matched teams. Nice to have an opponent who provides a rational, quality argument. No qualms about losing to a team like this.

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01-14-2013, 11:40 AM
  #43
seventieslord
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This was the best series of the AAA draft.

I hope to give Pittsburgh an even better one, but we have lots to live up to here.

Billy, to be perfectly honest, I had you 4th in this division but I would have had you 1st if you were in the other division.

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01-14-2013, 03:22 PM
  #44
TheDevilMadeMe
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These were too excellent and well-balanced teams, but the more I read about the state of goaltending before 1900, the less it impresses me. Goals with crossbars weren't even invented until 1899! Before then, there were upright polls with an imaginary line at a certain height and the ref acted like an umpire in baseball in calling when the puck went to high to be a goal! And I also saw Billy basically offer no rebuttal to BBS's criticism of Collins.

So with two teams that are otherwise excellent, I went with the more proven goaltender and significantly better coaching.

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01-14-2013, 03:30 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
These were too excellent and well-balanced teams, but the more I read about the state of goaltending before 1900, the less it impresses me. Goals with crossbars weren't even invented until 1899! Before then, there were upright polls with an imaginary line at a certain height and the ref acted like an umpire in baseball in calling when the puck went to high to be a goal! And I also saw Billy basically offer no rebuttal to BBS's criticism of Collins.

So with two teams that are otherwise excellent, I went with the more proven goaltender and significantly better coaching.
level of competition and degre of dominance need to be considered though.

We're talking about whether Collins is, approximately, the best 100th goalie of all-time. He's the best post-Paton, pre-Hern/Hutton/Nicholson/Moran goaltender (if you see another candidate please let me know). There's no room for a guy with that credential over guys who were 10th-15th best of their generations?

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