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Old
01-08-2013, 09:43 PM
  #501
NyQuil
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I don't mind a big signing, but I'm curious as to who the target is.

If no one stands out, there's no point throwing money around for the sake of doing it.

Once Alfie is gone, there will be a hole in the top 6.

Maybe this summer?

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01-08-2013, 09:47 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Ok...but who is this magic player that we should bring in that would make that difference?

Eugene already gave BM the green light to go after Nash...what more proof do you need that the money will be available for the right move?
Our budget should become much clearer in offseason 2013, or perhaps sooner if teams want to get below the cap early. That'll be the real test.

Here are some wingers we could have signed last summer:

Jagr, Whitney, Parise, Penner, Parenteau, Hudler, Kulemin, Kostitsyn, Doan, etc.

Not to mention, we could have kept Foligno and re-signed Kuba (or any other dman). The move to trade Foligno for Methot was a budget move first and foremost. That trade was inexcusable IMO.

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01-08-2013, 09:49 PM
  #503
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I want chris stewart!

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01-08-2013, 09:56 PM
  #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by source View Post
Our budget should become much clearer in offseason 2013, or perhaps sooner if teams want to get below the cap early. That'll be the real test.

Here are some wingers we could have signed last summer:

Jagr, Whitney, Parise, Penner, Parenteau, Hudler, Kulemin, Kostitsyn, Doan, etc.

Not to mention, we could have kept Foligno and re-signed Kuba (or any other dman). The move to trade Foligno for Methot was a budget move first and foremost. That trade was inexcusable IMO.
I'm a huge Foligno fan but come on, he was expandable! We needed help on D and have quite a few forwards in the pipeline. Silfverburg will probably equal or surpass his production.

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01-08-2013, 10:00 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Karl Cowensson View Post
I'm a huge Foligno fan but come on, he was expandable! We needed help on D and have quite a few forwards in the pipeline. Silfverburg will probably equal or surpass his production.
Or we could have kept Foligno, not re-signed Daugavins, and either kept Kuba or signed any other defenseman superior to Methot. That would have cost an extra 4-5 mil though.

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01-08-2013, 10:00 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Fel 96 View Post
Alright, thanks for the info.

He definitely can't catch a break.
On the contrary, he caught a break.

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01-08-2013, 10:11 PM
  #507
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Technically we signed Latendresse in the off-season.

We picked up Methot and Lundin.

It's not as if the Murrays have been standing pat.

A lot of the guys in your list (Doan, Parise) were not going to come here, and a lot of the others are on their last legs in the NHL.

I guess I don't see the huge deal.

I liked Foligno but I didn't see him progress all that much last season. We have a lot of good prospects in the system and depth at forward.

I guess I don't see the big catastrophe.

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01-08-2013, 11:15 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Technically we signed Latendresse in the off-season.

We picked up Methot and Lundin.

It's not as if the Murrays have been standing pat.

A lot of the guys in your list (Doan, Parise) were not going to come here, and a lot of the others are on their last legs in the NHL.

I guess I don't see the huge deal.

I liked Foligno but I didn't see him progress all that much last season. We have a lot of good prospects in the system and depth at forward.

I guess I don't see the big catastrophe.
There isn't one.

The team out performed just about everyone's expectations last year. However a sample size of one does not suggest the timing is right to break the bank unless it is believed there will be an exponential gain.

Stall, Weber, Parise, Suter are a few that might fit the criteria of a building team like the Sens. However teams in transition have to over pay and/or have some other attraction to the city.

Minny, Suter, wife is from Minny - cost $98M,13 years
Minny, Parise, family lives in city - cost $98M, 13 years
Carolina, Jordon Staal, brother Erik - cost $60M, 10 years
Nashville, Weber, Philly offer matched - cost $110M, 14 years

I wonder what Murray would have had to offer to get any of these players to Ottawa?

The cost of attracting young top talent is prohibitive and comes with no guarantees. All four teams in the above examples lost money before these signings, this is not smart business.

There is no upside for the fans if the owner get in financial trouble, the result can only be higher prices, a fire sale of players or the threat of relocation.

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01-08-2013, 11:26 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by source View Post
In what way is it a bad idea to make a big signing?

The question should be about the amount of $$ spent on improving the team, but we are not spending very much at all, no sir.
We aren't that attractive to top free agents because we are entering year two of a rebuild, and we've got a boat load of young talent about to break into the NHL.

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01-08-2013, 11:54 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by source View Post
Our budget should become much clearer in offseason 2013, or perhaps sooner if teams want to get below the cap early. That'll be the real test.

Here are some wingers we could have signed last summer:

Jagr, Whitney, Parise, Penner, Parenteau, Hudler, Kulemin, Kostitsyn, Doan, etc.

Not to mention, we could have kept Foligno and re-signed Kuba (or any other dman). The move to trade Foligno for Methot was a budget move first and foremost. That trade was inexcusable IMO.
You got to understand that in this cap world that most teams could offer the same contracts and the players descion usually ends up being family related, personal and city related, sometimes it is who offer the most bucks but mostly there are more things that go into a player signing with a team.


Jagr- Age a big issue, and only wanted to play for a select few teams.

Whitney- See above.

Parise- LOL it wasn't a money issue, more where he wanted to play, unless Parise was born in Ottawa we didn't have a chance.

Penner- Did he even make it to UFA? Why would he leave a beautiful sunny city and a championship team for the same money in a media pressured cold Canadian city?

Paranteau- They did make a bid for him, He chose Colorado.

Hurdler/Kulumen are garbage overpaid players.

Kostisen- LOL

Doan- Do I really have to answer this?

LOL at thinking the Foligno trade was a budget move, you only have to listen to this morning's McLean interview, he was expendable with this organizations depth at forward, they thought they have players that can replace his production, plus it was a trade from a position of strength to address a need. There were no money issues related to it, that contract is fair for Foligno when he's playing top 6 for Colombus but would look stupid here when he's on the 3rd line and getting paid $3M(kind of like Philips now)

If there were budget and money issues we wouldn't have committed long term to Turris and Karlsson for 5-7 years and go hard after Rick Nash.

This is a non issue and you are just reaching here, you don't just spend money just for the sake of spending it, thats how the Kovalev and Gonchar contracts turn into, especially when you have prospects who need spots and ice time to develop, instead of an overpaid 39 year old.

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Old
01-09-2013, 12:23 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
We aren't that attractive to top free agents because we are entering year two of a rebuild, and we've got a boat load of young talent about to break into the NHL.
That and the fact that Ottawa is not exactly the city most players dream about playing in when there are teams in New York, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles etc.

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01-09-2013, 10:38 AM
  #512
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Wiercioch will definitely get a long look if not a full time spot on the blueline. I'm especially excited to see Turris now after reading this:

Quote:
SensProspects ‏@SensProspects
Wiercioch and Turris were put on a very similar workout plan targeting muscle strength and development. They bulked up about 15 pounds.

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01-09-2013, 10:48 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by SelleckStache View Post
With this D, there is likely going to be some riculously high shot counts against. It's a good thing we have 3 goalies that seem to perform well in this scenario. IF there's any stumble out of the gates by Anderson, I wouldn't be surprised if Lehner gets the starts as he's been playing the most.
I'm not sure... Karlsson and Gonchar are better offensively than defensively, but Phillips, Methot, Borowiecki, Lundin are more in the NHL for their defensive game...

It can't be worse than with Kuba, Lee, Gilroy and Carkner... seriously think of it

I don't see the problem with defense at the exception of Cowen missing the season, which is a huge huge blow.

Karlsson = Karlsson
Gonchar = Gonchar

Kuba replaced by Methot
Cowen replaced by ???

Phillips = Phillips
Carkner replaced by by Borowiecki
Lee/Gilroy replaced by Lundin


We lost some offense in the Kuba-Methot swap but gained physical play, skating and potentially defense IMO
We lost some toughness in the Carkner-Borowiecki swap but gained mobility/skating and youth (Carkner was becoming very slow) IMO
We have no idea what we gained in the Lee/Gilroy-Wiercioch swap but we will probably gain something with the potential of being an upgrade
We lost Cowen... ... replaced by Wiercioch?

In conclusion, the worries should be more directed at the offensive side of things, will Wiercioch contribute and be able to replace some of Kuba's production?

Note : Kuba has done well for the Sens (except 2010-11) but it was time to let him go, he is now 35 y/o and a 2-3 years contract wouldn't fit the actual Sens rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by source View Post
Our budget should become much clearer in offseason 2013, or perhaps sooner if teams want to get below the cap early. That'll be the real test.

Here are some wingers we could have signed last summer:

Jagr, Whitney, Parise, Penner, Parenteau, Hudler, Kulemin, Kostitsyn, Doan, etc.

Not to mention, we could have kept Foligno and re-signed Kuba (or any other dman). The move to trade Foligno for Methot was a budget move first and foremost. That trade was inexcusable IMO.
inexcusable? lol wtf?

Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
Dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need
...

We have tons of forward prospects that will be as good or better than Foligno

Also, you can be sure that Murray tried to sign a few of those forwards, but Ottawa isn't exactly a priority destination for most NHL players... That's just the reality : winter, taxes, not a big city, etc. We were outbid by money and other factors

That's why Murray's priority has always been scouting, drafting and developping

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Granny View Post
LOL at thinking the Foligno trade was a budget move, you only have to listen to this morning's McLean interview, he was expendable with this organizations depth at forward, they thought they have players that can replace his production, plus it was a trade from a position of strength to address a need. There were no money issues related to it, that contract is fair for Foligno when he's playing top 6 for Colombus but would look stupid here when he's on the 3rd line and getting paid $3M(kind of like Philips now).
Except that Phillips was 6th in ice-time (4th D) among ALL Sens players last year... Excuse me, but I don't see the stupidity there...

19 pts (5 goals, most were very important), + 12, great job on the PK... lifetime Senator, what's not to like about Chris Phillips? The guy deserve his salary... He never cost an arm and a leg to the Sens, we have cap space. I am happy for him and his family that he isn't underpaid (compared to NHLers of course).


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01-09-2013, 11:26 AM
  #514
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Originally Posted by SixthSens View Post
Wiercioch will definitely get a long look if not a full time spot on the blueline. I'm especially excited to see Turris now after reading this:
Interesting. I was quite honestly shocked at how horribly skinny Turris looked last year in a post-game interview. He looked more like a street bum squeegee kid than a pro athlete.

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01-09-2013, 02:18 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
...
The trade was a "second best" solution, in light of the fact Melnyk wanted to save money.

Just because we have some nice young forwards doesn't mean we should have traded an established 2nd line forward for a bottom-pairing dman, especially when we could have kept Foligno, dumped Daugavins, and filled the need for another dman through UFA.

But sure, convince yourself that the trade was the best option we had to improve the team. It wasn't, but it made sense from a dollars perspective. Very simple.

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01-09-2013, 02:40 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by source View Post
The trade was a "second best" solution, in light of the fact Melnyk wanted to save money.

Just because we have some nice young forwards doesn't mean we should have traded an established 2nd line forward for a bottom-pairing dman, especially when we could have kept Foligno, dumped Daugavins, and filled the need for another dman through UFA.

But sure, convince yourself that the trade was the best option we had to improve the team. It wasn't, but it made sense from a dollars perspective. Very simple.
If you think Foligno is an established 2nd liner, and Methot is a bottom pairing dman, then yeah the deal looks awful.

If you think of Foligno as a 3rd line center, and Methot as a # 2-3 dman, it looks great.

The reality probably lies somewhere in between; good to ok value for both teams.

The problem is, you can't rely on signing a ufa dman. If you do, it can come back and bit you when no one decides to sign with you. Trading Foligno for Methot may not have been the best option, but it was one of the safer ones.


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01-09-2013, 03:21 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by General Granny View Post

Hurdler/Kulumen are garbage overpaid players.

Kostisen- LOL
good job.

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01-09-2013, 03:50 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
If you think Foligno is an established 2nd liner, and Methot is a bottom pairing dman, then yeah the deal looks awful.

If you think of Foligno as a 3rd line center, and Methot as a # 2-3 dman, it looks great.

The reality probably lies somewhere in between; good to ok value for both teams.

The problem is, you can't rely on signing a ufa dman. If you do, it can come back and bit you when no one decides to sign with you. Trading Foligno for Methot may not have been the best option, but it was one of the safer ones.
Foligno, statistically speaking, is a top 6 winger.

Defensemen with Methot's offensive abilities need to be extra special on defense to be considered top4. Not sure he is that great defensively, but we'll see.

IMO the move is a step backwards for the team. I look forward to seeing how things play out this season and in the coming offseason. It'll be especially interesting to see how Murray navigates the goaltending situation in light of our glaring need for a top6er and top-pairing dman.

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01-09-2013, 03:51 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by source View Post
The trade was a "second best" solution, in light of the fact Melnyk wanted to save money.

Just because we have some nice young forwards doesn't mean we should have traded an established 2nd line forward for a bottom-pairing dman, especially when we could have kept Foligno, dumped Daugavins, and filled the need for another dman through UFA.

But sure, convince yourself that the trade was the best option we had to improve the team. It wasn't, but it made sense from a dollars perspective. Very simple.
I never ever said that the trade was the BEST option... You really need to put words into people's mouth to help your argumentation? lol

I said that it was a "hockey trade", like most trades are. We simply dealt from a position of strenght to fill a position of need... that's it, that's all, very simple like you say.

Marc Methot is young (just a few years older than Foligno), has size and plays a solid physical defensive game. He is a more mobile version of Volchenkov but doesn't come with the highlight reel hits.

Like someone else said, Sens management didn't envision Foligno to play in our top 6 in the future, so instead of paying him over 3.0 to play on the 3rd line, they used him to get a piece they thought was needed on their defensive squad.

Random HF fans see things linear and base themselves on stats while real life managers are more trying to find the right recipe for their team... You have to understand that.

Spezza, Michalek, Turris, Alfredsson, Silfverberg, Latendresse and soon Zibanejad, Stone, Da Costa?, Noesen?, Puempel?, Petersson?, Prince? and even Peter Regin will be options for the Sens in the top-6 instead of Nick Foligno and I'm perfectly fine with that

Also, red Micklebot answer... makes sense

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01-09-2013, 05:55 PM
  #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by source View Post
Foligno, statistically speaking, is a top 6 winger.
Last yes, career... not so much. Great 3rd liner, fringe 2nd liner.

Quote:
Defensemen with Methot's offensive abilities need to be extra special on defense to be considered top4. Not sure he is that great defensively, but we'll see.
His ES TOI/G has been top 4 on his team for the last 3 years. That's were the pairings are made, and how top 4 is generally determined (ie not by PK or PP toi)

Even this year, he was in the top 4 ES TOI despite Clb picking up 2 top 4 dmen. He likely would have been tough to stay in the top 4 as they have a log jam, but that doesn't mean he isn't a top 4 quality guy.

Quote:
IMO the move is a step backwards for the team. I look forward to seeing how things play out this season and in the coming offseason. It'll be especially interesting to see how Murray navigates the goaltending situation in light of our glaring need for a top6er and top-pairing dman.
Time will tell, but the reality is we have prospects in the system who look capable to replace Foligno long term, we picked up Latendresse who if finally healthy is an upgrade on Foligno, and we have Regin who if health looks capable of matching what Foligno did (upgrade defensively, might be capable to match offence from last season).

The synopsis is; Foligno was replaceable. Methot is too. Neither one will have a tremendous impact on the team, but there was a greater need for a player like Methot, made all the more evident now that Cowen and Lundin are injured.


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01-09-2013, 09:15 PM
  #521
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Jason Spezza for Mikael Granlund, Johan Larsson and Jonas Brodin


Sergei Gonchar and Guillaume Latendresse for Olli Maatta and Ben Lovejoy


Ben Bishop for NYI 3rd in 2013





Regin - Turris - Alfredsson
Greening - Granlund - Silfverberg
Hoffman - Smith - Condra
Daugavins - O'Brien - Neil
Winchester

Methot - Karlsson
Phillips - Wiercioch
Borowiecki - Lundin
Lovejoy

Lehner
Anderson

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01-09-2013, 09:18 PM
  #522
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^ What a great team.

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01-09-2013, 09:22 PM
  #523
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^ What a great team.
yep. And Michalek has mysteriously vanished off the face of the earth

oops

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01-09-2013, 09:28 PM
  #524
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^ What a great team.
For the AHL?

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01-09-2013, 09:33 PM
  #525
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For the AHL?
You gotta get worse before you get better... unless you're the Boston Bruins and you draft elite players in the 2nd round.

Let's go Lehner and Silf

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