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2013 "Top it" trade thread

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Old
01-08-2013, 12:19 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Setoguchi has had a 20+ goal pace since entering the league, he's not a reclamation project.
He might not be as bad a reclamation project as guys like Latendresse and Kulemin, but he is an underachiever. He doesn't produce way more than Dupuis and he doesn't bring the other things Dupuis brings to the table. Why waste assets on a guy that isn't really an upgrade? Because he has potential? Hell, you can sign underachiever with potential every year, no need to waste assets on them, especially not usefull assets like Niskanen. Our defense is thin and Niskanen looks good in our system.

We need to find Sid his "Neal", not feed him another average guy. Bennett could be that guy, I prefer giving him a shot than trading for Kulemin or Setoguchi.

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01-08-2013, 12:29 AM
  #52
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"Crosby's Neal." i thought it was a well-defined concept but it looks like it's eroded over time to mean anybody acquired to play with Crosby. the term means more than just a competent top six winger. it even means more than a talent top six winger. i'd argue that Setoguchi is as close to the realization of the concept as you can get. an under-preforming and thus undervalued finisher who is also competent forechecker, who has consistently flashed his skill and on occasion has "put it all together." that was Neal before the trade and that's Seto now.

Bennett is more of a playmaking wing. a Bennett-Crosby-"Crosby's Neal" line would really be something to marvel at. but i don't think Bennett is the "Crosby's Neal" candidate. as i see it, he's in his own competition with himself (and Hemsky is probably the only other guy on the horizon). put another way, if Bennett proves himself and the line is Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett, i still think Shero will be on the lookout for "Crosby's Neal."

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01-08-2013, 12:33 AM
  #53
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By "Crosby's Neal" I mean a winger to form a duo with Sid. Bennett doesn't have to be "Neal" or to be a finisher, he just need to use the space Crosby and Kunitz will create for him and feed them the puck. I'd love to see Sid play with a playmaker, that would give him so much space on the ice. Sid finding open space when someone else is controlling the play? That could be deadly! That's why I always thought Martin St-Louis would be a perfect winger for Sid.

Kunitz forechecks, Bennett can keep up with Sid and create some play by himself and Sid is Sid. I'd love to see that. I'm not comparing Beau to St-Louis, but I think he could bring some of the things St-Louis would.

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01-08-2013, 07:16 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
He might not be as bad a reclamation project as guys like Latendresse and Kulemin, but he is an underachiever. He doesn't produce way more than Dupuis and he doesn't bring the other things Dupuis brings to the table. Why waste assets on a guy that isn't really an upgrade? Because he has potential? Hell, you can sign underachiever with potential every year, no need to waste assets on them, especially not usefull assets like Niskanen. Our defense is thin and Niskanen looks good in our system.

We need to find Sid his "Neal", not feed him another average guy. Bennett could be that guy, I prefer giving him a shot than trading for Kulemin or Setoguchi.
He produces at a consistent 20 goal pace. I mean, it's one thing to want more from a player, but it's quite another to be a reclamation project. A reclamation project is a guy who is completely devoid of value. Setoguchi is not, and by the asking price I've heard for Kulemin, he certainly is not. They are guys that just had average years.

Part of the reason those guys don't produce as much as Dupuis is because they aren't glued to Sidney Crosby's hip. Obviously last year is sort of an outlier for Dupuis as he's never done that, and we'd be incredibly luck if he ever did that again.

You give Setoguchi, in particular, a season with Crosby, and I'd put money that you'd see him be a 30-30 guy. I look at Setoguchi in a very similar way that I looked at James Neal. He's a guy who has produced, but if put with the right center, he could absolutely explode offensively. Not mentioning, Setoguchi is a right handed shot that could work the left wall of the powerplay.

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Originally Posted by Lost in Crafton View Post
"Crosby's Neal." i thought it was a well-defined concept but it looks like it's eroded over time to mean anybody acquired to play with Crosby. the term means more than just a competent top six winger. it even means more than a talent top six winger. i'd argue that Setoguchi is as close to the realization of the concept as you can get. an under-preforming and thus undervalued finisher who is also competent forechecker, who has consistently flashed his skill and on occasion has "put it all together." that was Neal before the trade and that's Seto now.

Bennett is more of a playmaking wing. a Bennett-Crosby-"Crosby's Neal" line would really be something to marvel at. but i don't think Bennett is the "Crosby's Neal" candidate. as i see it, he's in his own competition with himself (and Hemsky is probably the only other guy on the horizon). put another way, if Bennett proves himself and the line is Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett, i still think Shero will be on the lookout for "Crosby's Neal."
I think this is very well said.

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01-08-2013, 08:28 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
He might not be as bad a reclamation project as guys like Latendresse and Kulemin, but he is an underachiever. He doesn't produce way more than Dupuis and he doesn't bring the other things Dupuis brings to the table. Why waste assets on a guy that isn't really an upgrade? Because he has potential? Hell, you can sign underachiever with potential every year, no need to waste assets on them, especially not usefull assets like Niskanen. Our defense is thin and Niskanen looks good in our system.

We need to find Sid his "Neal", not feed him another average guy. Bennett could be that guy, I prefer giving him a shot than trading for Kulemin or Setoguchi.
I don't care what the stats say. Setoguchi is a way better scoring line forward than Pascal Dupuis. Watch him play sometime. You mention the extra things Dupuis brings to the table but ignore that Setoguchi is bigger, more physical, more creative, could help the powerplay and all around a more talented player. James Neal also didn't produce much more than Dupuis at one point. Then he was given an elite center and extra time and space. Now he is opening up space for Malkin that he has never had because he is too talented to just ignore. Setoguchi, imo, would have that kind of an effect for Sid. He is simply too good to ignore. He might not become a 40 goal guy like Neal, but he'll make space for Sid just by being talented. Teams can go all in on covering Crosby when Dupuis and Cooke or TK are his wings. They will let those guys try to beat them while they shut down Sid. Setoguchi is too good for that.

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01-08-2013, 08:41 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Oh...you've been downgraded

And this team sort of got away with what it was doing. I mean, the regime under MT, you wanted guys like Gill and Scuderi. That's how the team played. DB comes in, and rightfully wants to push the pace, you need the personnel to do that. I mean, a guy like Gill or Scuderi who can play that way and push the pace...you're looking at a 7 million dollar defenseman.

Maybe DB tones the system down, or he does some creative things to be able to keep the pace of his gameplan, but have a stalwart back there to keep things clean.
And maybe I win the lottery . . .

BTW, put me in the like the Douglas Murray deal camp. Would help make us a little tougher to play against, as you said.

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01-08-2013, 08:52 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
He produces at a consistent 20 goal pace. I mean, it's one thing to want more from a player, but it's quite another to be a reclamation project. A reclamation project is a guy who is completely devoid of value. Setoguchi is not, and by the asking price I've heard for Kulemin, he certainly is not. They are guys that just had average years.

Part of the reason those guys don't produce as much as Dupuis is because they aren't glued to Sidney Crosby's hip. Obviously last year is sort of an outlier for Dupuis as he's never done that, and we'd be incredibly luck if he ever did that again.

You give Setoguchi, in particular, a season with Crosby, and I'd put money that you'd see him be a 30-30 guy. I look at Setoguchi in a very similar way that I looked at James Neal. He's a guy who has produced, but if put with the right center, he could absolutely explode offensively. Not mentioning, Setoguchi is a right handed shot that could work the left wall of the powerplay.



I think this is very well said.
You know, I sit here and read all of this, and it's pretty clear that people are split into two camps:

One camp says, unless you're getting a top flight player, don't ever offer more than TK, Tangradi, Strait, and a 2nd.

One camp says you've got to give to get, and sometimes you're not just getting when you acquire the top end guy.

Put me in the latter camp: I see guys like Seto and Kumy as head and shoulders above any winger option on the Pens not named Neal and on a comparable level as Kunitz.

But, that's an issue of evaluation.

More important for me is this: Sid and Geno are no longer teenagers. Geno's knee injury was a fluke, but Sid's concussions really should impress upon people that another decade with those two in pretty good health would be a gift but shouldn't be an expectation.

I am loathe to deal high end prospects. I am sure that I, like everyone else, falls too in love with some prospects or over/undervalue a prospective acquisition.

That said, I'm sick and tired of reading all of this 'so and so is the second coming of ______ and the guy you're looking at is no better than TK' BS, because it's that type of logic that explains how Shero worked at the 2010 and 2012 deadlines.

Me . . . I want the old Ray Shero back, the guy who knew you had to give to get, the guy who wouldn't shy away from dealing a top pick or top prospect.

Right now . . . all of you people who refuse to deal a top pick or prospect for anything short of an elite winger on a long term deal, consider this: That pick or prospect, if he actually becomes a significant contributor, almost assuredly won't make that significant contribution until Geno turns 30.

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01-08-2013, 10:18 AM
  #58
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All correct. I'd be happy to see him on this team going into the playoffs. We've seen how useless mobility without sandpaper is on this D the last couple years.
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
And that's where I come from too. Hal Gill, year after year, proves how effective guys like him are in the playoffs when refs swallow their whistles, and he has like 5 years on Murray. And let's be honest, no one is slower than Gill.

You put Murray out there in crucial situations, and just have him keep the box completely clear because you cannot stand in there without him viciously hammering on you. We need to become harder to play against defensively. I think Shero solved the problem offensively bringing in Glass. He'll help the cause tremendously.
Bolded parts. Agree 100%.

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01-08-2013, 11:45 AM
  #59
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At trade deadline (If Martin doesn't improve)

Paul Martin, Tyler Kennedy and a 2nd round draft pick/decent prospect.

for

Jame McGinn and Jan Hejda.

I've mention this before, but I think it's a fair deal.

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01-08-2013, 03:04 PM
  #60
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Bortuzzo can do those things, doesn't cost anything and knows our system. Unless we're trading for a sure fire upgrade over Martin in the top 4. I say we stand pat on D.
Even when it costs little to acquire him? Neither TK or Strait will be vital to the Pens long term success. TK - because well what you see is what you get. Strait... he has more upside than TK, but when you look at what we have in the pipe over the next 1-4 years (what 5 or 6 quality prospects?), he's easily expendable. I think Strait has more upside than Bort, but that Bort has the size that our D is lacking that I would be hesitant to part with.

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01-08-2013, 03:10 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
Guys like Setoguchi and Kulemin aren't automatic upgrades on what we already have, they are reclamation projects. You don't waste assets on those. You do like Ottawa did and you sign a guy like Guillaume Latendresse. If Seto and Kulemin are all that we can get, I hope we keep our assets and stick with what we have.

With Kulemin and Setoguchi? They could continue to suck just like they have done for the past two years. I would sign them as UFAs, but I wouldn't trade for them, not at the cost of guys like Nisaken and Kennedy.
Except that what we have hasn't been able to get the job done. Part of that is a lack of depth up front. Teams are able to shut down Crosby/Malkin and we're screwed. So if we're able to move someone from our talented blueline for a forward who's able to add some skill/grit to the top 6, we absolutely have to take that chance - even if it doesn't pan out.

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01-08-2013, 03:13 PM
  #62
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Except that what we have hasn't been able to get the job done. Part of that is a lack of depth up front. Teams are able to shut down Crosby/Malkin and we're screwed. So if we're able to move someone from our talented blueline for a forward who's able to add some skill/grit to the top 6, we absolutely have to take that chance - even if it doesn't pan out.
What talented blueline? We have great propsects on defense, but we don't have a great defense in the NHL. We can't sacrifice Niskanen for depth upfront. Not this year, anyways. If we are to sacrifice some of our prospects, it'd better be for more than a "maybe he can be the next Neal" guy like Setoguchi or a "I had one good season and a slew of mediocre ones" like Kulemin.

I can get the appeal of Setoguchi, but people wanting Kulemin are overrating him based on one good season.

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01-08-2013, 03:20 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
At trade deadline (If Martin doesn't improve)

Paul Martin, Tyler Kennedy and a 2nd round draft pick/decent prospect.

for

Jame McGinn and Jan Hejda.

I've mention this before, but I think it's a fair deal.
Would do that in a heartbeat!

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01-08-2013, 03:31 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
What talented blueline? We have great propsects on defense, but we don't have a great defense in the NHL. We can't sacrifice Niskanen for depth upfront. Not this year, anyways. If we are to sacrifice some of our prospects, it'd better be for more than a "maybe he can be the next Neal" guy like Setoguchi or a "I had one good season and a slew of mediocre ones" like Kulemin.

I can get the appeal of Setoguchi, but people wanting Kulemin are overrating him based on one good season.
So who are you trading and for what player?

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01-08-2013, 04:07 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
What talented blueline? We have great propsects on defense, but we don't have a great defense in the NHL. We can't sacrifice Niskanen for depth upfront. Not this year, anyways. If we are to sacrifice some of our prospects, it'd better be for more than a "maybe he can be the next Neal" guy like Setoguchi or a "I had one good season and a slew of mediocre ones" like Kulemin.

I can get the appeal of Setoguchi, but people wanting Kulemin are overrating him based on one good season.
I think Kumy would explode with Crosby, but like I keep trying to tell people who want him for a nickel bag, Burke will not move him for anything less than an overpayment.

Maybe if he has another bad year, Burke may consider moving him next deadline, before he becomes a UFA.

I suspect Shero will land a winger none of us thought of, much like he did with Kunitz.

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01-08-2013, 04:17 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
At trade deadline (If Martin doesn't improve)

Paul Martin, Tyler Kennedy and a 2nd round drafpick/decent prospect.

for

Jame McGinn and Jan Hejda.

I've mention this before, but I think it's a fair deal.
honestly, Shero should target all Sharks wingers past and present:

Clowe, Setoguchi, MichŠlek, McGinn, Heatley.

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01-08-2013, 04:19 PM
  #67
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honestly, Shero should target all Sharks wingers past and present:

Clowe, Setoguchi, MichŠlek, McGinn, Heatley.
I agree with all except Heatley. Too big of a cap hit, too slow, not gritty, and has lost a lot of the scoring touch he once had. Just looks very un-inspired on the ice

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01-08-2013, 06:38 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think Kumy would explode with Crosby, but like I keep trying to tell people who want him for a nickel bag, Burke will not move him for anything less than an overpayment.

Maybe if he has another bad year, Burke may consider moving him next deadline, before he becomes a UFA.

I suspect Shero will land a winger none of us thought of, much like he did with Kunitz.
1. Kumy would explode with Sid, in the same way Kunitz exploded with Geno. But, each fits even better with the other. Side note: It is laughable to consider what some people think the price tag will be. That said, I'd pay it, because you know what he can do with Geno, you can speculate what he'd do with Sid, and that's one cap friendly deal for the next two seasons.

2. I expect him to land us ONE winger. I'd be thrilled-- along with Sid, Geno, and others, I think-- if he landed two. Sid and Geno, both with a pair of good wingers each . . . good luck dealing with that over a seven game series.

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01-09-2013, 01:26 AM
  #69
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only trade i'd make is any 2 of our prospects for a legit #1 dman.

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01-09-2013, 02:04 AM
  #70
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I agree with all except Heatley. Too big of a cap hit, too slow, not gritty, and has lost a lot of the scoring touch he once had. Just looks very un-inspired on the ice
Heatley was one of the best players (if not the best) on the Wild last year. Maybe he won't hit 50 goals again but he only has 1 more season left on his contract after this one. That is easily affordable, especially if Martin moves somewhere else.

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01-09-2013, 03:12 AM
  #71
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Hard to imagine that Minnesota won't run with their big guns this year to see where it takes them, and thus only consider Heatley as a potential trade-pawn for next year when they will have bigger cap-challenges than now (depending more than anything on what happens with Backstrom).

In any case, if Minnesota are now a team spending to the cap, they can keep Heatley with relative ease if they want (considering the salary coming off the books), and he should be cheaper on his next contract if they want to retain him further.

Saying all that.... whereas Heatley would likely be lethal with Kunitz and Crosby, I do not want to even entertain the thought of acquiring an elite winger who isn't a RH shot. If Heatley proves money on the PP, it will only happen at the expense of Neal - and the reverse. Considering our needs, he is too expensive not to be considered a luxury we can do without.

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