HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > By The Numbers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
By The Numbers Hockey Analytics... the Final Frontier. Explore strange new worlds, to seek out new algorithms, to boldly go where no one has gone before.

Is the ability to stay healthy a skill?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-08-2013, 01:22 PM
  #1
Doctor No
Retired
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 23,451
vCash: 500
Is the ability to stay healthy a skill?

I claim that the ability to stay healthy and on the ice is a skill, just as much as shooting the puck, passing the puck, or stopping the puck. Moreover, certain players have shown a consistent ability to play, while others have shown the opposite.

Am I off base here? This is related to some "on pace" arguments in the main NHL board.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 01:34 PM
  #2
SmellOfVictory
Registered User
 
SmellOfVictory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,923
vCash: 114
I kind of agree, but it's what I'd consider a fairly weak attribute in comparison to the other ones. It gives a player the ability to contribute more over the long term, but it's unlikely to affect an individual game's outcome, while the other attributes affect both (strength, speed, individual skills, etc). For the most part it seems to be recognized that "on pace" is less valuable than hitting an actual season's worth of production (or close to it), so I think physiological sturdiness is fairly well accounted for as it is.

SmellOfVictory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 01:37 PM
  #3
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,572
vCash: 50
There is some skill involved. There's also skill in playing through injury and being an effective and productive player.


Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 02:33 PM
  #4
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Moron!
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,055
vCash: 500
At a passing glance, my issue would come with the word "skill" - which might end up making it a semantic argument on my end. But the connotation of the word "skill" to me is something that is learned and crafted over time. I wouldn't necessarily call staying healthy a "skill" per se. Condition, trait, characteristic, I don't know the right word. But I don't feel if "skill" is the correct framework given the other things that are confidently defined as "skills", in my opinion.

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 02:51 PM
  #5
steveott
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 200
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I claim that the ability to stay healthy and on the ice is a skill .
you can say that durability is kinda attribute like vision or speed. some guys are just made of glass. sometimes its just a bad luck.

OTOH its everybody's choice how much you want use roids come playoff time (when testing is not allowed). this is the very reason i always prefer regular season and longevity. (and international games EXCEPT canada cups)

what exactly is a "prime time player"??

steveott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 02:58 PM
  #6
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,572
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
At a passing glance, my issue would come with the word "skill" - which might end up making it a semantic argument on my end. But the connotation of the word "skill" to me is something that is learned and crafted over time. I wouldn't necessarily call staying healthy a "skill" per se. Condition, trait, characteristic, I don't know the right word. But I don't feel if "skill" is the correct framework given the other things that are confidently defined as "skills", in my opinion.
I would guess some of it is innate constitution/durability... some of it is learned (how to avoid hits, how to actually pace oneself for a full season, etc.)... some of it is the will to play through injuries when possible... and some of it is pure luck.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 03:07 PM
  #7
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,070
vCash: 500
Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I claim that the ability to stay healthy and on the ice is a skill, just as much as shooting the puck, passing the puck, or stopping the puck. Moreover, certain players have shown a consistent ability to play, while others have shown the opposite.

Am I off base here? This is related to some "on pace" arguments in the main NHL board.
Used to be a teachable skill based on skating technique, body positioning, ice awareness, reading the flow and other factors. The same factors that enhance shooting, passing and stopping the puck.

Citing two examples - Doug Jarvis, smallish with excellent body positioning and Benoit Brunet, 6'0" but with awkward body positioning going to the net and to the boards. Jarvis set Ironman records while Brunet never came close to playing a full season in the NHL.

Since the introduction of synthetics and hard plastics to equipment this has changed. The original purpose of equipment - protecting a player has changed to include punishing the opposition. So there is a trade-off between proper technique, protecting vulnerability and consequences.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 03:30 PM
  #8
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 10,368
vCash: 50
I would say that staying healthy is a combination of skill, natural talent/build of body and luck.

Some guys have bad luck, but guys like Forsberg and Lindros should get some negatives about being out of the game. The "on pace" argument is weakest on players like them, cause the playing style basically caused them miss the games.

They might have been able to play whole seasons with the cost of effectiveness. So it would have evened out in the end. IMO.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 03:43 PM
  #9
MrJonas
Registered User
 
MrJonas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,218
vCash: 500
The ability to stay healthy is a trait. A skill is something you execute.

MrJonas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 04:15 PM
  #10
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
 
RandV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,469
vCash: 50
Just look at Patrick Kane surviving in the league as a scrawny teenager.

RandV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 05:31 PM
  #11
wgknestrick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,943
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I would say that staying healthy is a combination of skill, natural talent/build of body and luck.
And HGH

wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 05:56 PM
  #12
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,881
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I would say that staying healthy is a combination of skill, natural talent/build of body and luck.

Some guys have bad luck, but guys like Forsberg and Lindros should get some negatives about being out of the game. The "on pace" argument is weakest on players like them, cause the playing style basically caused them miss the games.

They might have been able to play whole seasons with the cost of effectiveness. So it would have evened out in the end. IMO.
Same applies to Crosby.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 06:28 PM
  #13
LeBlondeDemon10
10 AM Its Automatic
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,801
vCash: 500
I think it used to be a skill. In today's game everyone hits and everyone is a target, never mind the cheap shots. With no more enforcers in the league, everyone is fair game. Not so many years ago, many players did not train in the off season and would use camp to get into shape. Today's players do much more than just skating to build and maintain their bodies; its almost a given that you show up for camp in top condition and have worked on certain weaknesses in the off-season. Also, a tremendous amount of luck is involved. The shot that Crosby took from Steckel was cheap yet somewhat preventable. But a player cannot always be 100 % ready for every hit. Today's equipment appears to be causing a lot more injuries (if Steckel is wearing an older version of elbow or shoulder pads, isCrosby's injury as serious?) But I do not know what man games missed looked like 30 years ago compared to today. My guess is that its much higher today. However, take Lemieux. His getting cancer was not a hockey related injury, but were his back problems? Was he not taking training seriously enough or was there a more complex problem with his back?

LeBlondeDemon10 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 06:35 PM
  #14
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJonas View Post
The ability to stay healthy is a trait. A skill is something you execute.
Ya, I think thats very well put. Its both an innate & learned trait, psychological, issues that have much to do with preparedness & conditioning, rest, nutrition. Due to the nature of the game however the potential for injury can only be ameliorated so much, never completely removed, and as C58 illustrates above, hockey skill sets combined with equipment factors into the equation considerably. Temperament, any propensities towards recklessness, genealogical & physiological constructs, dumb luck, all these things & more take it far from the realms of just "skill set" alone I believe.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 06:40 PM
  #15
Richie10
Registered User
 
Richie10's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,534
vCash: 500
I wouldn't necessarily call it a "skill" but it is definitely an attribute in any professional athlete worthy of praise. Hell, Gordie Howe himself built an entire HOF career on not only his skill (which was formidable) but his almost inhuman durability.

Look at all the greats across all sports. For the most part, they all enjoyed long, relatively injury free careers. There's something to be said of any athlete's ability to avoid major injury.

Richie10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 09:15 PM
  #16
almostawake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,189
vCash: 500
Off the top of my head I see at least four contributing factors to a player staying healthy.

1) How recklessly they play the game. Beyond just how physical they are, I also think of this in terms of how often a player takes risks by going to the front of the net, or holding on to the puck a second too long to open up a passing lane, or continuing to accelerate through the neutral zone despite the fact they've bobbled the puck and have their head down, etc.

I think Lindros is a classic example of a guy that was very reckless, on both counts. When he was the hammer he was often throwing his body around with little attention paid to exactly how he was making contact. And on the other side it was the nail far too often because he either didn't care to ease off when he had his head down, or never learnt how at the lower levels because his opposition was never really large enough to actually hurt him.

I think in today's NHL there's a lot of bangers that are good examples, Tanner Glass, Colin Fraser, Jared Boll. Guys that know that they're not in the NHL if they're not being somewhat reckless with their bodies. On the other side I think guys like David Krejci and Ales Hemsky are good examples of guys that are reckless by just how often they misanticipate a play or hang onto the puck too long.

2) How good a player is at deterring the opposition from playing recklessly (or dirty) against them. Never saw Gordie Howe play, but by all accounts he was a master at this. You may catch him with is head down occasionally, or have an opportunity to really stick it to him but you knew you'd better knock him out of the game or he was going to do a lot worse to you later.

A player that I have seen play that I'd put in this group is Mark Messier. Mess was forever the guy that would bring a knife to a fist fight and then grab a gun after you found a knife. There wasn't really anything that you could do to him that he could figure out a way to do 10 times worse to you in return.

Today there's some that get a bit of extra space and respect, but you can get away with the shear violence you used to. I will say it isn't very often you see someone take a really run at Chara though.

The last to are pretty self explanatory.

3) Ability to heal quickly. I think in this case it has a lot to do with just how focused a player is on the fact that hockey is their job. How well they can stay on a diet, how strictly they follow their recovery exercise regimen, stuff like that.

4) Ability to withstand pain.

almostawake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 09:55 PM
  #17
Porn*
Registered User
 
Porn*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In your nightmares
Country: Israel
Posts: 33,930
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Porn*
many factors...

genetics
style of play
health
nutrition
luck
misc.

Porn* is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2013, 10:25 PM
  #18
LeBlondeDemon10
10 AM Its Automatic
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,801
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, I think thats very well put. Its both an innate & learned trait, psychological, issues that have much to do with preparedness & conditioning, rest, nutrition. Due to the nature of the game however the potential for injury can only be ameliorated so much, never completely removed, and as C58 illustrates above, hockey skill sets combined with equipment factors into the equation considerably. Temperament, any propensities towards recklessness, genealogical & physiological constructs, dumb luck, all these things & more take it far from the realms of just "skill set" alone I believe.
A trait is genetic. It cannot be learned. A behavior is learned. And you really can't change your traits. You can train your physical gifts up to 30%. Therefore, the ability to stay healthy is as much a behavioral factor is it is genetic, but they are not one in the same.

LeBlondeDemon10 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2013, 05:20 AM
  #19
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,070
vCash: 500
Trent McCleary

From January, 20, 2000. Trent McCleary's near fatal injury:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMpC0qWKGlg

Note if he uses proper technique when trying to block the shot - head to the boards/skates to the middle of the ice, Trent McCleary does not get hurt.

Basic shot blocking skill learned by Pee Wee at the latest.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2013, 06:51 AM
  #20
Acallabeth
Play fair, post fair
 
Acallabeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Kemerovo, Russia
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 4,372
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Acallabeth
Whatever doesn't fully depend on a player's ability is not a skill IMO.

Acallabeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2013, 11:04 AM
  #21
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,146
vCash: 500
Avoiding risky situations to the detriment of opportunities to help one's team.... yeah it's a skill.

I prefer the Tony Granato, Zigmund Palffy, Petr Forsberg and Ian Laperierre types who exhibited balls-to-the-wall style that displayed grit, determination, sacrifice and in-the-moment total commitment to the play at hand. Warriors often go down in battle. But man, do they do it in style!

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2013, 12:32 PM
  #22
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,572
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Avoiding risky situations to the detriment of opportunities to help one's team.... yeah it's a skill.
Except that being able to play more games is an opportunity to help one's team. There are players who avoid risky situations and still get injured... and those that don't avoid them (although may not seek them out) and remain relatively healthy.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2013, 01:15 PM
  #23
Harry Waters
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 154
vCash: 500
I'd say it depends, if that does make any sense.

There are different reasons to get injured: if you ruin your ligaments in your knee just skating and stopping, there is not much that you can do, some people just have bad luck. Best example here might be DiPietro a few years ago - he didn't do different things than most goaltenders, he just got injured by saving pucks (now shouldn't count, you can argue that at some point one should understand when it is enough).

Another way to get hurt is putting yourself at risk in a game situation you could have avoided. Lindros comes to mind, and Taylor Hall could be a case for that category too, although he didn't get his injuries by getting hit; but if he continues to play that reckless, he will get caught again by someone like Kronwall and may get injured. If people can fill a highlight reel of hits just with hits on one player, I think that might be a case of lacking a 'skill', namely the one to keep your head up.

There sure is a reason why there are not many highlights showing Datsyuk getting crushed at center ice.

Harry Waters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2013, 03:39 PM
  #24
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,410
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Same applies to Crosby.
How so? Bad luck or a cheap shot seem to be more of a factor than his playing style. His PPG wouldn't decrease if that's what you are driving at.

daver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2013, 03:40 PM
  #25
Plante
Registered User
 
Plante's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kelowna, B.C
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Tying your laces is more of a skill than staying healthy.

Plante is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:33 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.